587 réponses à ce sujet

[JamesFaith]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I can make decisions in Black Ops 2. Is that an Rpg? And i'm pretty sure the decision making was gutted like a fish in ME3. Same goes for how linear the story was. Given how much ME3 regressed from the franchises RPG elements, ME3 was more of a TPS than an RPG.

There are shooters with RPG elements like Black Ops 2.
There are strategies with RPG elements like Warcraft or Original War.
And there are also RPGs with action elements (ME3) and RPGs with strategic elements (Neverwinter Nights 2).
Deciding is core of game, in our case RPG.

There are also RPGs with less decisions then ME3 - Neverwinter nights 1.
And there are also RPGs same or more linear then ME3 - Icewind dale.
Nor linearity or number of decisions are absolutely deciding for marking videogame as RPG.

In fact this reminds me discusions after releasing of Deus Ex 1. I read many posts and opinions that game is too similar to shooters and that is no "true" RPG. Yet now Deus Ex series is considered nearly clasical RPG. It's just subjectivity of opinions...

[Dragoonlordz]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I can make decisions in Black Ops 2. Is that an Rpg? And i'm pretty sure the decision making was gutted like a fish in ME3. Same goes for how linear the story was. Given how much ME3 regressed from the franchises RPG elements, ME3 was more of a TPS than an RPG.

A first person shooter with couple RPG element is still a first person shooter with RPG elements just like a first person shooter with one million RPG elements is still a first person shooter with RPG elements. There simply is no "RPG" as a genre to me. Therefore ME3, BG or BOp's will never be an "RPG" in which case you cannot be more or less of an RPG because RPG as a genre does not exist as far as I am concerned these days. You can only have more or less RPG elements.

ME3 is no less an RPG than ME2, BOps is no more an RPG than ME3. They just have variation on quantity of elements to which you can filter between which elements you want in a game and which you do not. The quality of those elements is a separate issue and I don't think can use quality to define whether or not something is or is not an RPG in the first place (imho). It either has something or it does not, the quality of it when present still means it is present and exists within the game.

[Faust1979]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

Did anyone play ME3 through action mode as be interesting to see if they felt they role-played or felt like it was sci-fi gears....

If having 1 hub, not allowing to customise your squad, no boss's, linear gameplay are the future of bioware's so called RPG's then i think i'll give them a miss from now on......

I played on Narrative there were a lot of conversations I got to choose how I responded there was a lot of auto dialog and I got to make choices that impacted the universe

[Faust1979]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I can make decisions in Black Ops 2. Is that an Rpg? And i'm pretty sure the decision making was gutted like a fish in ME3. Same goes for how linear the story was. Given how much ME3 regressed from the franchises RPG elements, ME3 was more of a TPS than an RPG.

A first person shooter with couple RPG element is still a first person shooter with RPG elements just like a first person shooter with one million RPG elements is still a first person shooter with RPG elements. There simply is no "RPG" as a genre to me. Therefore ME3, BG or BOp's will never be an "RPG" in which case you cannot be more or less of an RPG because RPG as a genre does not exist as far as I am concerned these days. You can only have more or less RPG elements.

ME3 is no less an RPG than ME2, BOps is no more an RPG than ME3. They just have variation on quantity of elements to which you can filter between which elements you want in a game and which you do not. The quality of those elements is a separate issue and I don't think can use quality to define whether or not something is or is not an RPG in the first place (imho). It either has something or it does not, the quality of it when present still means it is present and exists within the game.

ME3 is as much an RPG as Baldur's Gate was. What was the gameplay of Baldur's Gate 2? talking to people, choosing your response, upgrading your equipment and stats, going through dungeons and killing mobs of stuff. The only difference is Baldur's Gate is from an over head position and less cinematics

[Ryoten]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...


You know what's bad for gaming? Me.  Seriously i am awfull.  I'm a cancer on these boards and on gaming in general because i love simple and thinking less.

[ziloe]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I have worked on every game we've made since the end of Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhaal. EVERY time we make a game, someone complains it isn't as "RPG" as the one previously. NwN wasn't BG, KotOR wasn't NwN, Jade wasn't KotOR, ME wasn't Jade, etc.

RPG is not static, RPG changes and evolves. Fallout 3 is not the same game as Fallout. Dragon Age: Origins is not the same game as Baldur's Gate. There is no hard, set rule as to what an RPG must be (beyond letting you play a role and it being a game, I suppose) or contain. That "YOU" (whoever you is) enjoys XYZ features and "THEY" liek ABC features does not mean that a game that does or does not include those features is any more or less an RPG. Yes, it absolutely may be less of an RPG in the mind of someone who wants ABC features, but gets XYZ features, but that does not change the inherant RPGness of the game.

Now we're arguing about "art" (as a methapor, stick with me here). Is the Mona Lisa art? Sure, it's awesome, historic, beautiful, etc. Is Warhol's Soup art? No! It's simple, childish, ugly, etc. This is the mind of the person perceiving it. They are both art, just different art. BG2 is an RPG, so is ME3. They are different, but they are also the same.

To be fair, Dragon Age Origins was a great formula.

[xsdob]

Can't we all just get along?

[Jadebaby]

Ryoten wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...


You know what's bad for gaming? Me.  Seriously i am awfull.  I'm a cancer on these boards and on gaming in general because i love simple and thinking less.

At least you both know you'll fit in with EA's new model for BioWare.

[archangel1996]

JamesFaith wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I can make decisions in Black Ops 2. Is that an Rpg? And i'm pretty sure the decision making was gutted like a fish in ME3. Same goes for how linear the story was. Given how much ME3 regressed from the franchises RPG elements, ME3 was more of a TPS than an RPG.

There are shooters with RPG elements like Black Ops 2.
There are strategies with RPG elements like Warcraft or Original War.
And there are also RPGs with action elements (ME3) and RPGs with strategic elements (Neverwinter Nights 2).
Deciding is core of game, in our case RPG.

There are also RPGs with less decisions then ME3 - Neverwinter nights 1.
And there are also RPGs same or more linear then ME3 - Icewind dale.
Nor linearity or number of decisions are absolutely deciding for marking videogame as RPG.

In fact this reminds me discusions after releasing of Deus Ex 1. I read many posts and opinions that game is too similar to shooters and that is no "true" RPG. Yet now Deus Ex series is considered nearly clasical RPG. It's just subjectivity of opinions...

I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto
I played ME1-2 before Xmas mostly for the hopefully IT/ending DLC, i even wanted to buy Leviathan/Omega but when i started ME3......bleah...the difference is really really remarkable after playing the first two of the saga, in fact i left at Mars (this the 20 December and i am still on Mars ) and i din't buy the DLC as i tought i would
Again, ME3 is a RPG, but ME3 is a spit in the face of games like DA:O, The Witcher and hell even ME1-2, mostly because in those last two i hade the ope that choices like the Rachni or the base or Anderson/Udina or the Council wuold have mattered

Modifié par archangel1996, 14 janvier 2013 - 11:57 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

its ok .. but its monday and i worked overtime .. i am not able to start a real debate.

immersion is really important in an rpg. it is also important in other games but for a rpg, it is essential. if i am forced out of character because the story/drama demand it, i cant play my role anymore. i get "kicked out".

i know, that vrpgs can not match a pnp with a dungeonmaster and that the story will always proceed in certain directions but to me, the interaction with the environment and its reactions on my avatar are the most important aspects of a rpg. stats, loot, perks/skills ... they are nice and very usefull tools to interact with the environment - but the alone dont make a game a rpg.

I considered thinking along the lines of immersion as an RPG element but it alone does not turn something from non-RPG to RPG in that sense it is neither a game mechanic or feature of a game. So I must resign myself to considering your definition to be that of the first method of definition in which RPG is merely playing a role and immersion being just a consequence of other elements.

[xsdob]

archangel1996 wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I can make decisions in Black Ops 2. Is that an Rpg? And i'm pretty sure the decision making was gutted like a fish in ME3. Same goes for how linear the story was. Given how much ME3 regressed from the franchises RPG elements, ME3 was more of a TPS than an RPG.

There are shooters with RPG elements like Black Ops 2.
There are strategies with RPG elements like Warcraft or Original War.
And there are also RPGs with action elements (ME3) and RPGs with strategic elements (Neverwinter Nights 2).
Deciding is core of game, in our case RPG.

There are also RPGs with less decisions then ME3 - Neverwinter nights 1.
And there are also RPGs same or more linear then ME3 - Icewind dale.
Nor linearity or number of decisions are absolutely deciding for marking videogame as RPG.

In fact this reminds me discusions after releasing of Deus Ex 1. I read many posts and opinions that game is too similar to shooters and that is no "true" RPG. Yet now Deus Ex series is considered nearly clasical RPG. It's just subjectivity of opinions...

I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto
I played ME1-2 before Xmas mostly for the hopefully IT/ending DLC, i even wanted to buy Leviathan/Omega but when i started ME3......bleah...the difference is really really remarkable after playing the first two of the saga, in fact i left at Mars (this the 20 December and i am still on Mars ) and i din't buy the DLC as i tought i would
Again, ME3 is a RPG, but ME3 is a spit in the face of games like DA:O, The Witcher and hell even ME1-2, mostly because in those last two i hade the ope that choices like the Rachni or the base or Anderson/Udina or the Council wuold have mattered

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

[Morty Smith]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Now we're arguing about "art" (as a methapor, stick with me here). Is the Mona Lisa art? Sure, it's awesome, historic, beautiful, etc. Is Warhol's Soup art? No! It's simple, childish, ugly, etc. This is the mind of the person perceiving it. They are both art, just different art. BG2 is an RPG, so is ME3. They are different, but they are also the same.

The methaphor is strikingly accurate.

It does hardly even matter now how much effort and complexity you put in it, you can call everything art/RPG.

[archangel1996]

xsdob wrote...

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

In Earth alone should have been at least 10 dilaogues choices, there are 3-4

[AlanC9]

xsdob wrote...

Can't we all just get along?

This is us getting along.

[JamesFaith]

archangel1996 wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

And where did you got this exaggerated number? I doubt that you count it, so you just wrote two numbers based purely on your subjective feelings. And  then you based your analysis about RPG aspects of ME3 on this purely subjective aspect - which make it subjective opinion, not fact.  

[Abraham_uk]

AlanC9 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Can't we all just get along?

This is us getting along.

You clearly haven't seen us fighting.
Not a pretty sight.

Almost always ends in a lockdown from the moderators.
Let's just leave it at that.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:07 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Faust1979 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I can make decisions in Black Ops 2. Is that an Rpg? And i'm pretty sure the decision making was gutted like a fish in ME3. Same goes for how linear the story was. Given how much ME3 regressed from the franchises RPG elements, ME3 was more of a TPS than an RPG.

A first person shooter with couple RPG element is still a first person shooter with RPG elements just like a first person shooter with one million RPG elements is still a first person shooter with RPG elements. There simply is no "RPG" as a genre to me. Therefore ME3, BG or BOp's will never be an "RPG" in which case you cannot be more or less of an RPG because RPG as a genre does not exist as far as I am concerned these days. You can only have more or less RPG elements.

ME3 is no less an RPG than ME2, BOps is no more an RPG than ME3. They just have variation on quantity of elements to which you can filter between which elements you want in a game and which you do not. The quality of those elements is a separate issue and I don't think can use quality to define whether or not something is or is not an RPG in the first place (imho). It either has something or it does not, the quality of it when present still means it is present and exists within the game.

ME3 is as much an RPG as Baldur's Gate was. What was the gameplay of Baldur's Gate 2? talking to people, choosing your response, upgrading your equipment and stats, going through dungeons and killing mobs of stuff. The only difference is Baldur's Gate is from an over head position and less cinematics

I actually agree with the logic behind that in the sense of if a game has the same quanitity of RPG elements as another then it is as much an RPG as the other game but neither are or will ever be pure RPG's because I do not consider RPG to be a genre. The quality of those elements to me do not get used to define what is or is not a genre or subset of genre format just whether or not such function, feature or mechanic is present. My definition of RPG is there is no such thing as an "RPG" merely RPG elements attached as a subsection of other genres which I can use those elements to filter through the genres to find the games with elements I enjoy.. What is an RPG? No such things exists by my definition, just games with x amount of RPG elements.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:10 .

[archangel1996]

JamesFaith wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

And where did you got this exaggerated number? I doubt that you count it, so you just wrote two numbers based purely on your subjective feelings. And  then you based your analysis about RPG aspects of ME3 on this purely subjective aspect - which make it subjective opinion, not fact.  

Yeah, i made it worng, it's more like 50%-50%, good enough counting that should be 100% and maybe some option that doesn't make the Renegade a big fat sick jerk

[rapscallioness]

AlanC9 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Can't we all just get along?

This is us getting along.

^ Lol. it sure is.

I just wanna make a quick statement. I'm not gonna tarry.

Really, I'm thinking it's time to stop saying that you want more "RPG" elements. Simply because the idea of RPG is just too varying. The definition of it open to too much interpretation which ultimately leads to nothing.

I think at this point when trying to get your hopes and suggestions across to the game company, it will have to be more specific.

Like, "I would like to see more/less of feature ABC."  Otherwise the discussion gets into marsh land. And good points being made get swallowed up in a discussion abt a defintion.

[XXIceColdXX]

I like the improved combat, quite enjoy it. But I'd happily sacrrifice it, if it meant less plot holes, a sharper story, and a satisfying ending.

[archangel1996]

Good God, it seams like RPG is a mistery in games
In ME3 RPG should have been full controll on Shepard, should have been reward for what i did, i killed the Rachni? I get one mission, i didn't? Another, i choose Anderson? i have him in the Council, maybe directing things on Earth, but NO i have to read a comic to know why he gave up, maybe good romances with the ME2 characters? The possibility to choose who take in the squad maybe, but nope too difficult, Collector base? Working for Cerberus?
We all know what a true RPG, someoe doesn't want to say it because ME3 is far from that

[Dragoonlordz]

archangel1996 wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

You can't expect people to take seriously your opinion of the game when your merely at Mars within the game itself. It to me personally is not much different to reading the first page of a book and saying the rest of it is lame. I would suggest attempting to play through it all (you may even end up liking it the dialogue system despite first impressions). You would then be better informed and have a more valid interpretation of the game.

If I read first page of a book and turned up at a book club to discuss the book I would be thrown out probably or told to go sit in a corner and finish reading before take part in discussing it's content with rest of the group who bothered to put in the time and effort to read it all before forming an opinion on it's content ready to discuss.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:29 .

[rapscallioness]

Ah, I forgot to say what I would like to see:

1) I would like to be able to equip and upgrade my squaddies armor.
2) I'd like far less auto dialogue--However--I'd like the kinda of dialogue option that is truly unique from each other. I'd like that dialogue choice to have a --mini impact. Like what you say, or how you say it, affects wht NPC's think/feel abt you.

And perhaps that would play a role in NPC actions down the line.

3) I'd like to see interesting implementation of the Choice/Consequence concept. I love that idea. I'd like what the player does and chooses to have a real impact of the resulting story.

Even if it has to be a stand alone game. If that would make it easier.

Cheers!

[Faust1979]

archangel1996 wrote...

Good God, it seams like RPG is a mistery in games
In ME3 RPG should have been full controll on Shepard, should have been reward for what i did, i killed the Rachni? I get one mission, i didn't? Another, i choose Anderson? i have him in the Council, maybe directing things on Earth, but NO i have to read a comic to know why he gave up, maybe good romances with the ME2 characters? The possibility to choose who take in the squad maybe, but nope too difficult, Collector base? Working for Cerberus?
We all know what a true RPG, someoe doesn't want to say it because ME3 is far from that

sorry but I don't agree with that and I believe ME3 is just as much an RPG as the first one, so stop with the whole dramatic we all know routine. Not everyone will agree with you not everyone will share your opinions

[Dean_the_Young]

AlanC9 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Can't we all just get along?

This is us getting along.

I had a vision of a allegory of Bioware advertising and Player Expections.


Players: "Gee wiz, I thought it had some problems and needed some work, but I actually enjoyed the game. I wish there was some place I could have a nice discussion about the endings and the aftermath of the game."

Bioware: "Come to BSN, where everyone talks about the endings and gets along."

Players: "Okay! Let's join!"

A few unpleasant ending threads later...

Players: "OMG Bioware! Everyone hated the endings and were fighting eahother! You lied to me!"

Bioware: "Who claimed they got along well?"