238 réponses à ce sujet

[CosmicGnosis]

I don't choose Destroy for the following reasons:

- Kills synthetics; prevents synthetics from continuing their quest for personhood

- The galaxy is prejudiced against synthetic intelligences; choosing Destroy does nothing to challenge this prejudice

- It's clearly the pro-organic choice; Shepard's synthetic aspect is sacrificed so that his organic aspect can survive (the opposite of Control)

- Depending on EMS, it either destroys or damages technology; even if technology is merely damaged, there is a cleaner way to end the cycle (Control)

- Throws away the knowledge contained within the Reapers; in my opinion, conquering the Lovecraftian entities means understanding them, not killing them and treating them as mysterious, unknowable monsters

- One of the leaked scripts had a more consistent version of Destroy; the mass relays were destroyed only in that specific ending (this is relevant because it provides insight into the logic of the Destroy choice)


If you disagree with my interpretation, please explain.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 14 janvier 2013 - 10:12 .

[Mcfly616]

It's not inherently or thematically anti-synthetic because the option isn't to specifically destroy "all" synthetics. It destroys Reaper code/tech.

Unfortunately, 99% of the synthetics in the galaxy (the Geth) have been upgraded with Reaper code/tech.

[Indy_S]

I don't think it is possible to explain why Destroy is not thematically anti-synthetic. You're reasons for not choosing it are pretty strong with regards to that theme. Assuming the conflict is 'inevitable', Destroy directly stalls the issue, as does Synthesis, as does the cycles. Destroy is the only one that removes the influence of the cycle and allows for the chance to change. Allowing the people of the future to come to their own decision about synthetics is perhaps the only way that they will gain an equal standing in life.

Or you could just force equality with the other two choices.

EDIT: McFly, that is NOT true. The Catalyst specifically says 'all synthetics'.

Modifié par Indy_S, 14 janvier 2013 - 07:49 .

[Hey]

Yeah, if I played as a synthetic PC and destroy killed all organics (me being an organic gamer) I would definitely have a harder time doing it. It is racist.

Futhermore I would sick a geth on a bear and not my dog.

[DeinonSlayer]

Indy_S wrote...

I don't think it is possible to explain why Destroy is not thematically anti-synthetic. You're reasons for not choosing it are pretty strong with regards to that theme. Assuming the conflict is 'inevitable', Destroy directly stalls the issue, as does Synthesis, as does the cycles. Destroy is the only one that removes the influence of the cycle and allows for the chance to change. Allowing the people of the future to come to their own decision about synthetics is perhaps the only way that they will gain an equal standing in life.

Or you could just force equality with the other two choices.

EDIT: McFly, that is NOT true. The Catalyst specifically says 'all synthetics'.

Reapers die. EDI dies. Geth die. Both are based on Reaper tech. Starbrat implies Shepard will die on account of being partially synthetic, but Shepard lives. The Quarians live. Biotics live - all of them infused with cybernetic implants. Reaper tech is the only common thread among the entities which are targeted.

But yes - going into the decision, Shepard has no way of knowing that.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 14 janvier 2013 - 07:57 .

[CosmicGnosis]

This is the script that I'm referring to:


Shepard: What is it you want from me?

Catalyst: I can harness and direct the energy of the Crucible.

Catalyst: But you must choose how to release it.

Catalyst: And you must decide the form its energy will take.

Shepard: I don’t understand.

Catalyst: The energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be destroyed.

Catalyst: As will much of the technology your kind rely on.

Catalyst: Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.

Shepard: And the other choice?

Catalyst: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.

Shepard: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.

Catalyst: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.

Shepard: And what happens to me?

Catalyst: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.

Shepard: But the Reapers will obey me?

Catalyst: Correct.

Catalyst: There is another choice.

Catalyst: My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.

Shepard: Combine?

Catalyst: Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.

Catalyst: If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.

Catalyst: We, will become like you, and organic life will become like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.

Catalyst: But you must choose.

Catalyst: But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.

Catalyst: Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 14 janvier 2013 - 08:02 .

[Indy_S]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

I don't think it is possible to explain why Destroy is not thematically anti-synthetic. You're reasons for not choosing it are pretty strong with regards to that theme. Assuming the conflict is 'inevitable', Destroy directly stalls the issue, as does Synthesis, as does the cycles. Destroy is the only one that removes the influence of the cycle and allows for the chance to change. Allowing the people of the future to come to their own decision about synthetics is perhaps the only way that they will gain an equal standing in life.

Or you could just force equality with the other two choices.

EDIT: McFly, that is NOT true. The Catalyst specifically says 'all synthetics'.

Reapers die. EDI dies. Geth die. Both are based on Reaper tech. Starbrat implies Shepard will die on account of being partially synthetic, but Shepard lives. The Quarians live. Biotics live - all of them infused with cybernetic implants. Reaper tech is the only common thread among the entities which are targeted.

I have no idea what constitutes synthetic life because the starbrat said 'Even you are partly synthetic.' That really muddled me up. I assume it meant that it targeted technology, because of that, but you're right. Technology survives, and Shepard complete with implants can survive. I'm still not sure it targets Reaper tech because the Citadel survives. Conceptually muddy, the idea behind Destroy.

[MacroSpamMK]

I'm pretty sure it destroys everything with reaper code and temporarily deactivates/damages reaper based technology.
So I think mass relays and citadel get damaged, along with everything which is reverse engineered from reaper technology, like mass effect drives. Meanwhile, the toaster in my kitchen probably won't be effected unless it is a reaper artifact and if that is the case I'm likely indoctrinated.

Modifié par MacroSpamMK, 14 janvier 2013 - 08:04 .

[Mcfly616]

Indy_S wrote...

I don't think it is possible to explain why Destroy is not thematically anti-synthetic. You're reasons for not choosing it are pretty strong with regards to that theme. Assuming the conflict is 'inevitable', Destroy directly stalls the issue, as does Synthesis, as does the cycles. Destroy is the only one that removes the influence of the cycle and allows for the chance to change. Allowing the people of the future to come to their own decision about synthetics is perhaps the only way that they will gain an equal standing in life.

Or you could just force equality with the other two choices.

EDIT: McFly, that is NOT true. The Catalyst specifically says 'all synthetics'.

pretty sure he does not specifically say "all" (and even if he did, he's not really lying. The Geth represent the entire synthetic population of the galaxy). Secondly, nearly everything it says is in a very vague yet broad manner. The mass relays aren't synthetic are they? Yet they are damaged to all hell. Because they are Reaper tech. It's not explained word for word(nothing is, with the Catalyst), but its quite obvious and implied.


When he says synthetics will be affected, he's saying it because they have been integrated with Reaper code. He's not saying the Crucible targets all synthetics. The Crucible affects Reaper code. Pretty much all of the synthetic population has Reaper code, therefore the Catalyst isn't incorrect when saying synthetics will be affected.

[Indy_S]

I like that script, really changes the paradigm and would make control more appealing. Synthesis comes off even worse from that though. BioWare's chosen favourite is reduced to 'this'll fix it'.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
- It's clearly the pro-organic choice; Shepard's synthetic aspect is sacrificed so that his organic aspect can survive (the opposite of Control)

I am fairly certain that Shepard does not lose his cybernetics in destroy. Consider how intergrained they are in him.

[Fixers0]

 Keep in mind, that as with all options, save refusal, Destroy is both thematic and scientific and internally inconsistant, We have no accurate understanding on what defines "synthetics" as it stands our Cruisers and Dreadnoughts are also made of synthethic materialsm, yet they clearly still function in destroy, how the red destroy blast would be able to distinguish the exterior shell of a geth platform or a Loki mech remains a mystery.  

[DirtyPhoenix]

I think it needs to be made clear that starbrat all synthetics will die. Synthetics in MEU, immplies artificially created life. Quarians, biotics.. however implanted they are, aren't artificially created lives (or AIs).

[DeinonSlayer]

frudi wrote...

Before I answer any OP's questions, I'd first like to see indisputable evidence of synthetics actually getting destroyed by the red wave of space magic. At least one example? Surely we see at least one synthetic getting destroyed, don't we? Oh...

EDI's name on the memorial wall. Rannoch either populated solely by the Quarians, or a barren, decaying wasteland in the EC slides. They're dead in Destroy.

[DeinonSlayer]

pirate1802 wrote...

I think it needs to be made clear that starbrat all synthetics will die. Synthetics in MEU, immplies artificially created life. Quarians, biotics.. however implanted they are, aren't artificially created lives (or AIs).

Then why is Miranda still here? 

[DirtyPhoenix]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I think it needs to be made clear that starbrat all synthetics will die. Synthetics in MEU, immplies artificially created life. Quarians, biotics.. however implanted they are, aren't artificially created lives (or AIs).

Then why is Miranda still here? 

I'm not an expert of this subject, but isn't her birth comparable to that of a test-tube baby? Anyway, her DNA is still human, just her birth is different from others.

[Indy_S]

Shepard is part AI? That isn't quite right. Shepard is implanted with a bunch of miscellaneous tech but that's about it. And he is 'partly synthetic'. That one line breaks Destroy so much. Couldn't they just say the Crucible might explode or something better?

As to Miranda being alive, well... 'synthetic' doesn't mean what it means in the real world, apparently. I was wondering how a cloned sheep would enjoy gaining organic understanding as well, but it just doesn't seem to happen.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Well, there's a limit to which I can comprehend the ending. My interpretation of destroy fails at "partly synthetic" line, just as my interpretation of synthesis fails at "final stage of evolution". Sadly. :|

[Indy_S]

Yeah, it's still a muddled and confusing mess of reasoning and illogical statements.

[clennon8]

Control and Synthesis are capitulations. Last minute religious conversions.

Destroy is a rejection of the Catalyst's doctrine. A vote for self-determinism.

[MstrJedi Kyle]

It would be but EDI's "I'm alive" line in synthesis tells me that before synthetics weren't alive to begin with. If there is no loss of life then there is no moral decision.

[Liamv2]

Omg you shaid somthing bad about destroi you ish indoctrinated

[TheBlackBaron]

- Kills synthetics; prevents synthetics from continuing their quest for personhood

Here's the thing about synthetics - seeing as they're, you know, synthetic, we can always -build- and -program- more. 

- The galaxy is prejudiced again synthetic intelligences; choosing Destroy does nothing to challenge this prejudice

Perhaps synthetics should work to challenge this themselves, instead of a) asking an organic to do it for them, moaning and weeping about how misunderstood they are, and c) engaging in hostile isolation for the better part of 300 years. Shooting foreign craft on sight is not a great way to endear yourself to the galaxy at large. 

- It's clearly the pro-organic choice; Shepard's synthetic aspect is sacrificed so that his organic aspect can survive (the opposite of Control)

You say this like it's a bad thing. But in any event, why -is- this a bad thing? What makes this inferior to sacrificing his organic aspects so that the synthetic ones survive? 

- Depending on EMS, it either destroys or damages technology; even if technology is merely damaged, there is a cleaner way to end the cycle (Control)

Quite the contrary. The only thing that seems to be damaged or destroyed are the relays and synthetic intelligences. Both of which are eminently replaceable. 

- Throws away the knowledge contained within the Reapers; in my opinion, conquering the Lovecraftian entities means understanding them, not killing them and treating them as mysterious, unknowable monsters

In Lovecraft's mythos, attempting to understand or comprehend what you're facing tends to only lead to being driven insane. 

It's like the Ark at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. You can't really "look" at them without being struck down. Not that this would ever happen in a Lovecraft story, but if you get the chance to destroy one of them, or in ME's case, many of them, you take it. 

- One of the leaked scripts had a more consistent version of Destroy; the mass relays were destroyed only in that specific ending (this is relevant because it provides insight into the logic of the Destroy choice)

Irrelevant, as this isn't the case in the final game, but Bioware hardly needs to further beat into players that they think Synthesis is the best option. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:04 .