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Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut – A Disappointed Fan Responds (Article)


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#101
GimmeDaGun

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Seboist wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Well it actually warrants the question what Bioware was going for with the Mass Effect trilogy? Was it aimed at Bladerunner-esque type sci-fi or more themed at space opera?


It was originally a homage to 80s sci-fi with the first one. The sequels however, are an unintentional homage to Ed Wood level schlock with elements of comic book silliness added in.



Is this something that you've just come up with and keep repeating in every single thread? :lol: Ok, I don't mean to be a jerk, but my impression is that you take this whole thing a bit too serious. 

#102
Iakus

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RocketManSR2 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Hope?

What hope was their for the Rachni when you drowned them in acid?

What hope was there for the Krogans when Eve died and you sabotaged the cure?

Which would be a good retort if this happened in every playthrough and there in fact wasn't any room for hope.
Excpet that's not the case.
The article never states that the way the author played was the only way it could be played, it just shows how a certain play style is utterly undermined in the last ten mintues.
This was the case for the author and myself as well.


My main is a full paragon. I chose destroy and just felt hollow afterward. The Catalyst had lost it's mind and someone could finally make them answer for their crimes. I passed judgement on behalf of every organic they ever killed. The Reapers were finally gone, but my paragon Shepard felt like s*** and so did I. Thanks, BioWare. :unsure:


+1

I uninstalled the entire trilogy and didn't play for months afterwards.  Thanks, Bioware. :crying:

#103
Someone With Mass

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GimmeDaGun wrote...

Is this something that you've just come up with and keep repeating in every single thread? :lol: Ok, I don't mean to be a jerk, but my impression is that you take this whole thing a bit too serious. 


No, you see, that's his overused "joke".

But much like Smudboy, it takes him years to finally get a hang of it, even if the rest of the world has moved on to another topic by that point.

#104
Seboist

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GimmeDaGun wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Well it actually warrants the question what Bioware was going for with the Mass Effect trilogy? Was it aimed at Bladerunner-esque type sci-fi or more themed at space opera?


It was originally a homage to 80s sci-fi with the first one. The sequels however, are an unintentional homage to Ed Wood level schlock with elements of comic book silliness added in.



Is this something that you've just come up with and keep repeating in every single thread? :lol: Ok, I don't mean to be a jerk, but my impression is that you take this whole thing a bit too serious. 


I appreciate you admitting you have nothing to counter with.

#105
SimonTheFrog

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RocketManSR2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Fat chance! If they were open to any imput, even constructive criticism they would have not have given us the middlefinger on EC.


Every single thing in the EC was because of fan feedback.


Yea, they read the feedback and did the opposite.


Rather, they cherry-picked some feedback and ignored the other.

#106
GimmeDaGun

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Seboist wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Well it actually warrants the question what Bioware was going for with the Mass Effect trilogy? Was it aimed at Bladerunner-esque type sci-fi or more themed at space opera?


It was originally a homage to 80s sci-fi with the first one. The sequels however, are an unintentional homage to Ed Wood level schlock with elements of comic book silliness added in.



Is this something that you've just come up with and keep repeating in every single thread? :lol: Ok, I don't mean to be a jerk, but my impression is that you take this whole thing a bit too serious. 


I appreciate you admitting you have nothing to counter with.



:lol: I have, but it's in the other thread. ;) Go and read, if you will. 

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/15532027/14

#107
GimmeDaGun

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iakus wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Hope?

What hope was their for the Rachni when you drowned them in acid?

What hope was there for the Krogans when Eve died and you sabotaged the cure?

Which would be a good retort if this happened in every playthrough and there in fact wasn't any room for hope.
Excpet that's not the case.
The article never states that the way the author played was the only way it could be played, it just shows how a certain play style is utterly undermined in the last ten mintues.
This was the case for the author and myself as well.


My main is a full paragon. I chose destroy and just felt hollow afterward. The Catalyst had lost it's mind and someone could finally make them answer for their crimes. I passed judgement on behalf of every organic they ever killed. The Reapers were finally gone, but my paragon Shepard felt like s*** and so did I. Thanks, BioWare. :unsure:


+1

I uninstalled the entire trilogy and didn't play for months afterwards.  Thanks, Bioware. :crying:



I'm sorry for you iakus and many of you guys... truly. You seem to be a nice chap and a devoted fan. Even if I love ME as it is (yeah, flaws - not necessarily ending related - included), I can see where your frustration is coming from. Seriously man... wish you could see it the way I do and find as much joy in it as I do... if you know what I mean. 

I doubt it would ever happen, but just for you guys it would be nice if Bioware relased an alternative (non-canonised) happy ending mod: something simple and elegant, where you could at least find your peace with ME (and the concept of the ending). I will never be this passionate about this game and story. If it caused me this much frustration and anger, I would be out of here for sure. 

Thank God I like it. Wish you could do the same!

#108
Guest_Fandango_*

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iakus wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Hope?

What hope was their for the Rachni when you drowned them in acid?

What hope was there for the Krogans when Eve died and you sabotaged the cure?

Which would be a good retort if this happened in every playthrough and there in fact wasn't any room for hope.
Excpet that's not the case.
The article never states that the way the author played was the only way it could be played, it just shows how a certain play style is utterly undermined in the last ten mintues.
This was the case for the author and myself as well.


My main is a full paragon. I chose destroy and just felt hollow afterward. The Catalyst had lost it's mind and someone could finally make them answer for their crimes. I passed judgement on behalf of every organic they ever killed. The Reapers were finally gone, but my paragon Shepard felt like s*** and so did I. Thanks, BioWare. :unsure:


+1

I uninstalled the entire trilogy and didn't play for months afterwards.  Thanks, Bioware. :crying:




Aye, I haven’t touched the game since putting it down in disgust after witnessing the original ending for the very first time. I had hoped that the EC would make things a little less repugnant, but it somehow managed to make things even more offensive. Quite the achievement!

edit - spelinz

Modifié par Fandango9641, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:44 .


#109
Renmiri1

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SimonTheFrog wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Fat chance! If they were open to any imput, even constructive criticism they would have not have given us the middlefinger on EC.


Every single thing in the EC was because of fan feedback.


Yea, they read the feedback and did the opposite.


Rather, they cherry-picked some feedback and ignored the other.


+10000

#110
Iakus

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GimmeDaGun wrote...

I'm sorry for you iakus and many of you guys... truly. You seem to be a nice chap and a devoted fan. Even if I love ME as it is (yeah, flaws - not necessarily ending related - included), I can see where your frustration is coming from. Seriously man... wish you could see it the way I do and find as much joy in it as I do... if you know what I mean. 

I doubt it would ever happen, but just for you guys it would be nice if Bioware relased an alternative (non-canonised) happy ending mod: something simple and elegant, where you could at least find your peace with ME (and the concept of the ending). I will never be this passionate about this game and story. If it caused me this much frustration and anger, I would be out of here for sure. 

Thank God I like it. Wish you could do the same!


I already have a simple and elegent mod in MEHEM.  Even in it's current unfinished state I'll take it over any "official" ending provided thus far.  Heck that's the very reason I was able to reinstall the game. 

Of course, that's a fan-made mod so it still means that a fan did what Bioware couldn't/wouldn't do.  Plus, it's only fro PC players, which means XBox and PS3 players are still SOL.

#111
Iakus

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SimonTheFrog wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Fat chance! If they were open to any imput, even constructive criticism they would have not have given us the middlefinger on EC.


Every single thing in the EC was because of fan feedback.


Yea, they read the feedback and did the opposite.


Rather, they cherry-picked some feedback and ignored the other.


QFT

#112
clennon8

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The EC was a bandaid to stanch the bleeding. It was a business decision, designed to keep their planned DLC cycle from failing before it even began. Nothing more.

#113
Necrotron

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clennon8 wrote...

The EC was a bandaid to stanch the bleeding. It was a business decision, designed to keep their planned DLC cycle from failing before it even began. Nothing more.


It seemed quite effective in doing so too.  Now, the general argument against someone saying they were disappointed in the ending to Mass Effect and would love to see any possibility of change is, "you entitled brat, shut up, they already tried to appease you!  You can never be pleased, can you?"  despite the fact that the extended cut did not change anything about the ending that many people outcried about.

And it seemed to get people to hold onto hope long enough to stem off used game sales for a long time, which was effective.

Now, I don't think Bioware did their extended cut solely as a 'profit saving' gimmick, although it was effective for that.  I think they just wanted to try and clarify what they intended to communicate with the original ending, which is exactly what the extended cut is.  It was not a response to those who hated the ending, because it did nothing to appease those who spoke out against the faulty logic, the abandonment of themes of Mass Effect, the sour taste the ending left, the starchild, being forced to rely on the Reapers trustworthyness when making a kill yourself decision, ect. etc.

The whole thing with the extended cut was damage control (and not solely for the sake of damage control, I'm sure they had some good intentions of attempting to satify some of their userbase).  They couldn't change the ending, that risked upsetting those who liked the original ending.  And they didn't want to set a dangerous precedent that if enough fans got together, companies would change the endings to the stories they wrote, so that only left 're-explaining' and 'extending' the original ending, which is what they did.

Unfortunetly, the fact that they responded gives anyone who wants to speak out against those who voice their disapproval of the ending a place to say, "you jerks, they already responded to your stupid manipulation attempts of donating money to charity and they tried to please you!  You can never be pleased!  Shut up and go back to your trailor", which you see responses like this all over message boards anytime Mass Effect's ending and extended cut get discussed.  But the fact of the matter is, the group of people who hated the original ending were never even attempted to be appeased because the fact that Bioware didn't want to set a precedent of changing stories because of fan outrage and they didn't want to alienate the original ending's fans.

Modifié par Bathaius, 14 janvier 2013 - 10:52 .


#114
JPR1964

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very good...

JPR out!

#115
RiouHotaru

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As much as Drayfish's articles are interesting, his original thread was just a huge appeal to authority. A literary professor said the endings were awful, therefore it must be so. Nevermind the fact the entire argument was founded on a subjective points.

#116
Cobretti ftw

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It pretty much said everything that needs to be said.

I agree completly.

#117
Guest_Fandango_*

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RiouHotaru wrote...

As much as Drayfish's articles are interesting, his original thread was just a huge appeal to authority. A literary professor said the endings were awful, therefore it must be so. Nevermind the fact the entire argument was founded on a subjective points.


Were you expecting incontrovertible, objective proof that the EC was anus? You know, even though I abhor the vile message of those wretched endings, I really would like to hear your thoughts on the merits of a game that rewards this….

matt-bassist wrote...

Bro, screw the Geth. Sorry about EDI and all, but I want to DESTROY the Reapers, thats the whole god damn point! Also, I want to SURVIVE! and see my LI again, have a drink with my bro Garrus, and make fun of Javik.



….but shunts a thinly veiled middle finger in the general direction of those of us who wanted to continue role-playing  a morally virtuous Shep!

FYI, the 'Bro, screw the Geth' quote is from the first page of this thread - though I could have lifted something similarly abhorrent from any one of about a million. Well done Bioware!

Modifié par Fandango9641, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:46 .


#118
daaaav

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RiouHotaru wrote...

As much as Drayfish's articles are interesting, his original thread was just a huge appeal to authority. A literary professor said the endings were awful, therefore it must be so. Nevermind the fact the entire argument was founded on a subjective points.


No, not really...

The fact that Drayfish is a literary proffessor does not cause his arguments to be logical fallacies. In fact, he doesn't mention his proffesorship in the OP of the original thread at all. I also don't know why you dismiss his "subjective" points as all literary critisism is subjective. This does not mean that subjective arguments cannot be compelling however, and I find his arguments to be exceptionally compelling and representative of my own opinions on ME3.

Modifié par daaaav, 15 janvier 2013 - 01:13 .


#119
Renmiri1

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daaaav wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

As much as Drayfish's articles are interesting, his original thread was just a huge appeal to authority. A literary professor said the endings were awful, therefore it must be so. Nevermind the fact the entire argument was founded on a subjective points.


No, not really...

The fact that Drayfish is a literary proffessor does not cause his arguments to be logical fallacies. In fact, he doesn't mention his proffesorship in the OP of the original thread at all. I also don't know why you dismiss his "subjective" points as all literary critisism is subjective. This does not mean that subjective arguments cannot be compelling however, and I find his arguments to be exceptionally compelling and representative of my own opinions on ME3.


+1

#120
The_Other_M

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Nice find, guess I'll be bookmarking this article too.

#121
Oni Changas

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clennon8 wrote...

The EC was a bandaid to stanch the bleeding. It was a business decision, designed to keep their planned DLC cycle from failing before it even began. Nothing more.

Bingo. We have a winner.

#122
drayfish

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Thanks to everyone saying kind things about the article. It was – as is probably obvious from reading – written in a rather disenchanted state, but all remains a fair representation of my experience of the game. 

(For anyone interested, this commentary somewhat continues in a follow up article: http://whatculture.c...-the-ending.php, also reprinted (along with many other dollops of pretention) on my blog: http://drayfish.word...y-with-genocide)

I should point out though: as the title directly states (and thankfully as many in this thread have already noted), this article is a Response, not a formal critique. As a piece of entertainment, I was responding to Mass Effect 3 as an audience member, a fan, who participated in a narrative journey and was shocked (to say the very least) by the nihilistic direction that the story took in its final moments. So when I speak about the thematic shift in the game, I am approaching the text on its own terms – on the interplay between audience and narrative that it established and repeatedly reiterated throughout the tale – but I am doing so through my experience of that change, and my response to the message that it conveys.

As I acknowledge (repeatedly, in fact) some people very much enjoy that reversal in the game, and appreciate that in its final moments it decided to fundamentally alter this relationship between audience and text, to force the player to abandon some principle that they found sacrosanct (or at the very least, reward only the more ruthless Shepards, who, unburdened by the harrowing moral implications of the 'victory' they 'win', get to see their world-views celebrated), but that was most certainly not the truth for everyone.  I was, clearly, one of those who found it repellent, and it was that sensation that I was cataloguing in my totally subjective response. And in that light, I am neither 'more right', nor 'less entitled to an opinion' than anyone else who played the game.

Keeping that in mind, however, I do want to respond to a few comments made in this thread in my following posts...

Modifié par drayfish, 15 janvier 2013 - 07:30 .


#123
RiouHotaru

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daaaav wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

As much as Drayfish's articles are interesting, his original thread was just a huge appeal to authority. A literary professor said the endings were awful, therefore it must be so. Nevermind the fact the entire argument was founded on a subjective points.


No, not really...

The fact that Drayfish is a literary proffessor does not cause his arguments to be logical fallacies. In fact, he doesn't mention his proffesorship in the OP of the original thread at all. I also don't know why you dismiss his "subjective" points as all literary critisism is subjective. This does not mean that subjective arguments cannot be compelling however, and I find his arguments to be exceptionally compelling and representative of my own opinions on ME3.


Well, I can understand why he dislikes the ending.  I just don't agree with him at all.  Also, his original post's title to be seemed a bit misleading.  He mentions a professor finding the ending thematically "revolting".  And I admit that the title alone puts me off because it sounds like an appeal to authority.  I personally disagree with his actual points, even if I understand why he feels that way.  It was just difficult to get past the opening due to it's presentation.  I'm sure he didn't mean it that way, but it's how it came off to me.

#124
drayfish

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RiouHotaru wrote...
As much as Drayfish's articles are interesting, his original thread was just a huge appeal to authority. A literary professor said the endings were awful, therefore it must be so. Nevermind the fact the entire argument was founded on a subjective points.


I'm sorry to say, I find a comment like this very tedious – on two counts. Firstly, at no point have I ever splashed my qualifications about, decreeing that my utterly subjective opinion in any way trumps anyone else's. When I speak on this forum, on my blog, or on the site referenced in this thread, I am speaking as an audience member responding to a text as a piece of communication that invites – indeed, requires – a reaction from its audience. The only reason that anyone even knows I lecture anything is because it was announced before I even knew of this forum, and I therefore signed up to correct some comments of mine that were paraphrased (leading to the 'All Were Thematically Revolting...' thread).

Moreover, in that thread it was repeatedly stated (both by myself and the other users involved) that people's jobs, qualifications, personal histories, etc. were completely irrelevant to the value of their contribution to the discussion. Neither my, nor anyone else's voice automatically trumped anyone else's in the inane way you describe. 

Indeed, literally the only people I have ever seen try to wave my qualifications around (or even mention them, frankly) are those who want to bring them up just to say that they don't mean anything. And in this context, as I've said: I completely agree.

Secondly, everything that anyone says is going to be subjective. This is the humanities. We are talking about a piece of fiction. There are thematic conventions, there are narrative tropes, there are mythic archetypes and whole histories of theory about the application of metaphor and mimetic representation – all of it, ultimately, is subjective. Writers can embrace, subvert, question, or explode established narrative convention in a myriad of engrossing and profound ways – if they do it convincingly. But if they do it in a way that breaks their own rules, that undermines the tale they were telling and the universe they had established without justifying the alteration, then their work has issues that should rightfully be critiqued.  And I would subjectively posit that Mass Effect 3 is very much one such failed attempt.

What matters is if the final work says something – if it is cohesive, and meaningful, and if it moves its audience in some intended way (and I say 'intended' purposefully). Whether the text has in fact succeeded in this endeavour will ultimately fall to the audience.  One of the great misconceptions about 'Art' is that it is somehow funnelled from the muses through the artists, and we consuming plebs have to scurry to keep up. A work of art is always a conversation between artist and audience. Sometimes the audience gets it wrong (Stravinsky's Rite of Spring was howled down in its first performances), sometimes the artist screws it up (Jack Snyder thought he was making a feminist statement with Sucker Punch, and that film is vile), but in every case, the debate and discussion between text and audience does not simply end with some boring, arbitrary 'objective' truth. 

They don't exist in the world of artistic expression. And if they did, there would be no such thing as Art anyway.

Again, your opinion is no more or less valid than mine; mine is no more or less valid than yours. And while I would not dismiss yours out of hand, I would hope you could show the same courtesy.

#125
RiouHotaru

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drayfish wrote...

Again, your opinion is no more or less valid than mine; mine is no more or less valid than yours. And while I would not dismiss yours out of hand, I would hope you could show the same courtesy.


And if you looked at my following post, I explained that I did understand your points, even if I didn't agree.  I merely found the title used for your original post to be suspect.  Since the title of your post is the very first thing I see on the topic list, it didn't give me a very good impression.

EDIT: I'll also apologize.  It's simply a sore point for me that the only threads that ever get any amount of decent discussion are threads that can be summerized as: "I think the Endings are bad, and here's why."  God forbid you're part of the crowd who isn't opposed to the endings (Pre or post-EC) or actually likes them.  I've considered making threads to argue things like why Cerberus' change wasn't a negative thing, or why I think the endings weren't that bad, only to see threads like Iedra's discussion of Synthesis constantly get ripped apart with things like rape or eugenics comparisons, two words whose meanings are nowhere CLOSE to Synthesis.

So it frustrates me that I could write a thread like your own, with an opposing viewpoint, and likely never get anything more than "lol didn't read" or "endings suck, you're dumb".

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:20 .