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The decline of the Bioware RPG


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#276
Femlob

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xsdob wrote...

Slowly, I am beginning to realize that I find rpg's annoying and unnecessarily bogged down and tedious, and that streamlined games are what I prefer playing.

Oh well, as long as there is a likeable character and a narrative to follow, and the gameplay is playable without feeling like a exercise in what not to do in gameplay mechanics, I think I'll be just fine for games.

C'est la vie I suppose, I feel sorry for all the "rpg fans" out there who now only have a single polish game developer to rely on for their games.


Sounds like you're EA's target audience, then.

For me, life was better when games were created by a small group of dedicated people for a slightly larger group of people who were ostracized by society for daring to like something as nerdy as "vidya gaemz".

The bottom line is always the same: the drooling, excrement-hurling masses, entirely too incompetent to properly safeguard their bulging wallets, run absolutely everything right into the f*cking ground. Man, I hate people.

#277
Jadebaby

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Once again, I agree with your post. But censoring your words? You've gone soft Femlob ; )

#278
JamesFaith

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archangel1996 wrote...

Good God, it seams like RPG is a mistery in games
In ME3 RPG should have been full controll on Shepard, should have been reward for what i did, i killed the Rachni? I get one mission, i didn't? Another, i choose Anderson? i have him in the Council, maybe directing things on Earth, but NO i have to read a comic to know why he gave up, maybe good romances with the ME2 characters? The possibility to choose who take in the squad maybe, but nope too difficult, Collector base? Working for Cerberus?
We all know what a true RPG, someoe doesn't want to say it because ME3 is far from that


You didn't got Anderson in Council, you got Rachni, where decisions from ME1 had smaller effect then you expected BUT you got Rannoch and Tuchanka affected by previous choices + smaller things like Kelly or Conrad. So this RPG feature was presented in ME3, just not in same extension, form and with same choices you and many people expected expected.

Romances aren't main RPG feature, in fact they were just BW experiment which became they trademark.

About that squad... you mean that they didn't give you option to recruit people from ME2? Well, nothing new here, BG2 made it too with many characters, which turned to NPCs, and still BG2 is considered great RPG.

And about joining Cerberus... except BG2 Bioware never used true faction system, so why should they used it now and why is its absence suddenly wrong?

#279
spirosz

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Question, when did "choices" and "consequences" define RPG as a genre?

#280
Jadebaby

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spirosz wrote...

Question, when did "choices" and "consequences" define RPG as a genre?


They didn't, and even if they ever did, COD Black Ops II broke that illusion.

#281
chemiclord

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This would be a great discussion if there was anything remotely resembling a consensus as to what an "RPG" is supposed to be. It's become such a generic term in video games that it's lost all meaning.

Modifié par chemiclord, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:52 .


#282
spirosz

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JadeShepard wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Question, when did "choices" and "consequences" define RPG as a genre?


They didn't, and even if they ever did, COD Black Ops II broke that illusion.


A lot of people seem to think it does define RPGs.  "Oh no, my choices didn't matter = not RPG" is making my head hurt, haha. 

#283
Guest_Fandango_*

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chemiclord wrote...

This would be a great discussion if there was anything remotely resembling a consensus as to what an "RPG" is supposed to be. It's become such a generic term in video games that it's lost all meaning.


QFT. Same goes for 'art'.

#284
Dragoonlordz

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spirosz wrote...

Question, when did "choices" and "consequences" define RPG as a genre?


It never has. Two reason first being there's no such thing as an RPG genre (imho). Second being it's just one element aka gameplay mechanic or feature that counts as one additional RPG element attached to games of other genre types. It enhances the roleplaying just as every RPG element has the (potential) to do. ME1 to 3 have all been third person shooters with some RPG elements of which this has not changed. The desired quanitity of those elements is personal preference but does not change it's format of being a third person shooter with RPG elements and the quality is subjective which has no baring on if it is or is not an RPG in first place. It either has that RPG element or it does not.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:56 .


#285
Dean_the_Young

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chemiclord wrote...

This would be a great discussion if there was anything remotely resembling a consensus as to what an "RPG" is supposed to be. It's become such a generic term in video games that it's lost all meaning.

Then again, what I determing to be a RolePlaying Game is something that no computer can even come close to properly emulating.  No matter what you do in a computer game, at the end of the day you're really just reading from a script.  The game disc doesn't give one tenth of one **** about the details of the backstory you've fashioned.  It has no earthly idea what your headcanon is, nor does it have any way to find out.

That's not roleplaying.  Therefore, as far as I'm concerned RPG video games do not exist.

I think we can all agree with the following statement.

'RPGs are games of suitable complexity that I like.'

#286
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Can't we all just get along?


This is us getting along.


We are struggling together! 

#287
chemiclord

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Then again, what I determine to be a RolePlaying Game is something that no computer can even come close to properly emulating. No matter what you do in a computer game, at the end of the day you're really just reading from a script. The game disc doesn't give one tenth of one **** about the details of the backstory you've fashioned. It has no earthly idea what your headcanon is, nor does it have any way to find out. It can't alter the game content as you get different ideas as how your character should proceed. What it has is what you get, no exceptions.

That's not roleplaying. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned RPG video games do not exist. Can't have a decline from something that never existed in the first place.

#288
EagleScoutDJB

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spirosz wrote...

Question, when did "choices" and "consequences" define RPG as a genre?

I don't think choices and consequences ever defined RPGs as a whole, but they have defined Bioware RPGs for a long time.

#289
xsdob

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@femlob, that last part better not be directed at me. >:{

Modifié par xsdob, 15 janvier 2013 - 01:00 .


#290
Bruenin

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isn't there a whole list of different terms for different kinds of RPG's? Just saying RPG seems a bit vague...

Action RPG, Hack and Slash, Rougelike, CRPG, games with level up and upgrade systems that let you play certain roles out but each with different feels and such.

Most games are Action RPG now and it seems a lot of people miss CRPG but I don't see it making too much of a comeback unless it's from an indie developer or something like that. Rougelikes are coming back (Binding of Issac and a few others got really popular) and with games like Torchlight so are Hack and Slash types.

#291
Dean_the_Young

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JadeShepard wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Question, when did "choices" and "consequences" define RPG as a genre?


They didn't, and even if they ever did, COD Black Ops II broke that illusion.

I'm not sure I'd say that: after all, why can't COD Black Ops II also be called an RPG? Perhaps not a good one, but- well, who said it was a good one?


RPG definitions vary from person to person, but there are those who think it derives from certain gameplay mechanics (typically revolving around inventory, character customization, character progression with level-up customization, and dice-roll mechanics derived from D&D), and there are those who think it learns more towards story progression mechanics (choosing character dialogue, or story choices that shape the narrative and progression.

Personally, I fall far more into the second camp. My first experiences with D&D never involved much in the way of combat, and I'm from a family with a history of drama, and by drama I mean plays and theatre. The idea of role-playing to me has never been bound to the mechanics of how: I've seen actors with elaborate costumes, plays with virtually no costumes or set, finger puppets, audio dramas, hand puppets, finger puppets... all these different mediums can tell the same story but in different ways, and with different personalities. To me, that's the epitome of roleplaying: item management is a playstyle that is associated due to history, but there's nothing particularly necessary about loot or even XP to playing your role.

At the inverse, rule complexity (once the trademark of the RPG genre) has long since ceased to be a monopoly of them alone. Levels and stats and item customization blossomed like wildfire even across games with no player input in the story narrative: once it used to be thought of as just the JRPG genre, but now even Call of Duty multiplayer can support a character progression system to unlock better abilities and capabilities. These are games I certainly wouldn't consider an RPG due to their lack of story influence, but they can certainly boast the gameplay mechanics. Call it the strike two against game mechanics being a necessity of RPGs for me.


It's not a particularly impressive standard, but in my view perhaps one of the 'purest' examples of the RPG genre, role-playing at its most distilled, is the Japanese dating sim. These games begin by having the character adopt a role as a tabula rose character in a new setting. That might be something familiar (high-school dating sims), more fantastical/sci-fi, whatever, but the character is introduced to a cast to ease them into the environment of the world and then given a narrative push to get the ball rolling. Things roll from there, as who you talk to and how you talk to them (in essence, what sort of role you choose to takes) ends up leading to differing and increasingly mutually exclusive paths. By the end of the game, you end up with your chosen one because of the choices you made, and the differences in relationships and interaction are significant. And, of course, there's the whole deal about emotional investment with fiction characters. Totally unfamiliar to anyone on BSN.

(And if that wasn't one of the geekiest admissions of understanding nerd culture, I don't know what is. Kind of like Twilight: you don't even have to have read it to understand about it.)

#292
Dean_the_Young

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Are we including Big Decisions under dialogue? Because I'd imagine that Big Decisions would be a big RPG element regardless.

And what about dem levels? And skill points? And mutually exclusive power-growth options?

Or carry-over consequences? Or in-game consequences?

Third-path mechanics to opening up new decisions? Do those count?

#293
Wayning_Star

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Can't we all just get along?


This is us getting along.

I had a vision of a allegory of Bioware advertising and Player Expections.


Players: "Gee wiz, I thought it had some problems and needed some work, but I actually enjoyed the game. I wish there was some place I could have a nice discussion about the endings and the aftermath of the game."

Bioware: "Come to BSN, where everyone talks about the endings and gets along."

Players: "Okay! Let's join!"

A few unpleasant ending threads later...

Players: "OMG Bioware! Everyone hated the endings and were fighting eahother! You lied to me!"

Bioware: "Who claimed they got along well?"


Oh, it's not THAT bad, everyone agrees with me that synthesis is the canon ending. Not many like that but they know the truth now...

lol

really, the fans just want their ending to be  The One ...

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 15 janvier 2013 - 01:31 .


#294
ZeCollectorDestroya

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Someone With Mass wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

QFT x24, and you listed a problem I hated in ME2 and ME3, you can't choose Squadmate's armour.


Well, technically, you can. It's only in ME3 where they start to show any/small benefits.

I like my team to wear the same **** like real soldiers. It isn't a fashion show. How does Miranda's suit help against tungsten rounds?

#295
Leonardo the Magnificent

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Femlob wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Slowly, I am beginning to realize that I find rpg's annoying and unnecessarily bogged down and tedious, and that streamlined games are what I prefer playing.

Oh well, as long as there is a likeable character and a narrative to follow, and the gameplay is playable without feeling like a exercise in what not to do in gameplay mechanics, I think I'll be just fine for games.

C'est la vie I suppose, I feel sorry for all the "rpg fans" out there who now only have a single polish game developer to rely on for their games.


Sounds like you're EA's target audience, then.

For me, life was better when games were created by a small group of dedicated people for a slightly larger group of people who were ostracized by society for daring to like something as nerdy as "vidya gaemz".

The bottom line is always the same: the drooling, excrement-hurling masses, entirely too incompetent to properly safeguard their bulging wallets, run absolutely everything right into the f*cking ground. Man, I hate people.



Can you even see the ground from atop that horse of yours? Or is it so covered in the "filth of the masses" that there's no ground left to see?

#296
Ryoten

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JadeShepard wrote...

Ryoten wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...


You know what's bad for gaming? Me.  Seriously i am awfull.  I'm a cancer on these boards and on gaming in general because i love simple and thinking less.


At least you both know you'll fit in with EA's new model for BioWare.



I took what he said and re-wrote it.  Because that's what he wants.  I dont want that.

#297
FlyinElk212

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spirosz wrote...

JadeShepard wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Question, when did "choices" and "consequences" define RPG as a genre?


They didn't, and even if they ever did, COD Black Ops II broke that illusion.


A lot of people seem to think it does define RPGs.  "Oh no, my choices didn't matter = not RPG" is making my head hurt, haha. 

Not the point. When BIOWARE says that "choices" and "consequences" define THEIR RPGs, then don't follow through on that promise, then it's an issue.

#298
Jadebaby

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Ryoten wrote...

JadeShepard wrote...

Ryoten wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...


You know what's bad for gaming? Me.  Seriously i am awfull.  I'm a cancer on these boards and on gaming in general because i love simple and thinking less.


At least you both know you'll fit in with EA's new model for BioWare.



I took what he said and re-wrote it.  Because that's what he wants.  I dont want that.


Forgiveness please!?

I'm actually surprised by myself that I would think Brovikk would actually write something like that... Image IPB

#299
Dark_Caduceus

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Femlob wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Slowly, I am beginning to realize that I find rpg's annoying and unnecessarily bogged down and tedious, and that streamlined games are what I prefer playing.

Oh well, as long as there is a likeable character and a narrative to follow, and the gameplay is playable without feeling like a exercise in what not to do in gameplay mechanics, I think I'll be just fine for games.

C'est la vie I suppose, I feel sorry for all the "rpg fans" out there who now only have a single polish game developer to rely on for their games.


Sounds like you're EA's target audience, then.

For me, life was better when games were created by a small group of dedicated people for a slightly larger group of people who were ostracized by society for daring to like something as nerdy as "vidya gaemz".

The bottom line is always the same: the drooling, excrement-hurling masses, entirely too incompetent to properly safeguard their bulging wallets, run absolutely everything right into the f*cking ground. Man, I hate people.


Tons of people are still making RPGs, many of them better than ME2 and ME3.

#300
xsdob

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CD Projekt Red is making a cool looking sci-fi rpg in 3 or more years, should be very good.