238 réponses à ce sujet

[Yakko77]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Synthesis suggests that people can't get along unless they are similar progress wise.

Explain to me how that isn't Fascist?

I can use sensitive words too.

I often refer to the Synthesis ending as "Eugenics".  It's a stretch of sorts but is basically applicable I think.

Is falling down the stairs as a kid eugenics if you learn that falling is an important thing to know about?

it's an overstatement with little regards to the meaning and purpose of 'eugenics'. It's like calling 'planned parenthood' eugenics.

(I doubt the writers conceptualize it that way, they'd of not produced it for obvious reasons, in any event?)

All I'm going to say is that I find it ironic that you referenced PP with my Eugenics comparison considering the views the Founder of that organization on the topic.

I used the term Eugenics losely in regards to that Sythesis involves genetically modifying the population of the galaxy in an unnatural and forced manner.  It may be twisted but I find wiping out one race in the Destroy Ending preferable to genetically manipulating the galaxy against their will.

[Shaleist]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

If you disagree with my interpretation, please explain.

Destroy is the 'Kill reapers' ending.  The Geth death was tacked on and made no sense. Contrivance may be defeated by being mocked and/or ignored. Thus it isn't anti-synthetic because there is no reason AT ALL for it to kill the Geth other than the writers wanting to tack on a drawback.  If the crucible was designed just to target reapers... ... nevermind it's not even worth extrapolating on.  The only thing I can come up with is the Reaper Code that EDI and the Geth used to augment themselves was targeted somehow.  But that doesn't explain how all other AI's were allegedly wiped out. In short, I view the Geth death as just another bad case of writing.

[redbaron76]

Simple, Control is wrong simply due the fact that it excuses genocides completed by reapers and enslaves reapers. Secon Destroy ending is perfect because it was an option from get go. It is on;y way to guarantee that the cycle will not start again.

[Jorji Costava]

I wrote about this in another thread, but it seems highly relevant here, so hopefully the OP won't mind me engaging in the indulgence of quoting myself:

osbornep wrote...

If we're looking at things from the point of view of authorial intent, then I would venture to say that the destruction of synthetics in destroy is not about sacrifice; it is not an arbitrary price attached to the ending to make you feel bad (otherwise, they wouldn't go through so much trouble to make you not feel bad). It's the whole point of that ending. They actually wanted us to take the singularity hypothesis of the catalyst seriously; the point of the destruction of the Geth is that if we don't destroy synthetics now, who's going to prevent them from wiping out all organic life? Destroy is supposed to represent the blunt, impatient solution to the singularity.

EDIT: Fixed formatting.

Modifié par osbornep, 16 janvier 2013 - 06:10 .

[Galifreya]

They can be rebuilt. What is your point again?

[Sebby]

Wayning_Star wrote...

it's an overstatement with little regards to the meaning and purpose of 'eugenics'. It's like calling 'planned parenthood' eugenics.

Planned Parenthood's founder Margaret Sanger was a eugenics proponent.

[BleedingUranium]

Gallifreya wrote...

They can be rebuilt. What is your point again?

That's like we can just birth/hatch more organics.

[Biotic Sage]

clennon8 wrote...

Control and Synthesis are capitulations. Last minute religious conversions.

Destroy is a rejection of the Catalyst's doctrine. A vote for self-determinism.

Boom.  End thread.

[CosmicGnosis]

I'm starting to believe that every choice except Refuse is anti-synthetic.

Destroy - Kill synthetics.

Control - Not sure, but people like to argue that the Shepard AI, a synthetic, controlling the Reapers is somehow anti-synthetic.

Synthesis - Synthetics are not people unless they have emotions.

Looks like BioWare may have created an anti-synthetic game. Mass Effect 3 completely sabotages everything we learned about EDI, the geth, and the entire concept of synthetic life. And I hate that. I don't think it was intentional, but they really screwed up.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 17 janvier 2013 - 04:51 .

[Bill Casey]

Yeah...
The face value ending is racist as hell...
The Reapers are racist as hell...

[BleedingUranium]

You keep ignoring us. Destroy is not anti-synthetic because the fact that synthetics die is trival, in the sense that it could have been any other group/race/half the galaxy/etc.

The kid says that if you destroy the Reapers then the "chaos" will come back. Picking Destroy is rejecting that concept, and believing that we can co-exist in the long run.

[Biotic Sage]

BleedingUranium wrote...

You keep ignoring us. Destroy is not anti-synthetic because the fact that synthetics die is trival, in the sense that it could have been any other group/race/half the galaxy/etc.

The kid says that if you destroy the Reapers then the "chaos" will come back. Picking Destroy is rejecting that concept, and believing that we can co-exist in the long run.

The point you make here should really end this discussion.  But we both know that it won't, because people were making this point 8 months ago and there were plenty of people who refused to try to wrap their mind around it then too.

[CosmicGnosis]

Biotic Sage wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

You keep ignoring us. Destroy is not anti-synthetic because the fact that synthetics die is trival, in the sense that it could have been any other group/race/half the galaxy/etc.

The kid says that if you destroy the Reapers then the "chaos" will come back. Picking Destroy is rejecting that concept, and believing that we can co-exist in the long run.

The point you make here should really end this discussion.  But we both know that it won't, because people were making this point 8 months ago and there were plenty of people who refused to try to wrap their mind around it then too.

Yeah, because I'm such a moron, aren't I? Synthetics being the main target of Crucible's Destroy option couldn't possibly be anti-synthetic!

This is where I sympathize with Refusers. At least they recognize the loathsome thematic implications of Destroy. Although I would choose Destroy over Refuse, I wouldn't sugarcoat it. Destroy targets and kills synthetics. It doesn't target anything else. The deaths of organics in the lower Destroy variants are the result of an accident. When the Crucible is functioning as it should in High-EMS Destroy, synthetics are the only target.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:36 .

[BleedingUranium]

You're missing that that's not relevant. It's like arguing that Control is the right choice on the basis that the Citadel doesn't blow up. It's not relevant, it's not part of the core choice. More accurately, it's the same as arguing that Arrival is anti-Batarian.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:54 .

[HiddenInWar]

Modifié par HiddenInWar, 17 janvier 2013 - 06:40 .

[Eterna]

The justifications in this thread are making me laugh my ass off.

It's like watching serial killers come up with insane reasons and justifications for their murders.

[BleedingUranium]

Eterna5 wrote...

The justifications in this thread are making me laugh my ass off.

It's like watching serial killers come up with insane reasons and justifications for their murders.

So you think the events of Arrival were not justified?

[Eterna]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The justifications in this thread are making me laugh my ass off.

It's like watching serial killers come up with insane reasons and justifications for their murders.

So you think the events of Arrival were not justified?

No, but it had to be done.

No one forces you to kill the Geth.

[BleedingUranium]

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The justifications in this thread are making me laugh my ass off.

It's like watching serial killers come up with insane reasons and justifications for their murders.

So you think the events of Arrival were not justified?

No, but it had to be done.

No one forces you to kill the Geth.

And the alternatives are two Reaper options or giving up.

[InvincibleHero]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I don't choose Destroy for the following reasons:

- Kills synthetics; prevents synthetics from continuing their quest for personhood

- The galaxy is prejudiced against synthetic intelligences; choosing Destroy does nothing to challenge this prejudice

- It's clearly the pro-organic choice; Shepard's synthetic aspect is sacrificed so that his organic aspect can survive (the opposite of Control)

- Depending on EMS, it either destroys or damages technology; even if technology is merely damaged, there is a cleaner way to end the cycle (Control)

- Throws away the knowledge contained within the Reapers; in my opinion, conquering the Lovecraftian entities means understanding them, not killing them and treating them as mysterious, unknowable monsters

- One of the leaked scripts had a more consistent version of Destroy; the mass relays were destroyed only in that specific ending (this is relevant because it provides insight into the logic of the Destroy choice)


If you disagree with my interpretation, please explain.

1. Synthetics will never be a person they only simulate/emulate life.

2. Prove prejudice exists inherently or is it just because of self-defense? Geth were not attacked behind the veil in their 300 year isolation and if the reapers were non-hostile there would be little clamor to destroy them just because they are synthetics.

3. Not pro-organic but satisfying the catalysts main goal. if he is Ok with it as a syth then where is you complaint grounded?

4. Shepard would not know future outcomes of any action to be taken. Irrelevant.

5. A necessary thing because they would extinguish all the beings in the ME universe and all their potential if not stopped. They were not going to cure cancer for the human race so why bemoan it?

6. So what? Thiscritique is the game as it stands. Irrelevant.

[Eterna]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The justifications in this thread are making me laugh my ass off.

It's like watching serial killers come up with insane reasons and justifications for their murders.

So you think the events of Arrival were not justified?

No, but it had to be done.

No one forces you to kill the Geth.

And the alternatives are two Reaper options or giving up.

Turning the reapers into slaves doesnlt feel like somehing they'd want. 

[BleedingUranium]

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The justifications in this thread are making me laugh my ass off.

It's like watching serial killers come up with insane reasons and justifications for their murders.

So you think the events of Arrival were not justified?

No, but it had to be done.

No one forces you to kill the Geth.

And the alternatives are two Reaper options or giving up.

Turning the reapers into slaves doesnlt feel like somehing they'd want.

But using their technology is, and always had been, bad.

[BleedingUranium]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Synthetics will never be a person they only simulate/emulate life.

Not this crap again. <_<

[Eterna]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The justifications in this thread are making me laugh my ass off.

It's like watching serial killers come up with insane reasons and justifications for their murders.

So you think the events of Arrival were not justified?

No, but it had to be done.

No one forces you to kill the Geth.

And the alternatives are two Reaper options or giving up.

Turning the reapers into slaves doesnlt feel like somehing they'd want.

But using their technology is, and always had been, bad.

No. We used the Reaper IFF to travel through the Omega 4 Relay. 

[BleedingUranium]

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The justifications in this thread are making me laugh my ass off.

It's like watching serial killers come up with insane reasons and justifications for their murders.

So you think the events of Arrival were not justified?

No, but it had to be done.

No one forces you to kill the Geth.

And the alternatives are two Reaper options or giving up.

Turning the reapers into slaves doesnlt feel like somehing they'd want.

But using their technology is, and always had been, bad.

No. We used the Reaper IFF to travel through the Omega 4 Relay.

And bad things happened as a result, though good did come of it as well. Still, if we made a list of all the times using Reapers tech was good vs all the times it was bad, that would be the only good one and the other side of the list would be very long. The odds are not in your favour.