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[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Liara's "helping"
-She found some platinum
-She told Shepard about some possible leads

That's about it really

That you know of. 

So she really is doing a lot to help the war.  But we are never, ever, shown this.  So we should just take her word for it?

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

warblewobble wrote...

Again, I think Miranda would be a great choice, but I was asking about ME1 characters.

Finding Oriana shouldn't be the main task of the Shadow Broker during a reaper invasion

Liara was just fine (it's more a "show, don't tell" problem). Her actions were just in the background, like sending shiploads of resources to the Crucible or rescuing asari refugees on Thessia. She's also an expert on Prothean technology, and that's exactly what we needed.

Expert?  She didn't know a damn thing about them.

Are you in a postition to judge that or are you letting bias speak? 

[warblewobble]

Knubbsal wrote...

Sam is a nice character, but Kelly was good for nothing. I never wanted to call her by her first name so she never talked to my Shepard unless there was a mail. "Lets keep this professional" apparently meant "Do not interact on any level" to her. Didn't even see her in ME3. Whatever.

Liara is fine as the Shadow Broker; She's doing way more important things than providing Shepard with missions. If you're reading her log you'll see she's been helping with the war effort far more than anyone else. It's also handy to take the most knowledgeable person with you on missions, not seeing anything weird there. And honestly, I laughed when she pwned Jack, I mean Jennifer.

And lastly, Sam is the communications expert of the Normandy. It wouldn't be very logical for Liara to do Sams job when there wasn't any indication that Sam is incompetent. Do not compare her to Yeoman "you have no new messages" Chambers.

I should clarify, I didn't mean have Liara become the comm officer, I just meant have her be the one giving Shepard intel. Instead of Traynor alerting Shep to a mission because she had picked up some comm chatter, Liara would be forwarding a heads-up to Shepard from one of her agents or something like that.

I'll give you the point on her log since I can't really read most of the text in the game on my tv so I don't have much of an idea what those intercepted e-mails at her terminal say.

As for Kelly, I do agree that she could sometimes feel like a glorified e-mail notification service. If ME2 had characters moving around the ship like in ME3 then it would've been neat to see her actually chatting with individual crew members to see how they're doing. Even if you tell her to keep things professional, however, I'm pretty sure you can at least still chat with her after recruitment missions to get her thoughts on your squad members.

[CynicalShep]

fiendishchicken wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...
Now, now, she's not that bad. She is not the murderous mess from ME2, a good biotic and a nice piece of @ss

Yes, she is that bad. Her constant whininess, especially after Thessia, shows she's a debilitated civilian that can't take the horrors of war. She may be a decent biotic. So is Javik. So is Samara. So is Jack. So is Miranda. Why can't I have them instead?

I don't see Liara as a HPOA at all. She's blue, and she has tentacles on her head. She's an alien. I don't find aliens attractive in the slightest.

Both Javik and Miranda are worse biotics than her. Everybody whines in game, the least of it probably comes from Garrus. Javik had a few good jokes but I found his attitude generally annoying. We didn't see much of Samara apart from "live by the code, die by the code". She was an honorable warrior with a not so honorable outfit. And while I sort of liked Jack I can't believe you're bringing her into this argument. In fact, she is one of the few characters(I not the only one) who improved in ME3. The HPOA part is an argument not worth pursuing, I don't have a fetish for any of them, but I don't have a problem with her tentacles or her color. And just for the record I romanced Ashley and Miranda on my main playthrough

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

warblewobble wrote...
Again, I think Miranda would be a great choice, but I was asking about ME1 characters.

Finding Oriana shouldn't be the main task of the Shadow Broker during a reaper invasion

Liara was just fine (it's more a "show, don't tell" problem). Her actions were just in the background, like sending shiploads of resources to the Crucible or rescuing asari refugees on Thessia. She's also an expert on Prothean technology, and that's exactly what we needed.

Expert?  She didn't know a damn thing about them.

Are you in a postition to judge that or are you letting bias speak? 

She didn't know that the relays and Citadel were not Prothean tech.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Liara's "helping"
-She found some platinum
-She told Shepard about some possible leads

That's about it really

That you know of. 

So she really is doing a lot to help the war.  But we are never, ever, shown this.  So we should just take her word for it?

Take her word for it? Don't even need to that, just use a little common sense. She's the Shadow Broker, using even a small amount of the job's resources means she's doing a lot. What, you think Liara just sits around all the time, doing nothing? 

[Sousabird]

Wait you mean that the archaeologist (who barely can do that right...) is incapable of running a vast information supernetwork but the communications specialist does something similar with apparent ease? Go ****ing Figure.

[Falaxe]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Liara's "helping"
-She found some platinum
-She told Shepard about some possible leads

That's about it really

That you know of. 

So she really is doing a lot to help the war.  But we are never, ever, shown this.  So we should just take her word for it?

Take her word for it? Don't even need to that, just use a little common sense. She's the Shadow Broker, using even a small amount of the job's resources means she's doing a lot. What, you think Liara just sits around all the time, doing nothing? 

Ummm... nope? I bet she`s flooding the internets with pictures of cats

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

warblewobble wrote...
Again, I think Miranda would be a great choice, but I was asking about ME1 characters.

Finding Oriana shouldn't be the main task of the Shadow Broker during a reaper invasion

Liara was just fine (it's more a "show, don't tell" problem). Her actions were just in the background, like sending shiploads of resources to the Crucible or rescuing asari refugees on Thessia. She's also an expert on Prothean technology, and that's exactly what we needed.

Expert?  She didn't know a damn thing about them.

Are you in a postition to judge that or are you letting bias speak? 

She didn't know that the relays and Citadel were not Prothean tech.

Neither did anyone else. I'm guessing she's not the only scientist interested in the protheans. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:56 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Sousabird wrote...

Wait you mean that the archaeologist (who barely can do that right...) is incapable of running a vast information supernetwork but the communications specialist does something similar with apparent ease? Go ****ing Figure.

Traynor runs something similar to a vast information supernetwork? 

Here's me thinking all she did was intercept a few communications and help EDI that one time. 

[Falaxe]

Why do I have feeling, that this thread is going to go assburgers really soon??

[Barquiel]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Neither did anyone else. I'm guessing she's not the only scientist interested in the protheans. 

In ME1, she even says that the citadel and the relays are based on the technology of those who came before  "the protheans".

Modifié par Barquiel, 13 janvier 2013 - 10:23 .

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Neither did anyone else. I'm guessing she's not the only scientist interested in the protheans. 

But she's an "expert" on Prothean technology

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Neither did anyone else. I'm guessing she's not the only scientist interested in the protheans. 

But she's an "expert" on Prothean technology

And? 

You're holding this as some sort of massive negative thing against her repuation, but I don't know why. Every scientist in the galaxy thought the Relays and the Citadel were made by the Protheans, so why is the fact that Liara shared the same opinion so amazingly bad? 

[CynicalShep]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Neither did anyone else. I'm guessing she's not the only scientist interested in the protheans. 

But she's an "expert" on Prothean technology

Well, we have experts on aliens, space, etc. they know much more than your average Joe but they still have no idea what's going on on Mars, nevermind the rest of Sol. An expert knows more than the rest of the population but that doesn't mean she knows what Protheans liked to have for breakfast

[Tokion]

She is not very good because EVERYONE seems to know she is the Shadow Broker. It was such a mystery in ME1 when you were on your quest to expose Saren. Some even thought the Broker was an organization.

[NeroonWilliams]

Is Liara a good information broker?  Without question.  The job of an information broker is to sift through information gathered by a network of operatives, and find important information via pattern recognition that can then be used to extort money (or sold to another party so they can extort money).  Apart from the network and extortion, Liara had already been doing this in her archeological work for over 50 years.

Is she a good Shadow Broker?  Absolutely not.  And that started from day one.  The job of Shadow Broker is to do all of the things that an information broker does and at the same time never let anyone know who it is that is doing it.  Liara got outed to the second biggest information broker in the galaxy (TIM) right when she took the job.  Of course TIM leaked this info to anyone who might serve his purposes.  Is it any wonder that everyone knows she's the Shadow Broker?

Is Traynor a good information broker?  NO!  Traynor is a communication engineering specialist.  She's not networking with anyone, but the skill set she has makes her a very good operative.  She does do a lot of pattern sorting, but it isn't the kind of sorting that Liara could do on her own.  Judging from what we know of Traynor, I doubt that she could do the type of sorting that Liara does for very long.

The clues that Traynor gives to Shepard are things that she is able to find on her own.  If Liara gave them to Shepard it would be second or third hand, like all the other intel she gives.  I'd have to say that most of the intel that Liara provides during ME3 is valuable (apart from the Crucible plans, which are CENTRAL), but Traynor's couple of pickups happen to be crucial to the plot.  This makes Traynor seem more helpful toward the end, but this also makes sense.  Throughout the game the Shadow Broker network is being whittled down, and that further decreases Liara's effectiveness as The Broker.  In the end, one good operative will always beat a head with no body.

Modifié par NeroonWilliams, 13 janvier 2013 - 10:40 .

[NeroonWilliams]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Liara was just fine (it's more a "show, don't tell" problem). Her actions were just in the background, like sending shiploads of resources to the Crucible or rescuing asari refugees on Thessia. She's also an expert on Prothean technology, and that's exactly what we needed.

Expert?  She didn't know a damn thing about them.

Are you in a postition to judge that or are you letting bias speak? 

She didn't know that the relays and Citadel were not Prothean tech.

Liara was a VERY good archeologist, precisely because she DID figure out that the relays and Citadel were not Prothean tech.  And it took her less than 50 years to discover this AND the cyclical nature of past civilizations.  She tells us all of this in that first briefing when she comes aboard the Normandy.  What has the rest of the archeological community been doing for the last 2000 years?!

For the record, I don't have a lot of love for the character of Liara (I'm pretty meh on her).  I try not to let that color analysis.

[Han Shot First]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Neither did anyone else. I'm guessing she's not the only scientist interested in the protheans. 

But she's an "expert" on Prothean technology

Liara mentions that the relays appear to based on the technology of civilization that came before the Protheans, so she was actually onto the truth.

But even if she had claimed that the relay tech originated entirely with the Protheans, you'd still be wrong to criticize the character for that, as she would just be echoing what was considered the conventional wisdom on the subject.

Nearly all of the scientists were wrong.. Singling out a single character for that error would be a bit silly, when Liara would jus bet voicing an opinion that was absolutely in line with the majority of other scientists and academics of her time.

What are you doing would be the equivalent of calling Aristotle incompetent for claiming that Earth was center of the solar system and the other objects in the solar system orbited our planet. Aristotle was wrong of course, but so were most of his peers. He was echoing conventional 'wisdom.'

Modifié par Han Shot First, 14 janvier 2013 - 12:32 .

[SilentK]

DWH1982 wrote...

SilentK wrote...

Hmmm.. I think it would be difficult not to lose people and resources during a reaper invasion. But I still think that she is working for the right thing. If she is spending her resources to help build the crucible then I am happy. She is still the Shadowbroker but the needs placed on her are different now so as long as she puts her resources to the best use all is good.

edit: rewrote because I misread an earlier post =)

I hope you didn't think I was criticizing her for losing people. I didn't mean it that way - as you said, it was inevitable. What I meant was, the loss of people and resources that she took are hurting her ability to function as Shadow Broker. Fewer agents in the field mean that her intelligence operation isn't going to be nearly as effective as it used to be. And, the fact is, necessity requires that the agents that are left devote a disproportionate amount of time to helping the war effort by hunting down resources for the Crucible, which only further harms "traditional" Shadow Broker operations. Not really Liara's fault.

*snip*.

I first read it as a critique, then I reread it and changed my reply. Was a little slow on the uptake there  


Hmm... I would say that I see enough of Liara's Shadow Broker buisness as it is. You hear a few banters between her and Glyph. You can read the notes on her terminal. She comes with information for a few quests and is referencing the Crucible quite often. That is about as much that I would like them to spend on that part of her character. In a perfect world it would certainly have been fun to see more testament to her devoting time and energy to it. But each companion has a certain word-buget, it is why Ash is a little quieter on the Normandy. Her writer decided to use a little more of her time on the Citadel, wish I remembered where I read it.

If we would get more material on Liara's Shadow Broker buisness, perhaps a convo in which she details how much work it is what wold have to be taken away from her other material? I would not like to lose the convo with the beacon, I like it when you discuss her age and how she sees the war. In fact I would rather see those that had a faithful relationship with her get a little extra recongniton from her early on than getting to know more about the fact that she is burning the midnight oil doing Shadow Broker stuff. I am also happy that Traynor got to come forward with formation, sure it could have come from Liara as well and would be more of a show of her working but then I would miss out on one of my favorite people on the Normandy so not an option for me. Besides, it could perhaps have been a little bit too much Liara for those who do not appriciate her if she shows up in every other convo on the Normandy. If Liara had had the convos in which Sam points you to Grissom-station, the Cerberus scientists and later on Sanctuary there would have been quite a lot more of her. In a fantasy setting in which resources are not finite, bring it on. I always want more convos and information from out companions. Considering the interactions that my Shepard has had with Liara, and how much you can see for yourself in her room I am quite happy with it.

[jtav]

I've said it before. Liara should have had Hackett's job. You work for her, she tells you where to go and what to do. You could have meetups on the Citadel or the SB ship to continue the romance. And she still functions as the SB.

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

I've said it before. Liara should have had Hackett's job. You work for her, she tells you where to go and what to do. You could have meetups on the Citadel or the SB ship to continue the romance. And she still functions as the SB.

Id rather take orders from Balak.

[fiendishchicken]

I'd rather not take orders from anyone. It would be much better if Shepard is independent and using the Normandy to help with the war effort. You get contacted while stringing together your alliances with the requests to help and how it will help the war effort. Hackett can oversee the crucible or whatever, and you contact him from time to time informing him of whats up and sending resources his way. That's how I try to play anyway. I never wear any alliance outfits. I'm independent in ME3.

[gisle]

Because there is nothing going on beyond Shepard's field of view. Liara organizes a network of information and gathers resources for the crucible, that even if it is a contrived big ass plot device from a meta-perspective, it's damn useful. Samantha is a signal specialist, tracking communication and that sort of things is her job.

[Steelcan]

Gisle-Aune wrote...

Because there is nothing going on beyond Shepard's field of view. Liara organizes a network of information and gathers resources for the crucible, that even if it is a contrived big ass plot device from a meta-perspective, it's damn useful. Samantha is a signal specialist, tracking communication and that sort of things is her job.

Liara gets one shipment of platinum and suddenly she's the the galaxies biggest hope....