587 réponses à ce sujet

[Obitim]

JamesFaith wrote...

Obitim wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Obitim wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...



Romances aren't main RPG feature, in fact they were just BW experiment which became they trademark.

But there were romances in BG2, KOTOR and DA:O...

You probably didn't read whole sentence, because I wrote that romances were Bioware experiment and became Bioware's trademark. And this experiment started with BG2 and continue in other Bioware games KOTOR and DA.

Romances are just optional feature used by BW and some other companies which copy it from them. Their popularity don't make them objectively critical feature.

You know what, I did read it but only took in half tyhe sentance (As you can see in my quote!)!  Apologies for that!

I agree with you in terms of the romances though, they're not the be all and end all for me, I like them occasionally as they add depth, but they;re not a reason to buy or not buy a game!

I didn't react on snipping of original post, I react on fact that I wrote about BW experiment and you seemingly counterarguments were all BW games.

Yeah, I know, my bad as I;d onyl read half your argument, making my counter argument pretty null!  

[Obitim]

Abraham_uk wrote...

It always annoys me when Mass Effect is described as a shooter.

A huge part of the combat is the power usage.
This is one of the elements that sets Mass Effect series from most shooters.




I do however agree, that the relation between actions and consequences needs to be a priority in future games though.

But there are plenty of shooters that have 'power usage' just dressed up as a skill, such as adrenaline rush, or seeing through walls, you can see this in Halo 4 with the different armour abilities

[abyss-reaver]

The problem is one word -> Evolution.
BW guys think that they evolve their games by simplifying gameplay, making things easier, add AWESOME stuff like cinematics and everything is okay.

I have no idea why has it started, they got this whole legacy, and they should know why so many ppl stick with them over these years. And yet...
1) after making great story arc in me1 they decided to make me2 only about gathering your squad... it was nice, yeah, but it should be a part of the game not a main purpose ><
2) simplyfing crucial elements - remember the one and only questbags in DA:O? I felt sb lost his mind... then i saw DA2's "oh hey u got my lost umbrella! thank u! here's sth for ya" and ofc autodialogues in me3 (which at some level are climatic and natural but in me3 highly overused)

-what is the main thing about rpgs? giving you a chance of PLAYING A ROLE.
why me1 was better rpg even if armors and weapons where very similar? it gave you, maybe illusionary, a choice of customization you own character - me2 failed at it.
You could be a brute and only chase saren, you could be talky guy - discovering problems, bigger and smaller, of the universe. ME3 force you to be a great macho. Sure you can "HEAR" some sidequest - but autodialogue rips of all immersion, personal contact.

ME2 and ME3 do better job with interaction with you squadmates, they give you more choices (i wished more! xD). But why they fail in the interaction with the rest?
Why BG2 was so cool? -it gave you world - not only main quest, underground cities, politics, intrigues -me1 with all its limitations had such feeling
Why Planescape is a legend? - you could solve most problems by simple talking.

Remember ME1 tons of text? wasn't it better to stop for a little moment and read about this dead body, structure... blah blah blah? There was no urge, you could say "meh" - but there was a choice.

sorry for being 'little' chaotic

[10K]

Obitim wrote...

And there are some cross over skills.

This right here is my point. There is not SOME cross over skills, the majority of the ME1 skills were cross over skills. There are eight total skills in ME1, now compare the Adept and Vangaurd classes. More than half the skills present for both clases they share. They share 5 of 8 skills.

Now compare the two in ME2. There are 6 base skills for both clases and they only share 2. Not only do they share less skills, they also have unique skills of their own that no other class have. I'm not saying ME2 is more of an RPG than ME1, I just think in the aspect of having class uniqueness, ME2 wins IMO.    

[Obitim]

mosesarose wrote...

Obitim wrote...

And there are some cross over skills.

This right here is my point. There is not SOME cross over skills, the majority of the ME1 skills were cross over skills. There are eight total skills in ME1, now compare the Adept and Vangaurd classes. More than half the skills present for both clases they share. They share 5 of 8 skills.

Now compare the two in ME2. There are 6 base skills for both clases and they only share 2. Not only do they share less skills, they also have unique skills of their own that no other class have. I'm not saying ME2 is more of an RPG than ME1, I just think in the aspect of having class uniqueness, ME2 wins IMO.    

Yeah, I see your point on that, perhaps in ME1 they would have ben better served by having more unique skills for each class, however, there was only 6 skills per class in ME 2, and the issue I had was that how can a soldier and an engineer wear the same type of armour? surely there should have been sone sort of skill tree for this (so that an engineer may have to dedicate more skills to wearing the heavier stuff) and also the restriction on weapons was a bit of a bind, why can't a vanguard use an assault rifle and shotgun?  in ME 1 (after completing the game) you could have these types of dream builds, but not in ME2, although ME 3 went some way towards improving this with the load out system (I assume you can loadup an adept with a sniper rifle?) And I think there should have been a skil tree reflecing these sort of decisions

[10K]

Obitim wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

Obitim wrote...

And there are some cross over skills.

This right here is my point. There is not SOME cross over skills, the majority of the ME1 skills were cross over skills. There are eight total skills in ME1, now compare the Adept and Vangaurd classes. More than half the skills present for both clases they share. They share 5 of 8 skills.

Now compare the two in ME2. There are 6 base skills for both clases and they only share 2. Not only do they share less skills, they also have unique skills of their own that no other class have. I'm not saying ME2 is more of an RPG than ME1, I just think in the aspect of having class uniqueness, ME2 wins IMO.    

Yeah, I see your point on that, perhaps in ME1 they would have ben better served by having more unique skills for each class, however, there was only 6 skills per class in ME 2, and the issue I had was that how can a soldier and an engineer wear the same type of armour? surely there should have been sone sort of skill tree for this (so that an engineer may have to dedicate more skills to wearing the heavier stuff) and also the restriction on weapons was a bit of a bind, why can't a vanguard use an assault rifle and shotgun?  in ME 1 (after completing the game) you could have these types of dream builds, but not in ME2, although ME 3 went some way towards improving this with the load out system (I assume you can loadup an adept with a sniper rifle?) And I think there should have been a skil tree reflecing these sort of decisions

 

On this we can agree on. I felt it was a bit silly as well that only the soldier class had access to the assualt rifle eventhough shepard was a trained space marine. The choice for using the assault rifle should have been there from the beginning, not just a reward for beating the game. But I can see what you're saying, customization of Shepard and his squad was no doubt better in ME1, and ME1 was the better RPG  

[Obitim]

Just saw in another post regarding something which had annoyed me, the change from weapons heating to thermal clips, how is this not a step back and showing that ME3 is becoming more of a shooter?

[Grubas]

I like to tweak my character, i like to stay in one place and explore it thoroughly, and i like to dig through a huge pile of ruble to find the items relevant to my character.

ME1 wins.
ME3 yaaawn...

BUT! Low and behold. I understand that there are gamers who are not into this kind of mechanics. They like being spoonfeed, having awesome button and being lead from one action to another without wasting time.

This kind of games are fun too. Infact :There are more then enough of them- I would argue this is the majority. 

But ME1 wasn't that kind of game. Please dear casuals, understand. ME franchise was an island of hope. Bioware was an island of hope. Many RPG-gamers still have a problem to get over it, that we lost what once was a saving throw for us.

I feel like after playing ME3 that i could aswell start the other games, like Gears of war, Call of Duty. 
If not for a game like The Witcher2 i would do it probably. ;P

You know that game that combines everything that was fun in ME1: Challenging gamemechanics, exploration, complex skilltrees and ontop decisons that matter, fully developed optional sidequests.

No more probing uranus for me. No more stupid point and shoot. Thats how i feel.

Modifié par Grubas, 15 janvier 2013 - 11:06 .

[Linkforlife]

I still remember a time when we could choose ALL of Shepard's dialogue options.

[Obitim]

Linkforlife wrote...

I still remember a time when we could choose ALL of Shepard's dialogue options.

Good times...good times

[AshenShug4r]

Broke my heart reading the OP. I miss those days dearly.

[Linkforlife]

Obitim wrote...

Linkforlife wrote...

I still remember a time when we could choose ALL of Shepard's dialogue options.

Good times...good times

Going to go dig ME1 out of it's grave so I can go play it again. Maybe mow down some Thresher Maws in the Mako for nostalgia's sake, or hell, maybe I will even drive around in circles on a random planet just because.

[MassEffect762]

Pretty much, anyone with half a brain can see the contrast.

ME1 was the game that made me feel like a kid again.

ME2 was the game that brought me back down to earth to remind me EAware was nothing more than lean manufacturing and empty words.

Having a pretty good idea of how EAware likes to produce games it's a wonder I still bother with them with SWTOR.

I guess I'm just that bored.

[archangel1996]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

You can't expect people to take seriously your opinion of the game when your merely at Mars within the game itself. It to me personally is not much different to reading the first page of a book and saying the rest of it is lame. I would suggest attempting to play through it all (you may even end up liking it the dialogue system despite first impressions). You would then be better informed and have a more valid interpretation of the game.

If I read first page of a book and turned up at a book club to discuss the book I would be thrown out probably or told to go sit in a corner and finish reading before take part in discussing it's content with rest of the group who bothered to put in the time and effort to read it all before forming an opinion on it's content ready to discuss.

It's good that i already beat the game two times, isn't it?
And i already said that my statement is wrong, but is better ignore suck things Anyway two posts after i said that it's more likely 50%-50% and this is enough for you? <_<
I am informed enoguh about the game to say this: I can't care less about the super badass customation of Weapons and Armors, what i do care about are choices and dialogues, maybe to you this is not RPG, but sure as hell this absolute lack of both in ME3 is neither the line in which  ME1 and ME2 have been made

Modifié par archangel1996, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:44 .

[simonrana]

xsdob wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

Though I'll admit that the intro is probably the worst auto-dialogue offender in the game (bad way to start really!)

Can anyone think of the best selectable dialogue mission we could use as a counter-example?

[archangel1996]

simonrana wrote...

xsdob wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

Though I'll admit that the intro is probably the worst auto-dialogue offender in the game (bad way to start really!)

Can anyone think of the best selectable dialogue mission we could use as a counter-example?

The meeting with the Council? After Thessia? The mission in the Geth network? There are plenty of examples, and this is not a good thing:?

Modifié par archangel1996, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:51 .

[tonnactus]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

i have to shake my head in disbelieve.

there are aktually people out there, who think that spending points on skills make a game a rpg.

rpgs are not about loot, talents or armor customisation - this is useful fluff. a rpg is about becoming part of a world, that reacts to you and you playing a role in the worlds advancement. it is about becoming a part of something bigger, by "slipping into the clothes" of your avatar and giving your avatar a certain personality.

it is about immersion.

Wrong. Its not. Some people still dont know the difference between laarping and rpg. The player chooses a role, a class and how he spends those points and what weapons/armor he can use define this class. This is a key element of rpgs.
The option and the limitations of a class.

[tonnactus]

mosesarose wrote...

I just have to disagree about when you mentioned ME1 having twice as many skills than ME2. This may be true, but ME2 made each class unique by having only those 6 skills. In ME1 every biotic class was basically the same, having the same exact powers.

Wrong. I cant remember Vanguards having Singularity by default, do you? Also, there were class specialisations like Bastion or Medic.

[Linkforlife]

tonnactus wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

i have to shake my head in disbelieve.

there are aktually people out there, who think that spending points on skills make a game a rpg.

rpgs are not about loot, talents or armor customisation - this is useful fluff. a rpg is about becoming part of a world, that reacts to you and you playing a role in the worlds advancement. it is about becoming a part of something bigger, by "slipping into the clothes" of your avatar and giving your avatar a certain personality.

it is about immersion.

Wrong. Its not. Some people still dont know the difference between laarping and rpg. The player chooses a role, a class and how he spends those points and what weapons/armor he can use define this class. This is a key element of rpgs.
The option and the limitations of a class.

I like this human! He understands!

[simonrana]

archangel1996 wrote...

simonrana wrote...

xsdob wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

Though I'll admit that the intro is probably the worst auto-dialogue offender in the game (bad way to start really!)

Can anyone think of the best selectable dialogue mission we could use as a counter-example?

The meeting with the Council? After Thessia? The mission in the Geth network? There are plenty of examples, and this is not a good thing:?

No I meant examples of in game moments where you get the most dialogue choice, so we can contrast it against the intro, which is in one of the most auto-dialogue-heavy parts of the game.

I forgot about the Geth server mission though - that thing must be about 95% auto-dialogue!

[Linkforlife]

simonrana wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

simonrana wrote...

xsdob wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

Though I'll admit that the intro is probably the worst auto-dialogue offender in the game (bad way to start really!)

Can anyone think of the best selectable dialogue mission we could use as a counter-example?

The meeting with the Council? After Thessia? The mission in the Geth network? There are plenty of examples, and this is not a good thing:?

No I meant examples of in game moments where you get the most dialogue choice, so we can contrast it against the intro, which is in one of the most auto-dialogue-heavy parts of the game.

I forgot about the Geth server mission though - that thing must be about 95% auto-dialogue!

If I had to pick a moment, I would have to say Liara's time capsule scene might fit into your criteria.

[simonrana]

Linkforlife wrote...

simonrana wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

simonrana wrote...

xsdob wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

Though I'll admit that the intro is probably the worst auto-dialogue offender in the game (bad way to start really!)

Can anyone think of the best selectable dialogue mission we could use as a counter-example?

The meeting with the Council? After Thessia? The mission in the Geth network? There are plenty of examples, and this is not a good thing:?

No I meant examples of in game moments where you get the most dialogue choice, so we can contrast it against the intro, which is in one of the most auto-dialogue-heavy parts of the game.

I forgot about the Geth server mission though - that thing must be about 95% auto-dialogue!

If I had to pick a moment, I would have to say Liara's time capsule scene might fit into your criteria.

Ah, good choice (and incidentally my favourite moment of the game!)

If I'm as generous as I was for the intro mission then the first three Shepard lines don't really count (they're just stuff like "come in", "what's that?"). That makes the ratio exactly 50/50 - there's 3 auto-dialogue lines and 3 you get to pick from the wheel.

Can anyone think of any part of the game with more, or is 50% the most we can get? 

[Jadebaby]

damn simonrana, my hat goes off to you.

That's a very sad statistic. And really making me not look forward to the 3rd.

(playing ME1 now on PC)