36 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I'm going to steal a thread from Fast Jimmy's page and talk about one thing that I find frustrating in DA2, and the potential impact it has on development.

TL;DR

Bioware's boss fights in DA2, especially Legacy, involve a lot of challenges... and they all revolve around fighting the poor pathfinding AI and the camera (especially on nightmare, where mistakes are close to 1-hit KOs). That isn't fun.

When your RPG's boss fight becomes an adventure game fight but feels like you're holding the controller while upside down and wearinng over mits, there's problem.

The Problem

So, I was just playing Legacy again, and I realized two things: (i) Corypheus is riducolously weak but (ii) the pathfinding is horrible. The fight involves no real tactics - just a long, desparate fight against the horrible, horrible pathfinding, as you desperately hope that the game will allow your party not to get trapped in an obstacle and die painfully.

A Parallel

The Rock Wraith fight was similar - much of it was doding the rolls and long, long (and impossible to judge, really) reach of the wraith by running around in circles and behind pillars. The mechanic was very simple - for an adventure game. But then you combine that with pathfinding that just wasn't designed for this, and you have a nightmarish fight on nigthmare... that has nothing to do with the game.

Further Commentary

I think having a boss fight that revolves around the environment, and managing various mooks, etc. is quite interesting. I didn't mind the first phase of the Corypheus fight - you just had to stay ahead of the flames. But after the second phase, it becomes a horror deathmatch of DOOM against the brutal, brutal pathfinding.

A similar problem actually occured with the bronto fights in that DLC - they charged, and you had to dodge the charge, which meant pausing, orderering your party to move, and hoping the pathfinding has them move the right way. That's a kind of irrelevant frustration that's totally separate from the game itself.

[Dutchess]

I thought the boss fights in DA2 were awful, and very frustrating. Way too much HP. I don't like the phases in the battle either. It just takes far too long, and when you die during phase three, you've just wasted 10-15 minutes.

[Daerog]

I liked the last boss fight in MotA.

Arishok, Orsino, and Meredith weren't inspiring, but the Meredith one was at least fun to watch.

Totally agree with Corypheus, although I enjoyed it, the pathing was a pain, having to micromanage every step of every party member.

DA3 will have a different engine, maybe pathing will be better?

[nightscrawl]

Lol at the people stealing Jimmy's thunder XD.

I agree on the pathfinding though. The only way I am able to do the Corypheus fight is to select the whole party and move them in a huge clump 10 feet at a time. Once I get far enough ahead of the flames I deactivate a pillar and am hopefully able to get at least one demon down before I have to move on. If I get a trail of demons following me, I have to wait until I either lap one of the stragglers, or am directly behind the front flame before turning back and killing a demon. If I don't move the party as a single unit, invariably one person will take the long way around a rock path and die.

It is the single most frustrating boss fight in the entire game, even on normal difficulty, because of these pathing issues. I really enjoy all other aspects of Legacy, but I dread that fight.

[deatharmonic]

I agree that many boss fights, especially the legacy one felt like it belonged in an adventure game. Though I'd be surprised if the path finding wasn't improved. I've always wanted something more tactical which gives you other ways to defeat your enemy as opposed to 'chip bits off their HP for 10mins', but unfortunately that's symptomatic of a combat system where you have one button to attack. The fact that bosses are immune to a lot of conditions and traps doesn't help either. In a game like dragon age those are a great way to facilitate tactics.

[sickpixie]

I'm not fond of these "repeating pattern" bosses. They're okay in action games but aren't interesting to play in something that's trying to be more about executing tactics. The seconds of adaptation are followed by minutes of uninvolving rote actions.

[philippe willaume]

yes path-finding and Peta HP were really tedious.

even if you go to the niches and kill the demons there and tuck yourself out of the flame path.
usually one of your follower well take the long way around the short cut and get singed
nothing terrible since you have health potion and revive potions to the wazou.
so we can brute force our way through.
i would prefer a more tactical approach.


that being said, like the waves, I don't mind it once in a while, it could a nice change of pace and way to go about things.

Phil

[Kidd]

I think this kind of boss could work if only there was some way of saying "Hold Formation" among the "Hold Position/Move Freely" toggle. If I could double tap that button and have my followers mimic the controlled character's movements 1:1, it'd play a lot more fluidly.

Taking the Corypheus fight as an example. We wouldn't have characters randomly turning around when told to go to the other side of the pillar, we'd simply move there with WASD/the left stick and our companions would follow. There'd be nobody charging a shade on the other side of the flames due to them not following an active order at that time. There wouldn't be forced pausing every 1.5 seconds to ensure everything is going according to plan either, they'd simply follow in realtime.

Instead of removing what could potentially be good encounter design, the player should simply be given tools to interact with said design in a way that fits the game engine.

[Gazardiel]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I think this kind of boss could work if only there was some way of saying "Hold Formation" among the "Hold Position/Move Freely" toggle. If I could double tap that button and have my followers mimic the controlled character's movements 1:1, it'd play a lot more fluidly.

...Instead of removing what could potentially be good encounter design, the player should simply be given tools to interact with said design in a way that fits the game engine.

I completely agree with this.  I like doing interesting boss fights, but too often it felt like I couldn't trust my characters to obey my simple instructions to go [there]; I'd constantly have to watch them right after unpausing to make sure they didn't get ferret shock and run off someplace else.  Fighting pathfinding and AI is too much and doesn't drop nice loot.

[Thibax]

I want giant bosses, challenging fights maybe with some puzzles and not too long.

[Fast Jimmy]

To be fair, this is likely a problem you will run into as the combat blurs between party-based RPG and action RPG. Once you have attacks that can be dodged not by a character's skill, but a player's, it becomes quite a slippery slope.

Let's not forget that adventure games with bosses have no need for advanced, obstacle navigating AI. As the the main character is always under the player's control, there is rarely a need to create AI that avoids the dangers, except for maybe one extra companion. Having an entire party the player is supposed to be managing, as per the party based RPG convention, but then also having the necessity to be involved in an action-role, is an incredibly tricky balancing act and one that DA2, in my opinion, did not handle well.

I think the better fix here would be to tone down the elements that involve twitch mechanics or navigating lots of dangerous obstacles unless it is an instance where we are working solo and only in control of one character. Because after all - if the idea is to make combat more action packed in order to distance the experience further away from the pause-and-play party management mechanics... but then requires you to pause the game all the time and correct your party's movement and actions anyway due to the introduction of more action-y elements, then I think it fails to hit the mark it was striving for.

[Corker]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I think this kind of boss could work if only there was some way of saying "Hold Formation" among the "Hold Position/Move Freely" toggle. If I could double tap that button and have my followers mimic the controlled character's movements 1:1, it'd play a lot more fluidly.

I think if you select the entire party, then issue a move command, you get formation following.  A button would make this more obvious, though.  At the expense of complicating the UI slightly.

[Wulfram]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I think the better fix here would be to tone down the elements that involve twitch mechanics or navigating lots of dangerous obstacles unless it is an instance where we are working solo and only in control of one character. Because after all - if the idea is to make combat more action packed in order to distance the experience further away from the pause-and-play party management mechanics... but then requires you to pause the game all the time and correct your party's movement and actions anyway due to the introduction of more action-y elements, then I think it fails to hit the mark it was striving for.

While I'm not keen on twitch mechanics, I think the better fix would be to work on making it less frustrating to maintain control your party.  Which would enhance tactics as well as the actiony stuff.

[Vestua]

When I fought Corypheus I remember I just had selected everyone and moved them as a group myself. But It'd be really nice if they had the brains to do it themselves.

Modifié par Vestua, 13 janvier 2013 - 03:20 .

[Gazardiel]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, this is likely a problem you will run into as the combat blurs between party-based RPG and action RPG. Once you have attacks that can be dodged not by a character's skill, but a player's, it becomes quite a slippery slope.

Let's not forget that adventure games with bosses have no need for advanced, obstacle navigating AI. As the the main character is always under the player's control, there is rarely a need to create AI that avoids the dangers, except for maybe one extra companion. Having an entire party the player is supposed to be managing, as per the party based RPG convention, but then also having the necessity to be involved in an action-role, is an incredibly tricky balancing act and one that DA2, in my opinion, did not handle well.

I think the better fix here would be to tone down the elements that involve twitch mechanics or navigating lots of dangerous obstacles unless it is an instance where we are working solo and only in control of one character. Because after all - if the idea is to make combat more action packed in order to distance the experience further away from the pause-and-play party management mechanics... but then requires you to pause the game all the time and correct your party's movement and actions anyway due to the introduction of more action-y elements, then I think it fails to hit the mark it was striving for.

Good insight here.  A friend was watching me play a few boss fights, and given how often I'm pausing, it really doesn't look like an action/real-time game (and definitely doesn't feel like it).  I usually feel punished for getting into the real-time element because some new reinforcements appear on top of Squshy Anders or Varric just doesn't feel like running from the group of thugs barreling towards him. 

I admit that I am only marginally proficient with the tactics system, but there could be some additions/improvements made there that could help.  For example, it would be great to designate temporary "hotspots" in the particular arena to which companions will run - like a sports play.  Then you could issue a command for everyone to run to "point A" while Rock Wraith blasts, then "point B" for taking out adds, etc.  Also, a "run to X spot" or "run to X companion" would be a great tactic to add - this way Varric could do a pick move on my tank more easily. 

[In Exile]

deatharmonic wrote...

I agree that many boss fights, especially the legacy one felt like it belonged in an adventure game. Though I'd be surprised if the path finding wasn't improved. I've always wanted something more tactical which gives you other ways to defeat your enemy as opposed to 'chip bits off their HP for 10mins', but unfortunately that's symptomatic of a combat system where you have one button to attack.

It's symptomatic of RPGs. There's an obsession in these games about endurance contests, and just slapping on 900 HP to whatever boss you're fighting. The archdemon is an HP sponge.Broodmother? HP sponge. It goes on and on.

The fact that bosses are immune to a lot of conditions and traps doesn't help either. In a game like dragon age those are a great way to facilitate tactics.

I think that if they want to create adventure like battles, then the game should be about different types of gameplay mechanics where we move away from HP (for bosses). For example, the archdemon fight could have been all about knocking it out of the sky - once it's on the ground, it could have been easy to kill.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, this is likely a problem you will run into as the combat blurs between party-based RPG and action RPG. Once you have attacks that can be dodged not by a character's skill, but a player's, it becomes quite a slippery slope. 

You can avoid the absurd delays in 3D RPGs (Ogre winds up, uses telekinetic punch, apparently) without having to create these absurd pathfiding battles.

I think the better fix here would be to tone down the elements that involve twitch mechanics or navigating lots of dangerous obstacles unless it is an instance where we are working solo and only in control of one character. 

Like the Arishok battle?

Because after all - if the idea is to make combat more action packed in order to distance the experience further away from the pause-and-play party management mechanics... but then requires you to pause the game all the time and correct your party's movement and actions anyway due to the introduction of more action-y elements, then I think it fails to hit the mark it was striving for.

That's a funny way of putting it.

[Fallstar]

I never had the problem many seemed to with Corypheus, I assumed he'd be difficult so I manually controlled my companions from the start.

What would be nice is if your companions were able to recognize hazards such as dragon breath and instant kill attacks and have a chance of moving out of their way on their own, say based on a cunning roll. I have no idea how technically difficult this would be, but I remember the High Dragon fight from Origins where I didn't have Shale tanking (she was immune to the dragons near KO attack), and I literally had Alistair just moving from left forearm to right for the entire battle. It wasn't difficult in any way, just tedious.

The Arishok fight was just a standard kiting exercise. That kiting was so effective in DA2 was one of the major problems I had with it. I thought it was great that the Arishok was actually as effective in game combat as he'd been built up to be in the lore, but not so great that you can negate that through a cheap tactic which worked so well because of the increased attack speed from DAO to DA2. You could kite in DAO, but it was much harder to get a blow off and move back before you were hit, as I believe damage is dealt on impact in DA2, but on attack initiation in DAO.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 13 janvier 2013 - 06:27 .

[Seuzie Weuzie]

The second phase in the Corypheus boss fight was a true nightmare. It was too frustrating to pause every few seconds to give individual move commands to each party member. In the end I actually just didn't care. I like to go through my playthroughs without having anyone in the party die but during Corypheus fight I just couldn't take it. I let them all die then solo'd the whole thing.

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, this is likely a problem you will run into as the combat blurs between party-based RPG and action RPG. Once you have attacks that can be dodged not by a character's skill, but a player's, it becomes quite a slippery slope. 

You can avoid the absurd delays in 3D RPGs (Ogre winds up, uses telekinetic punch, apparently) without having to create these absurd pathfiding battles.

I think the better fix here would be to tone down the elements that involve twitch mechanics or navigating lots of dangerous obstacles unless it is an instance where we are working solo and only in control of one character. 

Like the Arishok battle?

Because after all - if the idea is to make combat more action packed in order to distance the experience further away from the pause-and-play party management mechanics... but then requires you to pause the game all the time and correct your party's movement and actions anyway due to the introduction of more action-y elements, then I think it fails to hit the mark it was striving for.

That's a funny way of putting it.

I'm a funny guy.

The Arishok battle would have been a lot better if we were doing things other than kiting to avoid his one-hit-kill moves, honestly. And if he wasn't a HP bloat beast. Honestly, the Arishok duel reminded more of this than anything else. 

That being said, the Varterall fight was another good example of your companions being incredibly stupid. Its AoE attacks that did punshing damage to a very small area killed companions in seconds simply because they didn't ever move out of it. This was supposed to be an example of using party control to get them out of danger, but the crap thing was that they would move BACK into it once you switched control to another member. It was facepalm worthy.

[In Exile]

DuskWarden wrote...

I never had the problem many seemed to with Corypheus, I assumed he'd be difficult so I manually controlled my companions from the start.

That's what I did. I'm not talking about pathfinding in the sense of the auto-follow. I mean ctrl+A and point and click - unless you're moving inch by inch, companions can get trapped on their own.

What would be nice is if your companions were able to recognize hazards such as dragon breath and instant kill attacks and have a chance of moving out of their way on their own, say based on a cunning roll. I have no idea how technically difficult this would be, but I remember the High Dragon fight from Origins where I didn't have Shale tanking (she was immune to the dragons near KO attack), and I literally had Alistair just moving from left forearm to right for the entire battle. It wasn't difficult in any way, just tedious. 

I think making it automatic would be easier, and it's not like it's hard to just move out of the way.

The Arishok fight was just a standard kiting exercise. That kiting was so effective in DA2 was one of the major problems I had with it.

I don't think kiting was any better or worse than in DA:O. Unless you mean in boss fights, but the only case I can really think of was the hubris fight.

You could kite in DAO, but it was much harder to get a blow off and move back before you were hit, as I believe damage is dealt on impact in DA2, but on attack initiation in DAO.

You could easily kite in DA:O. You might have to eat the first hit, but otherwise you can just run around in circles and have your party auto-attack something to death.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
That being said, the Varterall fight was another good example of your companions being incredibly stupid. Its AoE attacks that did punshing damage to a very small area killed companions in seconds simply because they didn't ever move out of it. 

I never found that annoying, because hold party makes it work well enough.

This was supposed to be an example of using party control to get them out of danger, but the crap thing was that they would move BACK into it once you switched control to another member. It was facepalm worthy.

The AI is dumb unless you have it hold its ground. But I do that as a force of habit because of FF on nightmare.

[Wulfram]

The Arishok fight isn't so bad if you dodge his attacks by stepping a little to the side or behind - I think the main problem with the design was that it was very unclear that you need to dodge in those directions rather than stepping backwards.

You also needed enough hitpoints that the impale move wasn't a one hit kill. But really, there should be some occasions where not investing in Constitution hurts.

[Fast Jimmy]

The duel with Loghain in Origins was a good example, simply because it was against an NPC who had the exact stats and skill he would if you chose him as a companion not long after. He wasn't a "boss", he was literally another character that you had to beat, much like Sten was when he challenged you.

Dueling someone with one-hit-kills and ridiculous hit points was really silly. And then for him to use pots on top of it was just the final kick to the baby maker.

But then... that is more of an indictment of the boss fights in DA2 and not the actual topic, being AI navigation around obstacles and damage.