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[Vigilant111]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

These posts pretty much rule out the Destroy and Synthesis choices for me. Both choices contribute to the racism against synthetics. Destroy kills them, and Synthesis forces emotions on them.

And controlling synthetics is not racist?

[CosmicGnosis]

Vigilant111 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

These posts pretty much rule out the Destroy and Synthesis choices for me. Both choices contribute to the racism against synthetics. Destroy kills them, and Synthesis forces emotions on them.

And controlling synthetics is not racist?

Control Shepard controls the Reapers, not all synthetics. And he becomes a synthetic himself...

[Dr_Extrem]

Bill Casey wrote...

Control has Shepard casually enslaving the Reapers as tools like its no biggie...
Massa Shepard in fact talks about how great it is...

but reapers seem to have no rights.

i liked the reapers, when they were the undisputed bad guys ...

chris was right - the "bad guys turn out to be the good guys"-chliché is overused and has lost its teeth.

[Jadebaby]

This is the way I see synthetics in the ME universe. So he wasn't totally incorrect.

[CosmicGnosis]

I'd really like to see his views on each ending...

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:25 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

If his synthetic characters were supposed to avoid the Pinnochio trope, ME2 EDI was a miss.

[CosmicGnosis]

Still, if some of his ideas were abandoned, are they really relevant to the current endings? Despite his intentions, the geth and EDI do end up wanting to understand organics, and the only way they truly can is by gaining emotions.

[DeinonSlayer]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Still, if some of his ideas were abandoned, are they really relevant to the current endings? Despite his intentions, the geth and EDI do end up wanting to understand organics, and the only way they truly can is by gaining emotions.

Which of course can only be achieved through the application of Reaper tech (AKA space magic) in one form or another.

[SpamBot2000]

Interesting.

[katamuro]

CynicalShep wrote...

Makes me wonder. If you have writers like this and you let them do their job without much meddling would the game really sell worse? Every single idea of his ended up being better than the final product (imho). Does going for the "cool" really sell more copies?

It sold to people who never played ME3. Same people who player Gears of War. So they wanted "cool" things. And to appease the people who treated it like a mindless shooter they did that. Hence the mode when you dont choose anything. 
Basically all the people who played it before bought it thinking it would be good and the people who never played it bought it as it seemed like GoW. Or some other similar game where action and "cool" comes before plot.

[In Exile]

I think this line is quite interesting:

the version I'd hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races)

This is in relation to what the reapers are. Certainly it fits with the ME1 theme much better.

This line is interesting as well:

But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed
with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn't make any sense to me -- to
be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth's whole schtick is --
to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we
understand how (they) affect you." All I could do was downplay the
required "obsession" as much as I could.

Always thought the Shepard infatuation didn't really fit with anything.

And I think this would have been a much more interesting ending choice:

I had written harder science into EDI's dialogue there. The Reapers were
using nanotech disassemblers to perform "destructive analysis" on
humans, with the intent of learning how to build a Reaper body that
could upload their minds intact. Once this was complete, humans
throughout the galaxy would be rounded up to have their personalities
and memories forcibly uploaded into the Reaper's memory banks. (You can
still hear some suggestions of this in the background chatter during
Legion's acquisition mission, which I wrote.) There was nothing about
Reapers being techno-organic or partly built out of human corpses --
they were pure tech.

Immortality? Perfection? Maybe. Certainly would have made that lead to speculation and interesting discussions.

Modifié par In Exile, 13 janvier 2013 - 11:17 .

[Robhuzz]

^ Reapers being the post singularity evolution of organic races would fit better and it would make the 'we are beyond your comprehension' line A LOT more accurate. Organics as shown in the ME universe are a long way from technological singularity, whether or not turning every organic into a machine/organic hybrid is something that would inevitably happen... I am not convinced but that's beside the point.

At the time we speak to sovereign, they ARE beyond our comprehension in that they ARE the pinnacle of evolution, there is nothing beyond hem. We simply aren't there yet and so we cannot understand. They also are imposing a kind of order on evolution by 'allowing' organics to skip everything until their technological singularity and going straight to machine/organic hybrids.

[katamuro]

In Exile wrote...

I think this line is quite interesting:

the version I'd hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races)

This is in relation to what the reapers are. Certainly it fits with the ME1 theme much better.

This line is interesting as well:

But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed
with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn't make any sense to me -- to
be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth's whole schtick is --
to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we
understand how (they) affect you." All I could do was downplay the
required "obsession" as much as I could.

Always thought the Shepard infatuation didn't really fit with anything.

And I think this would have been a much more interesting ending choice:

I had written harder science into EDI's dialogue there. The Reapers were
using nanotech disassemblers to perform "destructive analysis" on
humans, with the intent of learning how to build a Reaper body that
could upload their minds intact. Once this was complete, humans
throughout the galaxy would be rounded up to have their personalities
and memories forcibly uploaded into the Reaper's memory banks. (You can
still hear some suggestions of this in the background chatter during
Legion's acquisition mission, which I wrote.) There was nothing about
Reapers being techno-organic or partly built out of human corpses --
they were pure tech.

Immortality? Perfection? Maybe. Certainly would have made that lead to speculation and interesting discussions.

that would actually make sense. the fact that they keep telling that they are the ultimate form, the salvation and nation upon themselves. All that would nicely tie in to that explanation.

[Someone With Mass]

I always thought that the Reapers being part organic was kind of stupid that way.

Mostly because the organic components will limit them in some ways, like cellular degeneration.

Not to mention that they wouldn't need the whole organic body if they're just after their minds.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 13 janvier 2013 - 11:25 .

[ZLurps]

I recommend everyone to check rest of L'Etoile's post via link in OP.

This explain some things that happened in production. Higher ups meddling with people who actually knew what they were doing. Sure Karpyshyn and E'Toile had disagreements, but both of them were really involved with the world of ME. Each added something from theirs in the world and result created very dynamic world that had depth, from luxury of Citadel embassies to organ trafficking, high level crime, etc. and made experience very plausible. This is why I liked also Citadel of ME3 so much, it's contrast to what is happening in the other parts of galaxy, so higher ups meddling with ME3 didn't ruin everything after all, but I digress.

Even when E'Toile and Karpyshyn disagreed about something, they still wanted to create world that is consistent. That someone chimed in and added a bit like Legion being obsessed with Shepard because s/he thought that would be cool regardless that it didn't make any sense how AI's and Geth were established earlier pretty much confirms my suspicions that trouble in BW didn't started during production of ME3, but production of ME2.

[Indy_S]

I guess the game I wanted Mass Effect 3 to be was written by Chris l'Etoile. I would've liked more hard science. And accepted that motivation for the Reapers.

[ZLurps]

Robhuzz wrote...

^ Reapers being the post singularity evolution of organic races would fit better and it would make the 'we are beyond your comprehension' line A LOT more accurate. Organics as shown in the ME universe are a long way from technological singularity, whether or not turning every organic into a machine/organic hybrid is something that would inevitably happen... I am not convinced but that's beside the point.

At the time we speak to sovereign, they ARE beyond our comprehension in that they ARE the pinnacle of evolution, there is nothing beyond hem. We simply aren't there yet and so we cannot understand. They also are imposing a kind of order on evolution by 'allowing' organics to skip everything until their technological singularity and going straight to machine/organic hybrids.

I wondered if this would be the direction they would take back before ME3 was released. IMO there's sure were lot of very interesting options how to put this in game, how to make great story, but instead we get something nonsensical.

Modifié par ZLurps, 13 janvier 2013 - 11:33 .

[Someone With Mass]

ZLurps wrote...

Even when E'Toile and Karpyshyn disagreed about something, they still wanted to create world that is consistent. That someone chimed in and added a bit like Legion being obsessed with Shepard because s/he thought that would be cool regardless that it didn't make any sense how AI's and Geth were established earlier pretty much confirms my suspicions that trouble in BW didn't started during production of ME3, but production of ME2.

And that person really doesn't deserve to get paid more than these writers, let alone be calling the shots with such a simplistic mindset.

[matt-bassist]

"you hate and fear us? ok we will go over there so we dont bother you" anyone read that in Legions voice?

[paul165]

An excellent read on Mass Effect AI before someone decided that EDI had to be Data with added degrading and creepy.

I can almost feel my headcanon expanding.

[CynicalShep]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

These posts pretty much rule out the Destroy and Synthesis choices for me. Both choices contribute to the racism against synthetics. Destroy kills them, and Synthesis forces emotions on them.

And controlling synthetics is not racist?

Control Shepard controls the Reapers, not all synthetics. And he becomes a synthetic himself...

You know that now. Imagine you're bleeding to death on the Citadel and a holo tells you that he controls the reapers but if you go electrocute yourself in that corner he/it will surrender the control to the Reapers to you. I would have probably gathered all the energy I could muster for a facepalm

katamuro wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Makes me wonder. If you have writers like this and you let them do their job without much meddling would the game really sell worse? Every single idea of his ended up being better than the final product (imho). Does going for the "cool" really sell more copies?

It sold to people who never played ME3. Same people who player Gears of War. So they wanted "cool" things. And to appease the people who treated it like a mindless shooter they did that. Hence the mode when you dont choose anything. 
Basically all the people who played it before bought it thinking it would be good and the people who never played it bought it as it seemed like GoW. Or some other similar game where action and "cool" comes before plot.

Well, polishing the story and adding that particular mode would've gotten them two fanbases instead of half (or whatever it is that they got). Quite frankly, ME3 is far from the best shooter on the market so they picked the worst option available. They failed to make a quality shooter and they failed to make a quality RPG. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed a good deal of the game but it was still much worse than I expected it to be (and it could have been).

[ZLurps]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Even when E'Toile and Karpyshyn disagreed about something, they still wanted to create world that is consistent. That someone chimed in and added a bit like Legion being obsessed with Shepard because s/he thought that would be cool regardless that it didn't make any sense how AI's and Geth were established earlier pretty much confirms my suspicions that trouble in BW didn't started during production of ME3, but production of ME2.

And that person really doesn't deserve to get paid more than these writers, let alone be calling the shots with such a simplistic mindset.

Yeah, but if we go to ME3 and how it turned out, take how Reaper plot was treated it's clear that medding didn't stop after ME2. Now what is really interesting is what Ray Muzyka wrote in his blog, "I also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the development team."

That might be him just being a company man though. Then, if BioWare was still using the structure they used before merging with EA, it get's more interesting.

There has been a lot of discussion about "Artistic integrity" but remember who was the first person from BW to pull the "artistic choise" card? It was Christina Norman regarding "iconic" outfits of M2 characters.

Modifié par ZLurps, 13 janvier 2013 - 01:06 .

[CynicalShep]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Still, if some of his ideas were abandoned, are they really relevant to the current endings? Despite his intentions, the geth and EDI do end up wanting to understand organics, and the only way they truly can is by gaining emotions.

That is not true. They understand organics just fine, they just aren't like organics. They know what the concept of fear or anger is, they know how it affects humans and what it can cause, they just don't feel it. They don't have to gain emotions to understand us, they have to gain emotions if they want to emmulate us - that's a pretty big difference and in my opinion the point Chris was trying to make

[Someone With Mass]

ZLurps wrote...

There has been a lot of discussion about "Artistic integrity" but remember who was the first person from BW to pull the "artistic choise" card? It was Christina Norman regarding "iconic" outfits of M2 characters.

Yeah, but that had something to do with actual art and it didn't affect the story, so I think it was just fine to pull that card. If they want to go in a certain direction, that's their choice.

However, with a story, there's a need for consistency, which they didn't do as well, which I believe is because of that simplistic "oh, that's cool" way of thinking. That they simply went for something because it looked or sounded neat and didn't care so much for the consistency.

[ZLurps]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

There has been a lot of discussion about "Artistic integrity" but remember who was the first person from BW to pull the "artistic choise" card? It was Christina Norman regarding "iconic" outfits of M2 characters.

Yeah, but that had something to do with actual art and it didn't affect the story, so I think it was just fine to pull that card. If they want to go in a certain direction, that's their choice.

However, with a story, there's a need for consistency, which they didn't do as well, which I believe is because of that simplistic "oh, that's cool" way of thinking. That they simply went for something because it looked or sounded neat and didn't care so much for the consistency.

Use the brain Luke!

It could be said that Jack's tattos contributed to her story. What comes to Samara's cleavage and increased cup size of Liara, I really don't see how they improved anything. They were added to make game look more appealing, easier to sell to people who can't/won't have access to non-polygon stuff.

Hole in Legion made it look like platform were went through some rough places. According to E'Toile idea for that and N7 patch came from...