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Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut – A Disappointed Fan Responds (Article)


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#126
drayfish

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RiouHotaru wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Again, your opinion is no more or less valid than mine; mine is no more or less valid than yours. And while I would not dismiss yours out of hand, I would hope you could show the same courtesy.


And if you looked at my following post, I explained that I did understand your points, even if I didn't agree.  I merely found the title used for your original post to be suspect.  Since the title of your post is the very first thing I see on the topic list, it didn't give me a very good impression.


As is explained in the very first paragraph of that OP, I did not start nor title that thread (The title is 'My Lit Professor', not 'Me, the self-righteously obnoxious Lit Professor').  I turned up well into the discussion to clarify what had been attributed to my name, and the OP was altered (by the poster who had started it) at that point.

Modifié par drayfish, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:19 .


#127
drayfish

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

War is hell, war is mass genocide, war is both victory and loss plus war is sacrifice. Galactic war is all these things and more. If you expected to come out hills alive with sound of music then I am glad you were shown the error of your ways.


I'll start by ignoring the predictably asinine misrepresentation of legitimate criticism (yep: everyone who had problems with the ending wanted to see Shepard skipping through rainbows and making out with a unicorn), and get straight to the 'war is hell' catchcry.

To me – in reference to this text – this sentiment is highly ...misguided.

I do not see what valid or valuable 'truths of war' can be gleaned from Mass Effect 3. The entire premise of the game is that a conglomerate of civilisations fighting for survival decide to pour all of their resources into a giant, mystery remote control device, based on plans they found hidden under a rock, and firing it up with no idea what it does. And in the end, a space genie pops out and grants your wish. Already the game has skipped so far into the fantastically convenient that analogy to 'real-world' warfare is highly suspect.

And then, no matter what you choose – genocide on friendly allies, ascend to the omnipresent, unstoppable overlord of the galaxy, or eugenically mutate everyone against their will – not a single negative consequence is lingered upon. The game white-washes these horrors – pretends that the universe is gleefully unperturbed by whatever war crime that has been inflicted in their name.

Think of the horrors of war that have been employed in real life in order to achieve victory. Not one of those 'necessary evils' is looked back upon with such gushing praise. If anything, Mass Effect 3 posits that in war, anything is okay because it all washes out in the end. 

Exterminated a race of sentient beings? Doesn't matter, because we can 'Rebuild what we have lost...'

Become a totalitarian overlord? That's okay, because you're you. Everyone likes you!

Violated the genetics of every living being in the universe? Don't fret – they're all happy now. Those silly billies with their entrenched religious and social belief systems... They didn't know what they were talking about. Thank goodness you corrected them.

The game's only message about war seems to be that the only way to solve conflict is to be the guy who pushes the button for the reason that you think is right. It is an infantile premise that exhibits no depth or moral complexity at all. Again: no matter what you choose, everything turns out super-happy-fine and Shepard is an unquestioned hero to all. It's ridiculous.

If you want actual explorations of the potential depravity and sacrifices of warfare, if you want legitimate, multifaceted explorations of loss, and the emotional, spiritual and psychological toll humanity faces in war, I encourage you to explore texts like The Iliad, Catch 22, or A Farewell to Arms

In contrast, pretending that Mass Effect's final arbitrary moral relativity generator says anything about real conflict is deeply worrying.

Modifié par drayfish, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:27 .


#128
RiouHotaru

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Then I'll apologize once again, I was only around back when the thread was "My Lit Professor", and I didn't stick around to see it changed, because again, I found the initial premise to be hard to swallow.

#129
RiouHotaru

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drayfish wrote...

And then, no matter what you choose – genocide on friendly allies, ascend to the omnipresent, unstoppable overlord of the galaxy, or eugenically mutate everyone against their will – not a single negative consequence is lingered upon. The game white-washes these horrors – pretends that the universe is gleefully unperturbed by whatever war crime that has been inflicted in their name.


Okay, I get the distinct feeling people don't know what eugenics means, because this word constantly comes up with regards to Synthesis and eugenics has NOTHING to do with Synthesis:

According to Dictionary.com:

"the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects orpresumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics)  or encouraging reproduction bypersons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)"

Bolded part for emphasis.  You've mutated people yes.  But only genetically, not eugenically.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:30 .


#130
Vigilant111

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

War is hell, war is mass genocide, war is both victory and loss plus war is sacrifice. Galactic war is all these things and more. If you expected to come out hills alive with sound of music then I am glad you were shown the error of your ways.


Excuse me sir, are you grandstanding?

I failed to see the contents in the OP alluding to the contrarary of your sentiments

Throughout Mass Effect trilogy, we have been making sacrifices, it is not a foreign idea. But it has to stop somewhere, it has to worth it, it has to be consistent, to sacrifice ourselves for OUR ideals

#131
drayfish

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Okay, I get the distinct feeling people don't know what eugenics means, because this word constantly comes up with regards to Synthesis and eugenics has NOTHING to do with Synthesis:

According to Dictionary.com:

"the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects orpresumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics)  or encouraging reproduction bypersons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)"

Bolded part for emphasis.  You've mutated people yes.  But not eugenically.

I don't understand the distinction you are attempting to draw here.

The definition of 'eugenics' (from the Oxford Dictionary):

'The science of improving a population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.'

Swap out 'controlled breeding' for the more immediate 'instant genetic reconstitution' and its the same premise. 

Again, the Catalyst believes that unless all species share the same DNA, conflict will continue.  No one species should be 'advantaged' over any other; thus, making everyone biologically the same will dissolve disputes.

Shepard therefore speeds up the process toward a desired eugenic 'endpoint'.

Modifié par drayfish, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:36 .


#132
RiouHotaru

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drayfish wrote...

I don't understand the distinction you are attempting to draw here.

The definition of 'eugenics' (from the Oxford Dictionary):

'The science of improving a population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.'

Swap out 'controlled breeding' for the more immediate 'instant genetic reconstitution' and its the same premise. 

Again, the Catalyst believes that unless all species share the same DNA, conflict will continue.  No one species should be 'advantaged' over any other; thus, making everyone biologically the same will dissolve disputes.

Shepard therefore speeds up the process toward a desired eugenic 'endpoint'.


But if you swap out the terms, you've changed the defintion, and in the process of meaning.  Not everyone will share the exact same DNA.  Turians will still be turians, krogan will be still be krogan.  The Catalyst explainst that what changes is the difference between organics and synthetics.  The EC has him explicitly state what exactly changes:

"Organics will gain the perfection of technology, and synthetics will gain the full understanding of organics that they lack."

At no point does he imply that everyone will be genetically the same.  They'll share the same enhancements most likely.  But that's no more eugenics than what the Alliance's genetic manipulation does to their soldiers to improve performance.  Each soldier is still genetically a different person, they simply share a similar/identical range of enhancements.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:40 .


#133
Outsider edge

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RiouHotaru wrote...

drayfish wrote...

I don't understand the distinction you are attempting to draw here.

The definition of 'eugenics' (from the Oxford Dictionary):

'The science of improving a population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.'

Swap out 'controlled breeding' for the more immediate 'instant genetic reconstitution' and its the same premise. 

Again, the Catalyst believes that unless all species share the same DNA, conflict will continue.  No one species should be 'advantaged' over any other; thus, making everyone biologically the same will dissolve disputes.

Shepard therefore speeds up the process toward a desired eugenic 'endpoint'.


But if you swap out the terms, you've changed the defintion, and in the process of meaning.  Not everyone will share the exact same DNA.  Turians will still be turians, krogan will be still be krogan.  The Catalyst explainst that what changes is the difference between organics and synthetics.  The EC has him explicitly state what exactly changes:

"Organics will gain the perfection of technology, and synthetics will gain the full understanding of organics that they lack."

At no point does he imply that everyone will be genetically the same.  They'll share the same enhancements most likely.  But that's no more eugenics than what the Alliance's genetic manipulation does to their soldiers to improve performance.  Each soldier is still genetically a different person, they simply share a similar/identical range of enhancements.


This is correct. Organisations like the Eugenics Society in the old days actually aimed for superiority through genetic breeding. The Catalyst never states that everyone will be equal through synthesis so eugenics has very little too do with it. Genetic difference is still there it's just that everyone is infused with technological enhancements.

The main issue with synthesis is that it's a pure cyberpunk ending. The unification of technology and flesh too create a new way of existence. The question then remains is the Mass Effect trilogy truly cyberpunk in it's origin? Can the trilogy be compaired too games like Deus Ex, Bioforge or System Shock narrative wise? In each one of those games an ending like synthesis would fit perfectly so why does that same ending get's so much ridicule in Mass Effect 3? Is it perhaps because thematically the shoe doesn't fit at all?

Modifié par Outsider edge, 15 janvier 2013 - 10:02 .


#134
Guest_Fandango_*

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Advocating the use of space magic to change the genetic composition of all life is almost the very definition of eugenics – end of. Any thoughts yet on the merits of a game that celebrates the virtue of saying 'Bro, screw the Geth' but flips the bird at those saying screw the Catalysts racist mantra?

#135
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Outsider edge wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

drayfish wrote...

I don't understand the distinction you are attempting to draw here.

The definition of 'eugenics' (from the Oxford Dictionary):

'The science of improving a population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.'

Swap out 'controlled breeding' for the more immediate 'instant genetic reconstitution' and its the same premise. 

Again, the Catalyst believes that unless all species share the same DNA, conflict will continue.  No one species should be 'advantaged' over any other; thus, making everyone biologically the same will dissolve disputes.

Shepard therefore speeds up the process toward a desired eugenic 'endpoint'.


But if you swap out the terms, you've changed the defintion, and in the process of meaning.  Not everyone will share the exact same DNA.  Turians will still be turians, krogan will be still be krogan.  The Catalyst explainst that what changes is the difference between organics and synthetics.  The EC has him explicitly state what exactly changes:

"Organics will gain the perfection of technology, and synthetics will gain the full understanding of organics that they lack."

At no point does he imply that everyone will be genetically the same.  They'll share the same enhancements most likely.  But that's no more eugenics than what the Alliance's genetic manipulation does to their soldiers to improve performance.  Each soldier is still genetically a different person, they simply share a similar/identical range of enhancements.


This is correct. Organisations like the Eugenics Society in the old days actually aimed for superiority through genetic breeding. The Catalyst never states that everyone will be equal through synthesis so eugenics has very little too do with it. Genetic difference is still there it's just that everyone is infused with technological enhancements.



Nope, Synthesis is much more invasive in that there exists no such thing as organics post 'choice', much less Krogan or Human. Changing the species of every living being without the permission of a single one of them is a horrendous proposition - that the game celebrates the virtue of doing so is disgusting (and for obvious reasons).

Modifié par Fandango9641, 15 janvier 2013 - 10:06 .


#136
Outsider edge

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Advocating the use of space magic to change the genetic composition of all life is almost the very definition of eugenics – end of. Any thoughts yet on the merits of a game that celebrates the virtue of saying 'Bro, screw the Geth' but flips the bird at those saying screw the Catalysts racist mantra?


Eugenics has a big stigma surrounding it that's for sure. But in essence it's no different then cross breeding tomatoes too get a juicier tomato. It's all in essence the same thing. Things become complicated once it's extrapolated too humankind though.

#137
Outsider edge

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

drayfish wrote...

I don't understand the distinction you are attempting to draw here.

The definition of 'eugenics' (from the Oxford Dictionary):

'The science of improving a population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.'

Swap out 'controlled breeding' for the more immediate 'instant genetic reconstitution' and its the same premise. 

Again, the Catalyst believes that unless all species share the same DNA, conflict will continue.  No one species should be 'advantaged' over any other; thus, making everyone biologically the same will dissolve disputes.

Shepard therefore speeds up the process toward a desired eugenic 'endpoint'.


But if you swap out the terms, you've changed the defintion, and in the process of meaning.  Not everyone will share the exact same DNA.  Turians will still be turians, krogan will be still be krogan.  The Catalyst explainst that what changes is the difference between organics and synthetics.  The EC has him explicitly state what exactly changes:

"Organics will gain the perfection of technology, and synthetics will gain the full understanding of organics that they lack."

At no point does he imply that everyone will be genetically the same.  They'll share the same enhancements most likely.  But that's no more eugenics than what the Alliance's genetic manipulation does to their soldiers to improve performance.  Each soldier is still genetically a different person, they simply share a similar/identical range of enhancements.


This is correct. Organisations like the Eugenics Society in the old days actually aimed for superiority through genetic breeding. The Catalyst never states that everyone will be equal through synthesis so eugenics has very little too do with it. Genetic difference is still there it's just that everyone is infused with technological enhancements.



Nope, Synthesis is much more invasive in that there exists no such thing as organics post 'choice', much less Krogan or Human. Changing the species of every living being without the permission of a single one of them is a horrendous proposition - that the game celebrates the virtue of doing so is disgusting (and for obvious reasons).


Yes but i don't think there's much discussion against the abhorrent idea of changing everyone into cyborgs against their will. The discussion was about making everyone equal which isn't the case.

#138
CosmicGnosis

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Has anyone ever asked Michael Gamble or someone else on Twitter about these ethical problems? Seriously, I want some kind of official BioWare response.

#139
RiouHotaru

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Nope, Synthesis is much more invasive in that there exists no such thing as organics post 'choice', much less Krogan or Human. Changing the species of every living being without the permission of a single one of them is a horrendous proposition - that the game celebrates the virtue of doing so is disgusting (and for obvious reasons).


You must have a different definition of invasive than I do, because no one during the Synthesis aftermath looked "violated".  Surprised and confused as to the green stuff in their bodies, but it looked utterly seemless and painless.  Also, the fact is, Shepard was made the representative of the organic races.  This isn't the first time in a game one person makes a big decision for a bunch of other people even if everyone that representative is standing in for hasn't chimed in their own opinion.

Also, the EC proves that none of them seem off-put or horrified by the change in the future.  Perhaps the change is disconcerting or frightening in the short-term, but by the game's epilogue most everyone is fine with it.  Does that really bother you?

#140
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Outsider edge wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Advocating the use of space magic to change the genetic composition of all life is almost the very definition of eugenics – end of. Any thoughts yet on the merits of a game that celebrates the virtue of saying 'Bro, screw the Geth' but flips the bird at those saying screw the Catalysts racist mantra?


Eugenics has a big stigma surrounding it that's for sure. But in essence it's no different then cross breeding tomatoes too get a juicier tomato. It's all in essence the same thing. Things become complicated once it's extrapolated too humankind though.


One does not need to ask a tomato for permission to tweak its genetic composition Outsider edge and synthesis does all this mad work at the touch of a button and wihout the consent of a single, solitary person.

#141
Outsider edge

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Nope, Synthesis is much more invasive in that there exists no such thing as organics post 'choice', much less Krogan or Human. Changing the species of every living being without the permission of a single one of them is a horrendous proposition - that the game celebrates the virtue of doing so is disgusting (and for obvious reasons).


You must have a different definition of invasive than I do, because no one during the Synthesis aftermath looked "violated".  Surprised and confused as to the green stuff in their bodies, but it looked utterly seemless and painless.  Also, the fact is, Shepard was made the representative of the organic races.  This isn't the first time in a game one person makes a big decision for a bunch of other people even if everyone that representative is standing in for hasn't chimed in their own opinion.

Also, the EC proves that none of them seem off-put or horrified by the change in the future.  Perhaps the change is disconcerting or frightening in the short-term, but by the game's epilogue most everyone is fine with it.  Does that really bother you?


Well that's probably even more abhorrent. Synthesis is put forward by Bioware as the 'best' ending. It requires the highest EMS too achive and all the slides in the extended cut show somekind of utopia where everybody is happily living together in peace.

But too achieve that Shepard essentially violates every specie  in the galaxy against their will and turns them into cyborgs. It's a truly disgusting idea that's being put forward as the best ending.

#142
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RiouHotaru wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Nope, Synthesis is much more invasive in that there exists no such thing as organics post 'choice', much less Krogan or Human. Changing the species of every living being without the permission of a single one of them is a horrendous proposition - that the game celebrates the virtue of doing so is disgusting (and for obvious reasons).


You must have a different definition of invasive than I do, because no one during the Synthesis aftermath looked "violated".  Surprised and confused as to the green stuff in their bodies, but it looked utterly seemless and painless.  Also, the fact is, Shepard was made the representative of the organic races.  This isn't the first time in a game one person makes a big decision for a bunch of other people even if everyone that representative is standing in for hasn't chimed in their own opinion.

Also, the EC proves that none of them seem off-put or horrified by the change in the future.  Perhaps the change is disconcerting or frightening in the short-term, but by the game's epilogue most everyone is fine with it.  Does that really bother you?



Yeah, it's kind of the point that the saccharine sentimentality of those EC slides does nothing to show the horrors of each solution. I mean, if you really want to explore this area, replace the words 'organic' and 'synthetic' with two new variables, two that fundamentally differentiate RL human beings (race, gender, sexual orientation, religious denomination, whatever). Now justify to us all the morally repugnant proposition of removing that distinction without the permission of a single, solitary person..

Modifié par Fandango9641, 15 janvier 2013 - 01:15 .


#143
Outsider edge

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Advocating the use of space magic to change the genetic composition of all life is almost the very definition of eugenics – end of. Any thoughts yet on the merits of a game that celebrates the virtue of saying 'Bro, screw the Geth' but flips the bird at those saying screw the Catalysts racist mantra?


Eugenics has a big stigma surrounding it that's for sure. But in essence it's no different then cross breeding tomatoes too get a juicier tomato. It's all in essence the same thing. Things become complicated once it's extrapolated too humankind though.


One does not need to ask a tomato for permission to tweak its genetic composition Outsider edge and synthesis does all this mad work at the touch of a button and wihout the consent of a single, solitary person.


Again i'm not disputting that.

#144
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Outsider edge wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Advocating the use of space magic to change the genetic composition of all life is almost the very definition of eugenics – end of. Any thoughts yet on the merits of a game that celebrates the virtue of saying 'Bro, screw the Geth' but flips the bird at those saying screw the Catalysts racist mantra?


Eugenics has a big stigma surrounding it that's for sure. But in essence it's no different then cross breeding tomatoes too get a juicier tomato. It's all in essence the same thing. Things become complicated once it's extrapolated too humankind though.


One does not need to ask a tomato for permission to tweak its genetic composition Outsider edge and synthesis does all this mad work at the touch of a button and wihout the consent of a single, solitary person.


Again i'm not disputting that.


Sure, I just wanted to make the point.

#145
drayfish

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chemiclord wrote...

Friends, Internet Dwellers, Trolls, lend me your ears.

I come not to defend the endings of Mass Effect 3, but to defend a method of storytelling under attack.

These are not the words of a “pro-ender”; in truth, even with the Extended Cut, they are a logical nightmare, with each attempted plug of a hole often creating an entirely different one. There is no defending the execution that requires a half ton of self-rationalization that should have been explained in game no matter how obvious the writers may have thought it was.

There is no excuse that makes the poorly written logic of the Catalyst any less poor, even if the intent becomes clear with some educated guessing, or that the barest shards of its foreshadowing was not nearly enough to remove the Deus Ex Machina feel it had upon its appearance (even if it does not fit the technical definition of the term).

I do want to thank Drayfish for his/her very well composed piece reflecting his/her disappointment. There is validity to them, especially for a player expecting and anticipating a certain environment and a certain outcome that had been supported through two other games. This rebuttal is not meant as a dismissal of those feelings specifically. However...

Simply put... stories are under no requirement whatsoever to be happy or hopeful or particularly pleasant. Literature is just as valid reflecting reality as it is escaping from it. Whichever one you prefer is a matter of opinion, of course, but a preference for one does not excuse a dismissal of the other.

Nor is their any requirement in the slightest that one installment of a story maintain the same feel as its predecessors, nor does any further sequel need to continue to follow the dark road those previous had taken.

In fact, some of the most heralded of science-fiction tales took such thematic shifts. Star Wars saw “A New Hope” become “The Empire Strikes Back.” Star Trek saw Captain Kirk's boast of never believing in a no-win scenario get mauled and spit back at him with the good of the many outweighing the good of the few.

In this case, Mass Effect decides to take its environmental shift at the end of the trilogy; a reasonably unprecedented move for such a major title. While perhaps ill-advised for the emotions of their players, that in and of itself would not have been the death knell had it been executed properly.

Sometimes, there IS no “perfect” solution. Sometimes tough choices have to be made, and there is no way to come through clean. That is reality. In perhaps that (only) instance, Mass Effect 3 executes a realist story well. No option you have is a particularly “happy” one. It's a value exercise; intended for the player to think and engage their own values as what is most important to them. When pressed, what choice would you make and why? It's meant for the player to get a look at themselves as much as the world they are in.

A “golden ending” would inherently defeat the moral question. There'd be no logical reason to take any other solution. To do otherwise would be doing it “wrong.”

The Extended Cut adds a refuse option, which while obviously the equivalent of a rude gesture from the writers to the fans, is also a remarkably well done Realist perspective. You can certainly choose not to betray your ideals, and you can certainly stand for what you believe in... but those that do so in the face of the reality of the situation inevitably lose. It's one thing to have hope and faith; it's entirely another to expect those alone to carry you. Fortune favors the bold, and survival favors the fittest.

Video Games are seeing a push to become a widely accepted form of story-telling. That requires that they push beyond the obviously emotionally satisfying conclusion. Books, movies, plays... they all accept and embrace reality as often and as readily as they escape in flights of fancy. Both have their place.

Mass Effect 3 is a truly disastrous conclusion, but not because of it's attempt. One of the marks that separates a good writer from a great writer is that a good writer gives the reader what he/she wants; while a great writer gives the reader what the writer wants and convinces the reader that it's what he/she wanted as well.

Mass Effect 3 abjectly does not succeed at doing this. It is a narrative mess that is as much a travesty to Realists as it is to Romantics. It violates many basic axioms of good writing for seemingly little reason, and leaves so many things open to interpretation that no sound interpretation is possible. The potential value discussion is lost because there's next to nothing provided by the endings to formulate a logical defense for or against any path taken.

And that is where the game fails... not in its attempt, but in its composition.


Thank you for the very, very fine post chemiclord, and for such a reasoned, intelligent, cogent analysis. 

There is much within your comments with which I agree, but I think we fundamentally differ  on our notions of 'thematic shift' in general, and certainly in how it applies to the examples you mentioned, and the conclusion of Mass Effect 3.

Firstly, though, I should point out that at no point did I argue that the game (or fiction in general) had an obligation to end happily. In fact this is a common, completely unjust accusation that frequently gets lobbed at anyone who despairs – for whatever reason – at the ending. I was fully expecting an ending dripping in sorrow and pathos (the universe is ending – there has to be a price to earn our way back from such dire circumstances) – but I would argue that there is a distinct difference between death and loss and compromise, and having the death of the characters who sacrificed all undermined by completely betraying the values those characters died to protect.

Fundamentally, what I was talking about in that article was the underlying nihilism that the ending advocates, the hopelessness that it promotes: You can't win by believing in your fellow allies, fighting for unity, or working together, so you may as well give up and embrace the beliefs of your enemy. At least then you get to kill him.

Sure you fought for three games to stop the genocide of species in order to serve a 'greater purpose' – but that doesn't matter, because in the end you are compelled to do precisely that yourself and decide the Geth are a necessary cost for victory. Sure, you were revolted by the arrogance and presumption of anyone who would seek to stand above all others and dictate to them how they should live – but in the end you have to put on the uber-Shepard robes, becoming the most powerful, unstoppable god that ever lived. Sure, the grotesquery of Reaper huskification disgusted you, and the atrocities of the Genophage showed the ugliness and egotism of those who would genetically alter autonomous species against their will – but then you get to press that button yourself. Because it's totally different if you do it.

Shepard is made a hypocrite and coward in her final moments – proving valid the world view of an enemy who represents every intolerant, hopeless, conceited vision of existence in human history, endorsing the vision of a cold, calculating lunatic that would presume to remake the universe to its specifications. As I mentioned before, the only people who do not have to wholly betray their beliefs in that last decision are those who think that it is completely acceptable to employ such vile tactics in the first place. Instead, they get told repeatedly by the game that their nihilism and intolerance are the only 'correct' way to survive and thrive. 

Probably the best way to explain where I am coming from is to use the examples that you offered as evidence of such narrative shifts working – because I think in truth you might be confusing the ideas of melancholy and total thematic contradiction. Even in your examples, each film evolves into a more sombre, mournful tone, but they never embrace such an absolute reversal of the narrative's moral undercurrent as is evidenced in Mass Effect 3:

The Empire Strikes Back affects a darker tone in its narrative (as, I might add, the knowingly darker midpoint of the tale before the happier resolve of Jedi), but at no point in Luke's grieving at the revelations that he has suffered does he then embrace the dark side, giving over to it utterly. The film does not thereby advocate hopelessness and surrender as an appropriate reaction that should be celebrated. Indeed, ignore the horrid Ewoks, and redemption, and holding firm to one's faith in others is the entire point of the sequel that Empire directly sets up.

Similarly, in Wrath of Khan (again only temporarily a darker journey before the happier resolve of The Search for Spock), the lesson learned is that Kirk is not immortal, and he can't win every time. The point is not that he may as well give over to Khan's arrogant, egomaniacal style of merciless vengeance. Kirk does not kick Spock into the reactor and shake his head mournfully that as Captain he had to make the tough choice.  He retains his humanity, believes in the rights and autonomy of his crew, and fights for something, not just to stay alive.

Actually, Spock's actions are a perfect example of what is wrong with ME's ending.  Spock sacrifices himself;Shepard is instead forced (in one way or another, no matter what you choose) to sacrifice others, to arrogantly presumes that her beliefs trump those of everyone else in the universe. At the end of Mass Effect Shepard is compelled to employ one of three atrocities that she has expressly, repeatedly stopped others employing to achieve their own ends. She either robs people of their most basic autonomy; judges one form of life more valid than another; or believes that peace can only be achieved by policing the universe herself.  Just like a Reaper.

The three games were based upon the conceit that it was you the player's morality that was being explored. Which do you think is the bigger threat: curing the Genophage, or not trusting a species like the Krogan with self-determination; taking a gamble on the Racchni, or exterminating them; siding with Geth or Quarian; letting Garrus exact revenge, or trying to help him on a new path. But that is utterly undermined by the endpoint.

I would be more willing to embrace the notion of value testing that you nicely describe, were it not for the fact that the game so artlessly weighs three war crimes against each other for cheap effect.  Were the price of Destroy non-discriminate death (Reapers blow up and kill whoever is nearby, for example), rather than a targeted extermination of a specific race in order to stop the targeted extermination of races, I would find it had genuine gravitas. Were Synthesis about the proposed voluntary alteration of species (Shepard becoming an advocate for the evolutionary future that all could embrace rather than have her force it upon them), it could be a beautiful, potentially mournful vision of the need to adapt and change together, to become something greater.  Were Control about freeing the Reapers from their servitude, sacrificing Shepard to break the hold the Catalyst had upon these brutalised civilisations, innocents mutilated to become the tools of further devastation.  Were this tale genuinely about the price of these actions, not simply 'Which one do you like better because it all shakes out okay anyway', I would have celebrated the attempt that I think you rightly point out was Bioware's misguided goal. As it stands, however, all it poses is a kind of tedious hypothetical:

'Hey, if you had to be blind or deaf, which would you be?'

'Well, obviously I'd genetically mutate everyone to be the same. Then no one has to learn to appreciate the difference anyway...'

Modifié par drayfish, 15 janvier 2013 - 10:57 .


#146
Archonsg

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Chris Priestly once asked on this forum, if we no longer care about the ME game or world that was created for it, why are we here?

It is a valid question.

Some of the more rabid supporters claim those who still have issues with the game, hate the game, hence the degradatory term, "haters" when that cannot be further than the truth.

This article by Drayfish is a very good example of that truth.
Because only someone who loved, loves the Mass Effect Universe would take the time to express his dissatisfaction, his issues in such a manner spelling out not just what he thinks what is wrong but why as well.

It is constructive and insightful and if you read it in entirety gives Bioware a window into why so many of us are still dissatisfied, even with the EC.

Unfortunately, for some, they see this as a challenge to *thier point of view*.
It is not , it is *a point of view*.
A point of view shared by many.

Like me for example.
While some saw the manner of Shepard's death as "sacrifice", I saw in each and every of the original three choices, an ultimatum made by the Catalyst to force Shepard to accept suicide under duress.

Like as in a warlord telling a farmer to choose which of of two daughters will warm his bed, on pain of death if he refuse.

Such a choice isn't "sacrifice" to me because it was a product of a demand, not one made willingly, and here's the key to my understanding of "sacrifice", out of one's own volition.

To me, ME3 ended in one of the most Nihilistic way possible. Well the EC did sugar coat it and for some that is good enough but for me, it still boils down to the fact that there is *nothing* you can do to prevent Shepard from taking that path towards compromise and forced suicide.

So, coming back to this article, Mr Priestly's, and why some of us are still here, is that it's we do love the MEU.
We are still here because we still want to remind you that there are points of views, valid ones, that others may not see or want to see.
We are like the friend who is telling someone he is too drunk to drive.
It may not be something he wants to hear, but we do have the best of intentions.

#147
CosmicGnosis

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drayfish wrote...

Sure you fought for three games to stop the genocide of species in order to serve a 'greater purpose' – but that doesn't matter, because in the end you are compelled to do precisely that yourself and decide the Geth are a necessary cost for victory. Sure, you were revolted by the arrogance and presumption of anyone who would seek to stand above all others and dictate to them how they should live – but in the end you have to put on the uber-Shepard robes, becoming the most powerful, unstoppable god that ever lived. Sure, the grotesquery of Reaper huskification disgusted you, and the atrocities of the Genophage showed the ugliness and egotism of those who would genetically alter autonomous species against their will – but then you get to press that button yourself. Because it's totally different if you do it.


This is one hell of a paragraph. :unsure:

drayfish wrote...

I would be more willing to embrace the notion of value testing that you nicely describe, were it not for the fact that the game so artlessly weighs three war crimes against each other for cheap effect.  Were the price of Destroy non-discriminate death (Reapers blow up and kill whoever is nearby, for example), rather than a targeted extermination of a specific race in order to stop the targeted extermination of races, I would find it had genuine gravitas. Were Synthesis about the proposed voluntary alteration of species (Shepard becoming an advocate for the evolutionary future that all could embrace rather than have her force it upon them), it could be a beautiful, potentially mournful vision of the need to adapt and change together, to become something greater.  Were Control about freeing the Reapers from their servitude, sacrificing Shepard to break the hold the Catalyst had upon these brutalised civilisations, innocents mutilated to become the tools of further devastation.  Were this tale genuinely about the price of these actions, not simply 'Which one do you like better because it all shakes out okay anyway', I would have celebrated the attempt that I think you rightly point out was Bioware's misguided goal.


This is it. This is exactly what I want. :pinched:

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 15 janvier 2013 - 11:09 .


#148
tilusN7

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drayfish wrote...

Were Control about freeing the Reapers from their servitude, sacrificing Shepard to break the hold the Catalyst had upon these brutalised civilisations, innocents mutilated to become the tools of further devastation.  


This is why I prefer Control pre-extended cut. In the vanilla endings, control was really the wild card of the three. You had no clear idea of what would happen. (Note that I still dislike the endings, but I feel for me at least that control-preEC is the least of three evils.)

In my story, Shepard set out to destroy the reapers, but also forged an alliance that united a galaxy. He was bold enough to say no to destroy because that required making a sacrifice he wasn't willing to make. In control, he could sacrifice only himself to save everyone he fought for. Synthesis was never an option, making so drastic a change on behalf of a galaxy was not his choice to make.

If each cycle fought the reapers, as we must assume they did, we can then assume that each civilization did not want to be apart of the 'perfection' the reapers forced upon them. Why in their death, or 'ascension' if you ask the catalyst, would they want to wish this fate upon anyone else.

When I picked control, the first thing I imagined was flying the reapers into whatever star was closest, not even a reaper could survive such a hostile environment. This left the galaxy's fate in Shepard's hands and left him as the only death he was responsible for as a result of his choice. This also freed the races who became the reapers from their unending nightmare.

I don't believe 'The Shepard' has any more right to direct the future of the galaxy than 'The Catalyst' did, which is why the extended cut failed for me.

#149
crimzontearz

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CronoDragoon wrote...

This is a fair criticism of a Paragon Destroy Shepard (especially one that does peace on Rannoch), but doesn't really apply to the others. Moreover, the premises on which it bases its conclusion are questionable: is the destruction of synthetics in Destroy genocide or unfortunate collateral damage? Is Control about domination or the prevention of harm to the galaxy of the sort that exists in Destroy? Isn't Control just an extension of the type of god-like status Shepard has gradually assumed during the course of his ME journey?

The argument begins with a negative viewpoint of the endings, and then concludes negatively, which is something of a tautology.

I disagree

#150
Guest_Fandango_*

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Archonsg wrote...

Chris Priestly once asked on this forum, if we no longer care about the ME game or world that was created for it, why are we here?

It is a valid question.

Some of the more rabid supporters claim those who still have issues with the game, hate the game, hence the degradatory term, "haters" when that cannot be further than the truth.

This article by Drayfish is a very good example of that truth.
Because only someone who loved, loves the Mass Effect Universe would take the time to express his dissatisfaction, his issues in such a manner spelling out not just what he thinks what is wrong but why as well.

It is constructive and insightful and if you read it in entirety gives Bioware a window into why so many of us are still dissatisfied, even with the EC.

Unfortunately, for some, they see this as a challenge to *thier point of view*.
It is not , it is *a point of view*.
A point of view shared by many.

Like me for example.
While some saw the manner of Shepard's death as "sacrifice", I saw in each and every of the original three choices, an ultimatum made by the Catalyst to force Shepard to accept suicide under duress.

Like as in a warlord telling a farmer to choose which of of two daughters will warm his bed, on pain of death if he refuse.

Such a choice isn't "sacrifice" to me because it was a product of a demand, not one made willingly, and here's the key to my understanding of "sacrifice", out of one's own volition.

To me, ME3 ended in one of the most Nihilistic way possible. Well the EC did sugar coat it and for some that is good enough but for me, it still boils down to the fact that there is *nothing* you can do to prevent Shepard from taking that path towards compromise and forced suicide.

So, coming back to this article, Mr Priestly's, and why some of us are still here, is that it's we do love the MEU.
We are still here because we still want to remind you that there are points of views, valid ones, that others may not see or want to see.
We are like the friend who is telling someone he is too drunk to drive.
It may not be something he wants to hear, but we do have the best of intentions.


Wonderfully put.