36 réponses à ce sujet

[Blooddrunk1004]

Arishok, High Dragon and Leopold were good.
I just don't know how can they made some boss fights good and some just meh.
Comparing Orsino or Meredith to those is just wierd, i don't know if's either bugged or they wanted us to just corner some bosses and others not. Corypheus was ok but i hated that i had to move my team and pause every second for not to get stucked in those walls.

[Althix]

@ Fast Jimmy because combat in DA2 is action like wikipedia describes it. But in Origins combat is action but with elements of old games like BG.
Diffrence between mob and character can be seen in Night Terrors quest of DA2.

Also programming characters behavior that they will react on hazard terrains would require some effort, and i guess BW did not had this time, because we all know how long DA2 was in development. Such suicide runs were present in Origins as well, but overall combat was different there, in DA2 this flaw in behavior is obvious because it's more punishing.

Also i am not sure is it really needed, because watching your characters is part of overall gameplay.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 13 janvier 2013 - 08:33 .

[XX-Pyro]

I just wish that in boss fights they did something unexpected at a random time that you have to instantly adapt to. The rock-wraith was a fun fight for me but not an example of what I want, because it forced you to use a strategy the game wasn't mechanically built around.

[Kidd]

Corker wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I think this kind of boss could work if only there was some way of saying "Hold Formation" among the "Hold Position/Move Freely" toggle. If I could double tap that button and have my followers mimic the controlled character's movements 1:1, it'd play a lot more fluidly.

I think if you select the entire party, then issue a move command, you get formation following.  A button would make this more obvious, though.  At the expense of complicating the UI slightly.

Well yes, the problem is only click-to-move is available at that time. A lot of PC players probably prefer to use WASD though, and while I applaud the great click-to-move functionality in DA2's console versions, it does take a little while to pause the game -> click Move -> set the reticule where you want. As soon as your characters finish walking to the designated spot, they lose "formation" since they never really cared for formation in the first place. They were merely ordered to walk to spots next to each other.

There needs to be a way to keep formation while using WASD or the left stick, depending on gaming platform.

[Althix]

you still have hold position button right? with out it navigating through Corypheus maze is difficult. It also involves death by lightings, stucks in the walls and other things like running to your doom.

WASD is good when you control a single character, if you have a group then you are using mouse. And despite retarded targeting of DA2 you still can navigate just fine.

p.s. If you side with templars in attack on gallows, there is a templar kneeling at the entrance. He becomes hostile as soon as you attack desire demon. Thing is that your companions rushing to him, killimg him. Next step is Sandal and room with shades and 3 rage demons. Companions who were attacking that misplaced templar can't find a way to pc. They are running by shortest way, which is blocked by burning stuff. Movement in formation with WASD is rather difficult task. given that overall pathing in the game is horrible. With out direct control over party members they will either stuck or die. And movement in formation involves pathing in some distance from pc, and that pathing can be broken by simple object like rock.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:38 .

[In Exile]

secretsandlies wrote...

you still have hold position button right? with out it navigating through Corypheus maze is difficult. It also involves death by lightings, stucks in the walls and other things like running to your doom.

Even with hold position, it's brutal. I only use point and click.

[Althix]

no it's not. you just pause on 3rd stage to calculate route that have no lighting field. perhaps for consoles, if you playing on one, it is brutal. but on pc, it is not.

[Corker]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
 As soon as your characters finish walking to the designated spot, they lose "formation" since they never really cared for formation in the first place. They were merely ordered to walk to spots next to each other.

There needs to be a way to keep formation while using WASD or the left stick, depending on gaming platform.

Formation following with artificial potential function guidance (APFG) - which I don't know the game uses, but I sort of suspect it - is an open area of research, last I looked.  APFG uses simulated "force fields" to attract and repel an agent.  So in explore mode, a companion is attracted to their spot behind and to the right of Leader, and repelled from placeable objects and walls.  They try to maintain their position, but as they get closer to the obstacle, the repelling force becomes greater and pushes them out and around it.

Because you're always summing the total of all the attracting and all the repelling forces, there's always a chance the forces will either balance (and your follower valiantly runs into a wall and keeps try to run through it) or add up in weird ways.  At a guess, things that look like obvious short cuts to the human user look to the AI like an 'expensive' piece of terrain to traverse, if the tail ends of the repelling fields overlap there and sum up into a force big enough to make them go around.  And then the AI does 'stupid' things.

I don't know why the WASD keys/joystick don't work in Select All mode.  ...Wait, probably because, since companions might change their facing to avoid obstacles, 'ahead' for one member of the collective may not be the same as the others.  So you can't just copy the command to each follower.  In click-mode, they can individually path plan to reach those spots, maintaining formation as much as possible, but without needing to execute identical motions. 

So what you'd have to do is consider the formation a single unit with a single facing, and only allow it to pass through regions large enough for all party members to pass through at once. Which would look 'AI stupid' in entirely new ways, if your lead character has to stop because Right Wing is caught on a rock. 

Or maybe some mixed-mode commanding where Lead uses WASD/joystick commands, and Followers use whatever path planning they usually use to increment their position relative to Lead?  Probably a hassle if you change Lead in the middle of a maneuver... I suspect there'd be a lot of ways for QA to break that. 

Yyyyeah, I'm thinking the implementation would not be as simple as you'd think.

[wsandista]

Yea, the boss fights were you had to move to certain areas to avoid attacks were not fun at all. I don't mind environmental factors(like I storms, terrain, or even traps), but having to move the entire party behind a wall or through a maze is too damn tedious and unfun.

[Fast Jimmy]

To me, moving from one spot to the next in a high intensity, high risk environment is not a gameplay element found anywhere else in the game. If there were other examples of this, where a player could learn the best strategies or the pitfalls in navigating the system, but in a structured, non-combat environment, I don't think it would feel as jarring.

That, instead, we are introduced to this mechanic in boss fights that are tougher than your standard mook fight exacerbates the difficulty in something that should not be difficult - namely, wrestling the controls and companion AI.

[JediHealerCosmin]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Having to micromanage the followers every little step in the confrontation with Corypheus, was annoying. I appreciate trying to incorporate environmental hazards into boss battles, but without the aggravating pathfinding "challenges." Perhaps the new Frostbite engine will help with this.

What he/she said. Pathfinding is a weird element that never really comes out right, especially for BW. In Mass Effect squadmates possition themselves above the actual cover (had some nice laughs with that one in ME2 on Insanity). In SWTOR it's a little better with the ocasional yelling at your companion for not getting on the elevator or not following your intended shortcut (sometimes aggroing enemies close to you... damn you Vette )