121 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

Distance to the target is a major factor or did I misread that? I've constantly observed an enemy tagettting me from way across the map even though uncloaked team mates are closer to it though this only seems to happen with bosses.

[FlowCytometry]

Cyonan wrote...
2. Being the last enemy alive has a tendency to make most enemies go into this mode if they have a melee attack. I have seen some exceptions like the Scion or Ravager, but trash mobs that have melees all seem to want to do this when they're the last one left.

Its likely somewhat time-based and position based. Back when glacier's farm room was still intact, you could somewhat easily solo Geth w/ the Demo by hunkering down in that room. After a while all the non-rushing units (troopers, rocket troopers) would rush around the corner and enter the room- when before they were camping in cover outside the room. This was typically after the wave budget had been spent enough to no longer allow respawns, iirc.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I love Cyonan

[N7Kopper]

Cyonan wrote...

N7Kopper wrote...
Our projectiles track at insane angles, too. The difference is, enemy dodges aren't as potent (so we can shoot them with bullets more easily) so they have a similar effect to chaff for our homing attacks. (Not that you didn't know this, just some of our more cynical and less mechanically-minded members)

-So this is the only instance that the cheat doesn't do as intended, and presents an actual advantage to the AI? This obviously needs to be patched out.

What I've noticed is that our projectiles have insane tracking, but once the enemy dodges that's pretty much it for our projectiles, unless you have the radius upgrade and the dodge was at the last second then it'll hit the nearby ground and the radius allow for a hit.

For us it's the reverse. The only way to dodge an enemy projectile is to dodge at the last second or put something solid between you and it.

I know this, my man. Hence my comment on "chaff"

But we still have the advantage. Skilled players can dodge enemy projectiles 100% of the time (although the skill requirement is kind of forbidding in lag) but with the enemy, there's a cooldown, and even if they're off their dodge CD, the random number god gets the final say. :innocent:

[spudspot]

Good read, as always.

I do have a question on the 'having a target painted on your back with three infiltrators'. Could this have something to do with the mandatory 1s cloak is active after you break it?

If you break cloak with a Claymore for example, kill an enemy with it, will cloak still be considered active by the game when that unit respawns, so the cloaked player won't show up among the valid targets when the new enemy 'cheats' after it has spawned?

My experiences with three infiltrators don't seem to match what others have whitnessed, so I'm kinda curious why people feel that way.

[Beta Commando]

I always thought that there was in one way or another, an aggro system but to me it seemed to work a lot different than in any other game and I was correct about that. How does shooting targets affect anything or does it affect at all, for example if you are the only one shooting and your friends are in cover and you don´t see the enemies and they don´t see you. Will they move towards the sound or is that irrelevant? Anyways, thanks for the informative and well construct post Cyonan!

[Coffee Culture]

Bless your soul Cyonan, thanks.

[Beta Commando]

Cyonan wrote...

N7Kopper wrote...
Our projectiles track at insane angles, too. The difference is, enemy dodges aren't as potent (so we can shoot them with bullets more easily) so they have a similar effect to chaff for our homing attacks. (Not that you didn't know this, just some of our more cynical and less mechanically-minded members)

-So this is the only instance that the cheat doesn't do as intended, and presents an actual advantage to the AI? This obviously needs to be patched out.

What I've noticed is that our projectiles have insane tracking, but once the enemy dodges that's pretty much it for our projectiles, unless you have the radius upgrade and the dodge was at the last second then it'll hit the nearby ground and the radius allow for a hit.

For us it's the reverse. The only way to dodge an enemy projectile is to dodge at the last second or put something solid between you and it.

The cheat can also put cloaked Infiltrators in a bad spot if they spawn right next to them, since you'll think you're cloaked when the enemies can see you. Enemies aren't supposed to spawn right next to you, but they've certainly been known to do so.

Other than that though. the perfectly timed projectiles is the only time I can think of that gives them an advantage over us.

It'd be pretty comparable to gaining a map wide Hunter Mode for 1 second.

Also the type of the projectile we fire is counted when they decide to dodge or not to dodge. I noticed that obviously the more damaging projectiles that are larger at size and slower at flying spee such as warp or carnage is more oftenly dodged by the enemy unit than a simple and fast ability such as throw, lash or concussive shot.

[Blind2Society]

Cyonan wrote...

Enemies will cheat on line of sight

This is a minor one, but still note worthy. Occasionally enemies will cheat and take a look to see where the players are. This is primarily done upon spawning, and is done so the enemy will know where on the map they should go to find the players so they aren't just aimlessly wandering.

The part that is mainly noteworthy here is that this will see through everything, including Tactical Cloak as though you do not have it on.

I think that was a terrible decision by BioWare. They should just wander until they find something to shoot at. Not to mention, it's partially responsible for rocket troopers shooting you before they turn around.

[Cyonan]

Beerfish wrote...

Distance to the target is a major factor or did I misread that? I've constantly observed an enemy tagettting me from way across the map even though uncloaked team mates are closer to it though this only seems to happen with bosses.

It's not neccessarily the biggest factor, but it is one.

From my experience the biggest one is that they really like staying on the same target.

FlowCytometry wrote...

Its likely somewhat time-based and position based. Back when glacier's farm room was still intact, you could somewhat easily solo Geth w/ the Demo by hunkering down in that room. After a while all the non-rushing units (troopers, rocket troopers) would rush around the corner and enter the room- when before they were camping in cover outside the room. This was typically after the wave budget had been spent enough to no longer allow respawns, iirc.

I recall something in the Coalesced file about a "berserk timer", but I can't remember what it was set to.

This could be what that was referring to, since I've never really had much of an idea as to what that variable was doing.

spudspot wrote...

Good read, as always.

I do have a question on the 'having a target painted on your back with three infiltrators'. Could this have something to do with the mandatory 1s cloak is active after you break it?

If you break cloak with a Claymore for example, kill an enemy with it, will cloak still be considered active by the game when that unit respawns, so the cloaked player won't show up among the valid targets when the new enemy 'cheats' after it has spawned?

My experiences with three infiltrators don't seem to match what others have whitnessed, so I'm kinda curious why people feel that way.

You'll remain cloaked for at least 1 second, though your Claymore will make sound much like your footsteps do. Of course, sound is pretty low on the priority list so they'll probably not go after that Infiltrator. It is possible that the 1 second occurs before a unit ends an attack cycle and re-targets, effectively doing nothing.

[k1ngl1ves]

How Dropping Aggro Works:

>How injured is the target

My question:
If everyone is full health/shields and generally the same distance from an enemy, and are the same in all other general requirements, does the AI then try to attack the teammate with the lowest base shields? This could be a reason why I always feel like I'm the first person targeted whenever I play a Volus. Banshees seem to love Volus round, gigglybumbums...

[cronshaw]

Cyonan wrote...


No ability will trigger a re-target cycle, which also happens to lead to the "My Sabotaged targets still attack me :crying:" threads as well. A hacked enemy will finish their attack cycle before re-evaluating their target and realizing that their targets are now their former allies for the next few seconds.

So the best time to use sabatoge is not when an enemy is shooting at you
but when it is doing nothing, or not shooting at least
interesting

[Cyonan]

k1ngl1ves wrote...

How Dropping Aggro Works:

>How injured is the target

My question:
If everyone is full health/shields and generally the same distance from an enemy, and are the same in all other general requirements, does the AI then try to attack the teammate with the lowest base shields? This could be a reason why I always feel like I'm the first person targeted whenever I play a Volus. Banshees seem to love Volus round, gigglybumbums...

That's one of the things I still would like to test, but is insanely hard to test properly due to how many variables that can interfere with it.

modok8 wrote...
So the best time to use sabatoge is not when an enemy is shooting at you
but when it is doing nothing, or not shooting at least
interesting

Yep. 

It makes it not so great as an emergency CC button, but that is how you get the most out of it.

[Computron2000]

I didn't know how injured a target was factored into the aggro consideration. Good to know

Edit: Checked. The berserk limit is based on the number of enemies still alive. Its 2/4/6/10 for bronze/silver/gold/platinum, so the last spawn when the budget is exhausted will charge when there are 6 left on the map in gold

Modifié par Computron2000, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:52 .

[Grammaton Dryad]

The Sin wrote...

I love Cyonan

[jfruelas521]

Bump for everyone to see. Great info.

[khannoir]

well done Cyonan...

10/10
would Bang

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Cyonan wrote...


That's one of the things I still would like to test, but is insanely hard to test properly due to how many variables that can interfere with it.

The only idea I can come up with is using four different classes on mic on hazard ghost. Whenever there are rain waves, all four players can try and simultaneously expose themselves.

There'd be some repetition involved, but it's possible AI tendencies to shoot lower health targets could be detected.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Great post, great follow-up asked-and-answered by BSN and OP!

Thank you, this has restored the BSN... Today

[Stinja]

Original post seems to match, but it is slightly at odds with what a dev said once about it.

I'll just add my own oddities:

Volus cloak seems more reliable that inf Tac Cloak, maybe it's just the size/threat/DPS eval which makes volus much less threatening? But i regularly get three+ enemies just turn away when I'm in Reegar range.

Immobilised enemies are glitchy, not just stasis, but I've had a rocket trooper continue to fire while rag dolled in singularity. Ditto lift/throw/pull, so it's not breaking aggro when rag dolled.

[Lathlaer]

About the horde mode: it's very visible when fighting gold cerberus on wave 4. Once you kill all phantoms and dragoons, other units visibly go into berserk. I tested it with my brother, basically we could camp the LZ on Giant and kill every phantom and dragoon that went around the corner but only when we got rid of them did other troopers rush like their life depended on it.

[spudspot]

Cyonan wrote...

spudspot wrote...

Good read, as always.

I do have a question on the 'having a target painted on your back with three infiltrators'. Could this have something to do with the mandatory 1s cloak is active after you break it?

If you break cloak with a Claymore for example, kill an enemy with it, will cloak still be considered active by the game when that unit respawns, so the cloaked player won't show up among the valid targets when the new enemy 'cheats' after it has spawned?

My experiences with three infiltrators don't seem to match what others have whitnessed, so I'm kinda curious why people feel that way.

You'll remain cloaked for at least 1 second, though your Claymore will make sound much like your footsteps do. Of course, sound is pretty low on the priority list so they'll probably not go after that Infiltrator. It is possible that the 1 second occurs before a unit ends an attack cycle and re-targets, effectively doing nothing.

Well, I know  that, but I meant something else. 

You said that enemies will wall-hack from time to time, mostly right after they spawn. The way you describe the TC detection mechanics, a cloaked player would not be considered a valid target by an enemy that has just wall-hacked to see where he should go. (Given that enemy can't hear said cloaked player, of course.)

If we now have four players spread out over the map and one of them kills a target while cloaked, there will be an enemy that respawns. My question was if TC is still considered active when that new enemy initially takes a look behind the curtain to determine where on the map he will find a target.

If that is the case, that would explain why people feel like they get more 'aggro' with more infiltrators on the squad, because every time a teammate downs an enemy, the replacement for that enemy will target anybody but the guy who killed its predecessor. 

Modifié par spudspot, 14 janvier 2013 - 10:47 .

[Deerber]

Well, I think I'm going to put a link of this thread here. It teached me a lot of things about AI and I think it could be very useful to everyone who didn't know about it: http://social.biowar...x/13287526&lf=8

In this way, we also get to compare Cyonan's founding to how dev thought the game should behave in the first place... Maybe that could lead to some bug discovery as well.


Enjoy! 

Modifié par Deerber, 14 janvier 2013 - 10:51 .

[Blennus]

Cyonan you are awesome. This man deserves a medal!

[Catastrophy]

Cyonan wrote...

After the Tactical Cloak thread I did a bit more testing on "aggro" in this game. Mass Effect 3 does not use a threat table like MMOs do, so gaining or losing aggro is not as simple as "do lots of high threat attacks" or "stop attacking for a second".

...

Did you read Brenon Holme's remarks in this thread? (Edit: already ninjaed by Deerber, didn't see it) As it seems it comes down pretty much to detection and target picking - pretty much the direction of what you say.

He states that the units exchange their target data. Basically each unit keeps track of its own sightings but communicates what it "sees" to its buddies. So if there a 3 infiltrators, it is very likely that the enemy faction has a rough image about the whereabouts about those, but quite a clear idea where the 4th guy without cloak is.

It is said that the drone looks through cloak, this would explain why I the Prime sucks so much in Shadow vs Geth solos.

Also, every map has a layout of paths that the AI uses to navigate around (the famous "polite ladder-climbing seeker swarms" come to mind). So if someone happens to stay away from those paths (leecher's heaven), it's more unlikely he'll get targetted.

Modifié par dr_random, 14 janvier 2013 - 11:31 .