212 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

TMA LIVE wrote...
How is posting something out of context critism?

I've expressed a dissapproval of a writing process where concepts are thrown in for the sake of doing them instead of them being part of the establish plot, and have a clear illustration that this was indeed part of the writing process(refer to "brave new world" etc) at some point and contributed to the current design, a design which I find flawed as a result. Hence I'm critiquing the method due to the material it spawned.

[ZLurps]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
Isn't what you're posting the very reason why Gaider doesn't really look at the forums now a days?

What you mean the truth? ZING!

Seriously though in case you haven't noticed they've made it pretty clear my "toxic" opinion is flat out being ignored already, I doubt I'm hurting any feelings. And if I wasn't being ignored calling me mean is a terrible response to criticism.

How is posting something out of context critism?

I tried to figure out how it's out of context in this topic, but I don't get it. Only problem I see is that Greylycantrope assumes it was Walters calling the shots, when we don't if that really happened and probably never will.

What comes to Gaider, what this has to do with him? He is writer of DA series.

Modifié par ZLurps, 13 janvier 2013 - 08:46 .

[CynicalShep]

Reorte wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Exactly.

In terms of evolving to something greater, they can already do that. There's no need for them to emulate emotions beyond trying to be more like organics, which is a rather flawed choice in my opinion, since organics' emotions are flawed. They're making them behave irrationally at times, while the machines are operating on the more logical choice. They'd only lose on trying to level with the organics.

Same goes for understanding the deeper meaning behind the emotions. They have little to nothing to gain on it. It'd simply be more information to consider at best.

For a character like Data, it makes sense for him to trying to be more human and understand emotions, since he's an android. EDI is not. The geth are not. It'd do nothing to serve their purpose in life and they already know what that is.

If it seems like emotion is it emotion? The scale of the geth's reaction to the quarians sounds rather like panic and lashing back. Also, without emotion there's no motivation to do anything other than simply sit there. Emotions might provoke irrational actions but they also provide drives.

What? Why? They think much faster than us and self-preservation is paramount. A bunch of ships starts shooting at them and they all mobilize and fight back. I have no idea what that has to do with panic

[Xellith]

Can we have a ME3 remake now?

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Can you please give examples? The Catalyst is flawed because it was programmed by organics, not because of the writing quality.

Still doesn´t explain horrible contradictions.

[xsdob]

Am I the only one in these forums who doesn't hate what they did with the geth? It was a means of survival, nothing more. The reason they upgraded themselves was the quarians attacking their network and compromising their ability to build a consensus. If the didn't upload the data, the geth would have been killed or easily taken over by the reapers, because the programs the quarians had used to attack the geth, I belive from talking to the admirals, was a virus type program and not one with a shut off switch.

So, it was let the geth get wiped out, or change them so that the virus no longer affected them. And in that context, I view legions actions justified because he and many other geth have shown that continued existence is their main prerogative.

[GreyLycanTrope]

ZLurps wrote...
I tried to figure out how it's out of context in this topic, but I don't get it. Only problem I see is that Greylycantrope assumes it was Walters calling the shots, when we don't and won't know if that really happened.

What comes to Gaider, what this has to do with him? He is writer of DA series.

Never said he was calling the shots, that was Hudson as far as I know, but Mac was the lead writer most of the idea presented have to meet with his approval(for the script anyway not the final product) in some way before they get worked into the story. Not to say everything they did was bad, Anderson's last exchange with Shepard for example, but when they started to work in concepts with little regard for the already established context of the narrative they did something wrong, regardless of who the idea orginated with.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 13 janvier 2013 - 08:55 .

[ZLurps]

Greylycantrope wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
I tried to figure out how it's out of context in this topic, but I don't get it. Only problem I see is that Greylycantrope assumes it was Walters calling the shots, when we don't and won't know if that really happened.

What comes to Gaider, what this has to do with him? He is writer of DA series.

Never said he was calling the shots, that was Hudson as far as I know, but Mac was the lead writer most of the idea presented have to meet with his approval(for the script anyway not the final product) in some way before they get worked into the story. Not to say everything they did was bad, Anderson's last exchange with Shepard for example, but when they started to work in concepts with little regard for the already established context of the narrative they did something wrong, regardless of who the idea orginated with.

Or he could be a guy who can make things work, like I wrote earlier in this topic.

It could be that there were clashes, they went to this direction and everything looked cool, then someone higher in the EA decided that it's not cool after all, re-write. Repets several times and you have graphics guy sitting idle because they don't have what to work with, or they need to redo, some levels. More takes for voice actors, arranging that will take time and in the end, you have a dealine and you need to put together whatever you can, to have anything that can be called an ending.

[ld1449]

TMA LIVE wrote...



Isn't what you're posting the very reason why Gaider doesn't really look at the forums now a days?

Allow me a moment to begin caring about Gaider's hurt feelings.

When you become an entertainer of any kind criticism comes with the territory. And in nearly all instances the ones critisizing your work are right to varrying degrees.

If he can't accept that people do not like being told that their decisions will affect the world, only to realize that they're really just playing Gaider's sing along story (Dragon age 2) then that's largely more his problem than mine. I loose nothing if he chooses not to spend time here. He's the one that looses context on where he potentially failed.

[GreyLycanTrope]

ZLurps wrote...
Or he could be a guy who can make things work, like I wrote earlier in this topic.

It could be that there were clashes, they went to this direction and everything looked cool, then someone higher in the EA decided that it's not cool after all, re-write. Repets several times and you have graphics guy sitting idle because they don't have what to work with, or they need to redo, some levels. More takes for voice actors, arranging that will take time and in the end, you have a dealine and you need to put together whatever you can, to have anything that can be called an ending.

Fair enough but I'm actually hesitant to blame EA for much in terms of creative control, I just don't seem them all that intrested in story lines. Bioware is essentially an investment for them EA provides the funds and a deadline when they hope to profit from said investment. They say "this is how much money we're going to give you for this project and this is the amount of time you have to do it in, now get to work." There probably are some general mandates like them wanting to include MP and a possible number of how many DLCs they want out of a certain game, because they want the product to be competative and that's EA's buisness model but that's as far as I see it going.

Now if you were to say that you don't think the EA buisness model is ineffective and often stiffling for the developers I'd agree, but direct meddling in the creative process just doesn't strike me as tangible.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:23 .

[TMA LIVE]

ZLurps wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
Isn't what you're posting the very reason why Gaider doesn't really look at the forums now a days?

What you mean the truth? ZING!

Seriously though in case you haven't noticed they've made it pretty clear my "toxic" opinion is flat out being ignored already, I doubt I'm hurting any feelings. And if I wasn't being ignored calling me mean is a terrible response to criticism.

How is posting something out of context critism?

I tried to figure out how it's out of context in this topic, but I don't get it. Only problem I see is that Greylycantrope assumes it was Walters calling the shots, when we don't if that really happened and probably never will.

What comes to Gaider, what this has to do with him? He is writer of DA series.

Gaider is mentioned because he wrote a post about how people take what he writes, and twisting it. Misrepresenting it.

[Iakus]

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

This makes sense on why I was never that keen on Ashley in ME3, it just wasn't the same character to me. I really do feel that Mass Effect the trilogy was hurt by the swapping in-out of writers.

Eh she was fine for the first half of the game.  Second half she pretty much went mute, so I can't tell if her character was good or bad.

Well, the unifiorm was bad.  There was a change for no particulara reason if I ever saw one.

[HomerIsLegend]

The evolution of the series is pretty damn clear in my eyes... ME1 they cared about the story/characters and their interactions within a beautifully crafted universe and you can tell that was it's top priority. In ME2 they shifted to having the gameplay/action being the forefront while not completely ignoring the story/characters/rpg aspect. The mix actually was very well done and didn't completely do away with what made the first game so special in the first place.


...and then we got to ME3. While it definitely has it's shining moments it's pretty evident that whatever had made the series special in the first place was completely ignored in favor of cinematics/dramatization and complete focus on the action/shooter dynamics... story be damned.

They might have planned that from the beginning so who knows... but ME1 will always be the game I love the most and for good reason -- writing/story were given top priority over everything else.

[xsdob]

It was an interesting read, I will give it that.

[CronoDragoon]

HomerIsLegend wrote...

The evolution of the series is pretty damn clear in my eyes... ME1 they cared about the story/characters and their interactions within a beautifully crafted universe and you can tell that was it's top priority. In ME2 they shifted to having the gameplay/action being the forefront while not completely ignoring the story/characters/rpg aspect. The mix actually was very well done and didn't completely do away with what made the first game so special in the first place.


...and then we got to ME3. While it definitely has it's shining moments it's pretty evident that whatever had made the series special in the first place was completely ignored in favor of cinematics/dramatization and complete focus on the action/shooter dynamics... story be damned.

They might have planned that from the beginning so who knows... but ME1 will always be the game I love the most and for good reason -- writing/story were given top priority over everything else.

ME1 is the game with the most underwhelming characterization. Half your squadmates are walking codex entries. It's only in ME2 and 3 that the characters begin to flesh out and evolve.

[TMZuk]

It's simply another clear-cut example that the unnamed "higher ups" believe that we as gamers are idiots, and should be force-fed idiotic tropes.

I wonder if the current silence from Bioware staff on the forums indicates that they have realized they are on the wrong track, and are busy figuring out how and where to go from now....

..or if they are sulking in the corner because the rage is not going away?

Modifié par TMZuk, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:59 .

[Trebor1969]

TMZuk wrote...

It's simply another clear-cut example that the unnamed "higher ups" believe that we as gamers are idiots, and should be force-fed idiotic tropes.

I wonder if the current silence from Bioware staff on the forums indicates that they have realized they are on the wrong track, and are busy figuring out how and where to go from now....

..or if they are sulking in the corner because the rage is not going away?

+1

Not there because of the "toxicity in this forum" ( as per some BW people), apprently ignoring problems is the ultimate way to solve it (with a little bit of magic everything is possible)

Modifié par Trebor1969, 13 janvier 2013 - 10:22 .

[HomerIsLegend]

CronoDragoon wrote...


ME1 is the game with the most underwhelming characterization. Half your squadmates are walking codex entries. It's only in ME2 and 3 that the characters begin to flesh out and evolve.

I think you're just confusing the stylistic differences... whether you felt they were just walking codex entries or not we still got introduced to our squaddies and found out what made them tic.  I lost that nostalgic feeling when the VS was tossed aside in favor of TIM's dossier's.  I don't consider that a bad thing really because I still greatly enjoyed ME2 for what it was... even though I wasn't thrilled with the Collectors but I digress.

[Rasofe]

Guys, this is really meta.
You shouldn't ask the author to explain the work to you, and then let that affect your interpretation of the story.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Rasofe wrote...

Guys, this is really meta.
You shouldn't ask the author to explain the work to you, and then let that affect your interpretation of the story.

The ideas presented by the author was my interpratation of the story before hand, it's more confimation than explination. Least to me.

[ZLurps]

Greylycantrope wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
Or he could be a guy who can make things work, like I wrote earlier in this topic.

It could be that there were clashes, they went to this direction and everything looked cool, then someone higher in the EA decided that it's not cool after all, re-write. Repets several times and you have graphics guy sitting idle because they don't have what to work with, or they need to redo, some levels. More takes for voice actors, arranging that will take time and in the end, you have a dealine and you need to put together whatever you can, to have anything that can be called an ending.

Fair enough but I'm actually hesitant to blame EA for much in terms of creative control, I just don't seem them all that intrested in story lines. Bioware is essentially an investment for them EA provides the funds and a deadline when they hope to profit from said investment. They say "this is how much money we're going to give you for this project and this is the amount of time you have to do it in, now get to work." There probably are some general mandates like them wanting to include MP and a possible number of how many DLCs they want out of a certain game, because they want the product to be competative and that's EA's buisness model but that's as far as I see it going.

Now if you were to say that you don't think the EA buisness model is ineffective and often stiffling for the developers I'd agree, but direct meddling in the creative process just doesn't strike me as tangible.

We would know more if we knew who's idea was to bring Christina Norman on board etc. and that's probably not going to happen. Remember ME2 was produced after EA bought BW. and it wouldn't actually be the first time EA does this. Westwood, Origin, who remembers all the studios which were embraced to death via EA. If EA valued the studios and IP's we wouldn't see C&C brand reduced to what it's now, especially in situation where Activision/Blizzard got Starcraft 2 and soon to be released expansion to it. What EA has to competite on RTS market now? Nothing.

MP is forced mandate indeed, ironically because I used to joke about it, but now it's about the best part of ME3 to me, but there are other means to pressure teams to get their product shipped. Say, okay, you can get 3 months more, but then, we really expected this to come out during this season so we cut down your bonuses to cover the losses.

[ZLurps]

[quote]TMA LIVE wrote...

[quote]ZLurps wrote...

How is posting something out of context critism?

[/quote]

I tried to figure out how it's out of context in this topic, but I don't get it. Only problem I see is that Greylycantrope assumes it was Walters calling the shots, when we don't if that really happened and probably never will.

What comes to Gaider, what this has to do with him? He is writer of DA series.
[/quote]

Gaider is mentioned because he wrote a post about how people take what he writes, and twisting it. Misrepresenting it.

[/quote]

I glanced through it and recalled something I read from other place, people being after Gaidar because there's no incenst option in DA2 and some other really weird stuff. I don't know the details because I don't and won't read DA forums.

This forum is hardly sunshine either and sure "boss fitghts are too video gamey" and "artistic integrity" are something people get stuck on when they want to vent, but still.

That said, I don't know how much it would really matter if devs read the board at this point. ME3 is what it is and if BW had something more to say about it they were done that much earlier.

[warblewobble]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Guys, this is really meta.
You shouldn't ask the author to explain the work to you, and then let that affect your interpretation of the story.

The ideas presented by the author was my interpratation of the story before hand, it's more confimation than explination. Least to me.

Well, following the link the OP provided, I did like getting an explanation on why Legion had a stalker crush on Shepard. It never made sense to me and apparently it didn't make sense to the person who had to write it either. Sounds like he basically approached it from the perspective of damage control.

[GreyLycanTrope]

warblewobble wrote...
Well, following the link the OP provided, I did like getting an explanation on why Legion had a stalker crush on Shepard. It never made sense to me and apparently it didn't make sense to the person who had to write it either. Sounds like he basically approached it from the perspective of damage control.

I meant explanation in the flow of the story as a whole. Bascially my perception of synthetics in game after playing ME and reading this has not changed. Reading the authors intention merely reinforces my initial impersion of the works meaning, so from my perspective Chris did a good job presenting his ideas to the audience through his characters despite the occasional hickup like Legion's armor.

[Meltemph]

What I read was - I wanted to create a ME universe that felt real, believable, and truly a place you could get lost in.

What we got with ME3(and parts of ME2) - ME: Michael Bay Edition