238 réponses à ce sujet

[Knubbsal]

All synthetic life doesn't mean "everything synthetic". Seems to me it targets only reaper tech and AIs.

Geth are both. EDI is both. Mass effect tech is probably mostly reaper tech. Maybe this is why some implants and devices stop working too. And lastly other AIs, but there shouldn't be many of those around anyway.

I chose destroy mostly to get rid of that god AI once and for all. The surviving races might be more willing to regulate AIs in the future to prevent things like the geth incident and the creation of reapers. Something is bound to go wrong in ME4 ;p

edit: destroy doesn't have to be a bias against synthetics. I consider them collateral damage, just like those batarians Shepard killed to give the rest more time. Just like those humans Vega didn't save. I would've sacrificed any other race too, just to get rid of the reapers. Unfortunately the vorcha weren't an option!

Modifié par Knubbsal, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:38 .

[TheWerdna]

If you take the choice in regards to starbrat's logic? Yes

However, I would take destroy whether synthetics are destroyed or not, or even if instead it killed all humans. For me, the death of the synthetics is a casualty, and necessary evil to ensure the Reapers are never a threat again.

[MegaSovereign]

If you convinced the Quarians to make peace with the Geth, then they will see the value of synthetic life later in the game. Because of this, history won't necessarily repeat itself if and when they decide to make new synthetics.

How the galaxy views synthetic life is ultimately up to the outcome of Rannoch. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter why Shepard chose Destroy.

You can't really use the old scripts to prove the intentions behind the Destroy ending. The reason why I say this is because the Extended Cut already changed the context of all three choices.

[fiendishchicken]

I'm not anti-synthetic, so much as I am anti-reaper. That's why I pick destroy. I want to see the Reapers gone from the universe. EDI and the Geth do as well. They would understand the nature of the sacrifice I am about to make. The death of the Reapers requires their deaths as well. It's sad, tragic even, but I'm not going flinch from it. It needs to be done.

[dreamgazer]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Eh, the jury's out on Synthesis. I hate "organic energy" and forced change!

How do you feel about the galaxy acclimating to the presence of the all-powerful, life-extinguishing Reaper guardians as a "forced change"?

[IC-07]

I want to destroy the reapers, so the threat will be gone for sure. Geth are, unfortunately, killed in the process. Assuming that it's racism is a sign of low intelligence.

Modifié par IC-07, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:23 .

[Bill Casey]

More than any other option, the meaning of face value Destroy is affected by previous choices. The statement on synthetic life is made by Shepard throughout the trilogy, and determines whether the death of the Geth is a horrible Arrival situation or a bunch of toasters frying...

The Catalyst has a vested interest in framing the argument towards synthesis and praying on guilt...
He is posing as a dead child, after all...

Destroy is very much an assertion that Organics and Synthetics can find a way to work out their problems on their own. There's no reason to pick it otherwise. It wipes out all of the progress you've made with organic/synthetic relations, and there are no more reapers to "save" you from this boogeyman of synthetics wiping you out. Minds aren't going to change overnight. This is an assertion that we will find a way to coexist in the future...



Garrus brings up the "Ruthless Calculus of War", to which Shepard can take a moral stand against. But what is rarely brought up is there's a second conversation where Garrus has to make a tough call where's there's no other viable options. Garrus says "It all comes down to the Crucible now." to which a rather resigned and deflated Shepard replies "...and Ruthless Calculus"



The Destroy epilogue in many ways puts synthetics as equals to organics...
EDI's name is on the memorial wall alongside organics, and Hackett talks about the sacrifices of those who fought and died alongside us being remembered, set to a picture of Legion if you do well enough...

In Synthesis, there's the implication that they needed to understand organics to be truly alive. In destroy, they are treated as a valid form of life worth eulogizing...

In Arrival, you killed 300,000 batarians to slow the Reapers down. Rana Thanoptis runs from you because everywhere you go, things blow up...

Destroy
Advocate: Your father figure
Music: Bittersweet and hopeful

Control
Advocate: Bad guy who gets talked into shooting himself in the head
Music: Dark and Ominous

Synthesis
Advocate: The enemy leader who brainwashed the bad guy who shot himself in the head, and is taking the form of the dead child you watched his henchmen murder in front of you.
Music: Strange, Mysterious and Sad

I believe you already made a thread about the epilogue text...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 14 janvier 2013 - 06:30 .

[RiouHotaru]

Destroy is the assertion that the problem either:

A) Does not exist (you disbelieve in the conflict on principle)

or

Can be solved without the need for the Reapers

[ZerebusPrime]

Here's the thing. I NEED to destroy the Reapers. If I'm told that all of humanity will die as a consequence, the Reapers still need to die. The cycle has to be broken and the only way to do that for certain is to eliminate the ones running it.

[Kabooooom]

Destroy was obviously intended to be the anti-synthetic choice, but it backfired on Bioware since they did it so damn poorly. Many people, including myself, have chosen destroy regardless of the fact that it wipes out synthetics NOT because we view synthetics as lesser life, but because we view them as EQUAL life.

If it had wiped out the salarians, asari, turians, or even the humans I would have still chosen it and for the same reasons. One species is not more important, or more superior, than any other. I consider the Geth to be on equal footing with the rest. It is unfortunate that they are wiped out, but they are not wiped out because I consider them to be unworthy of life.

[Dhoozy77]

We need to take out the reapers they have bind us into a cycle. We need to break free and in the future if synthetic goes crazy again we 'll fire up the crucible again since it's guarantee to kill all synthetic at low cost to organics.

[Taboo]

Ah yes but if the Geth are dead already. Burn everything!

[Cyberfrog81]

Reapers are mostly synthetic. Their minds are 100% synthetic, as far as anyone has been able to tell. Yet enslaving them is not thematically anti-synthetic? Oo-kay.

guacamayus wrote...

I see destroy as the renegade ending; the end justify the means. To stop the war you must sacrifice an ally who's sworn to help you. I don't think I would choose this because this line of thinking sets the stage for anything after... what kind of society are we going to build if we base it on these ideals?

No, I think you got that backwards. A paragon Shepard who achieved peace on Rannoch and chose Destroy (and survived)... is he going to honor this incredible sacrifice? Of course he is! Shepard won't stand for racist BS. The geth and EDI will be remembered as heroes who fought alongside the organics to save the whole damn galaxy.

Will the geth be rebuilt? Probably not. If you believe their existance was unique and precious (call it having souls if you will), that would be offensive. What might happen eventually, is another accident (as originally with the geth). People will still want tools to make their lives easier, and they will still be scientifically curious. And thanks to previous events, this time the AI / synthetics just might be treated better. Equality for synthetics shouldn't be a strange concept at all.

So the galaxy has matured, and can prosper, given that Reapers can never again interfere. Control may be true power, but Destroy is true freedom.

[Wayning_Star]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This is the script that I'm referring to:


Shepard: What is it you want from me?

Catalyst: I can harness and direct the energy of the Crucible.

Catalyst: But you must choose how to release it.

Catalyst: And you must decide the form its energy will take.

Shepard: I don’t understand.

Catalyst: The energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will be destroyed.

Catalyst: As will much of the technology your kind rely on.

Catalyst: Including the relays you will use to dispense the energy.

Shepard: And the other choice?

Catalyst: You may harness the energy. Use it to circumvent my control of the Reapers.

Shepard: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.

Catalyst: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.

Shepard: And what happens to me?

Catalyst: You will subvert my existence. You will control the Reapers. You will continue to seek an answer to problem.

Shepard: But the Reapers will obey me?

Catalyst: Correct.

Catalyst: There is another choice.

Catalyst: My ultimate goal, the exact solution to the singularity problem, is to combine the synthetic and the organic.

Shepard: Combine?

Catalyst: Much like yourself. You are already a melding of both.

Catalyst: If you choose so, your energy, combined with that of the Crucible, can be used to convert, and transform each of our kind.

Catalyst: We, will become like you, and organic life will become like us. And the problem of Technological Singularity will be solved.

Catalyst: But you must choose.

Catalyst: But you must act. It must be your volition that guides my actions.

Catalyst: Go. If you falter now, the cycle will continue. I will not act as Catalyst if you do not act first.

I've never seen any of that in the game?

[Wayning_Star]

the story it too complicated by gamers.. bummer.


edit: too many Sheps and not enough canons..

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:23 .

[Han Shot First]

Destroy is not thematically anti-synthetic because the goal was never to destroy all Synthetics. The goal was to destroy the Reapers, and Synthetics like the Geth or EDI are only lost as collateral damage.

[Wayning_Star]

destroy won't work to end the reaper threat...well, at least the chaos, well maybe the Leviathan propencity to apex.. or all of the aforementioned.

Sure, OP it's anti synthetic, especially reaperized synthetics. But.. the bad part is that destroy MUST include all reaper technology in the MEU to succeed in ending the crisis. As is, it is too limited, a kind of 'bridge of pearls', where the near defeated armies are seduced by a probable escape route, only to find it's just another trap. Looks good on paper, but in reality, it's just more of the same...

[CosmicGnosis]

It's amazing that I don't share the mainstream sentiment of "killing Reapers = good". It's not in me. It's just not. Given what we know about the Catalyst, the Reapers are clearly innocent. No organic species that was forcibly uploaded into a Reaper would willingly do the same to other species. The Catalyst is the "bad guy", and even then it's simply an alien being that has no obligation to follow human morality. It's all an unfortunate cosmic accident.

There is at least one better way of ending the cycle than blowing up the hated domain of life and wrecking the galactic infrastructure.

I hate the fact that BioWare completely botched the thematic consistency of Destroy. It used to be the choice that clearly freed the galaxy of all Reaper influence by destroying all Reaper technology, along with all synthetics. It seemed to be the "return to nature" ending. In its current state, it's now somewhat incoherent. You kill all synthetics and destroy the mass relays... but the relays can be rebuilt? What? Don't they have the "taint" of Reaper influence? Oh, and now the Shepard AI is going to impose his will upon the galaxy? Great. Or he could spread his "organic energy" around?

*Sigh*

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:32 .

[Steelcan]

Well I don't see a thematic inconsistency. Destroy is about rejecting the cycle as necessary and killing the reapers. I'm not going to ignore the technology just because of its origin. I pick Destroy usually, but I don't do it because I hate the reapers.

but there may be a difference of opinion on this matter

Modifié par Steelcan, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:43 .

[Han Shot First]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

It's amazing that I don't share the mainstream sentiment of "killing Reapers = good". It's not in me. It's just not. Given what we know about the Catalyst, the Reapers are clearly innocent. No organic species that was forcibly uploaded into a Reaper would willingly do the same to other species. The Catalyst is the "bad guy", and even then it's simply an alien being that has no obligation to follow human morality. It's all an unfortunate cosmic accident.

The series often implies that the Reapers represent some sort of organic-synthetic hybrid. If the creation of Reapers somehow uploads the collective conciousness of the organics used to create them into the machine (possible, since there are virtual aliens within the lore), Destroy represents freedom for those organic minds that were stripped of free will, trapped within, and forced to take part in the genocide of their own peoples and countless others. Death for them would be a mercy.

Viewed in that light, sparing the Reapers  would be keeping those organic 'souls' locked into an abomination that has stripped them off free will and reduced them to virtual slavery.

CosmicGnosis wrote...

There is at least one better way of ending the cycle than blowing up the hated domain of life and wrecking the galactic infrastructure.

I hate the fact that BioWare completely botched the thematic consistency of Destroy. It used to be the choice that clearly freed the galaxy of all Reaper influence by destroying all Reaper technology, along with all synthetics. It seemed to be the "return to nature" ending. In its current state, it's now somewhat incoherent. You kill all synthetics and destroy the mass relays... but the relays can be rebuilt? What? Don't they have the "taint" of Reaper influence? Oh, and now the Shepard AI is going to impose his will upon the galaxy? Great. Or he could spread his "organic energy" around?

*Sigh*

As you note, the galactic infrastructure is no longer destroyed post-EC. It is merely damaged. The damage is worth ridding the galaxy of the Catalyst and the Reapers, for all time.

Only Destroy truly guarantees that the galaxy will be safe from the Reapers for all time.

Both Synthesis and Control end with a fully intact Reaper fleet, and some form of a Catalyst ruling over them. In Synthesis the original Catalyst that has destroyed countless civilizations is still in place, and in Control the original Catalyst is replaced by Catalyst 2.0, which mimics Shepard's personality.

Both require that the galaxy trust that either version of the Catalyst will not one day come to the conclusion that the galaxy must once again be wiped clean of sapient space faring organic life. That is a massive gamble, and not one I'd be willing to take.

One of the greatest benefits of Destroy is that it liberates the galaxy from a Synthetic overlord, and gives them an oppurtunity to determine their own fates, for good or ill.

This line sums up Destroy perfectly.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:56 .

[Norwood06]

Something I never understood:

Does Destroy kill all synthetics? Or all synthetics with Reaper code?

So if the geth hadn't uploaded the Reaper AI code into themselves, would they have survived?

[Han Shot First]

Norwood06 wrote...

Something I never understood:

Does Destroy kill all synthetics? Or all synthetics with Reaper code?

So if the geth hadn't uploaded the Reaper AI code into themselves, would they have survived?

Both.

Technically it just destroys all Synthetics with Reaper code, but unfortunately by the end of ME3 that includes all known Synthetics.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:57 .

[Steelcan]

Norwood06 wrote...

Something I never understood:

Does Destroy kill all synthetics? Or all synthetics with Reaper code?

So if the geth hadn't uploaded the Reaper AI code into themselves, would they have survived?

its unclear. I'm inclined to believe that it only targets reaper tech in the High EMS scenario.

[noobcannon]

frudi wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

frudi wrote...

Before I answer any OP's questions, I'd first like to see indisputable evidence of synthetics actually getting destroyed by the red wave of space magic. At least one example? Surely we see at least one synthetic getting destroyed, don't we? Oh...

EDI's name on the memorial wall. Rannoch either populated solely by the Quarians, or a barren, decaying wasteland in the EC slides. They're dead in Destroy.

The speculation is strong in this one.

You won't have a problem showing and explaining to me just where and how EDI died then? I can tell you my own explanation, and it doesn't involve the red wave destroying her.
And Rannoch? All we see is a single shot of a city that happens to have no Geth in the frame. Or alternatively it's a barren wasteland because, with Creators gone, the Geth have no more interest in maintaining their legacy. How very conclusive

So... still waiting for that evidence that a single synthetic is destroyed by the red wave.

im with you. theres something about slideshows that im not buying but maybe that's just because i want there to be more. feels like you're only seeing what the reapers want you to see.

[Wayning_Star]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

It's amazing that I don't share the mainstream sentiment of "killing Reapers = good". It's not in me. It's just not. Given what we know about the Catalyst, the Reapers are clearly innocent. No organic species that was forcibly uploaded into a Reaper would willingly do the same to other species. The Catalyst is the "bad guy", and even then it's simply an alien being that has no obligation to follow human morality. It's all an unfortunate cosmic accident.

There is at least one better way of ending the cycle than blowing up the hated domain of life and wrecking the galactic infrastructure.

I hate the fact that BioWare completely botched the thematic consistency of Destroy. It used to be the choice that clearly freed the galaxy of all Reaper influence by destroying all Reaper technology, along with all synthetics. It seemed to be the "return to nature" ending. In its current state, it's now somewhat incoherent. You kill all synthetics and destroy the mass relays... but the relays can be rebuilt? What? Don't they have the "taint" of Reaper influence? Oh, and now the Shepard AI is going to impose his will upon the galaxy? Great. Or he could spread his "organic energy" around?

*Sigh*

I've always thought of it as a trade off to gain peace IN the MEU. The lore seeeeeeeems to point at a concensus, but the 'energy' is spend in the story to promote fear and distrust of the reapers, forces conflict and promotes destroy, until the last few feet in the end game(s). Worrisome, that..

I only 'think' that synthesis were the intended canon, as it fits the profile of Sheps 'urge' for 'honor'n such. Eventhough destroy is the military response in 'suspension'.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 14 janvier 2013 - 10:18 .