587 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

79% auto dialogue? That hurts me.

[Obitim]

That is a worrying statistic...definitely an increase from ME2 and ME1 and a huge increase from the likes of BG...

[Codename_Code]

To me, mass effect is more like a interactive novel, akin to the walking dead : the game. The action is a vehicle, and the RPG element is almost non existent.

[Ieldra]

Chris Priestly wrote...
I have worked on every game we've made since the end of Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhaal. EVERY time we make a game, someone complains it isn't as "RPG" as the one previously. NwN wasn't BG, KotOR wasn't NwN, Jade wasn't KotOR, ME wasn't Jade, etc.

RPG is not static, RPG changes and evolves. Fallout 3 is not the same game as Fallout. Dragon Age: Origins is not the same game as Baldur's Gate. There is no hard, set rule as to what an RPG must be (beyond letting you play a role and it being a game, I suppose) or contain. That "YOU" (whoever you is) enjoys XYZ features and "THEY" liek ABC features does not mean that a game that does or does not include those features is any more or less an RPG. Yes, it absolutely may be less of an RPG in the mind of someone who wants ABC features, but gets XYZ features, but that does not change the inherant RPGness of the game.

So, you appear to imply that there are no features a game can miss without impacting its status as an RPG? That would make the definition meaningless. In fact, you're "playing a role" in almost any action game. I'd say a core feature of an RPG is being able to influence, as a player, certain aspects of my character. It may be appearance, it may be technical aspects of character creation and development like skills, powers etc., it may be defining your character through actions and decisions you make in the game. The more control you have as a player over your character, what he can do, what he does and says in the situations the story presents him with insofar they are relevant for expressing who this person is, how he does and says those things and which decisions he makes, the more of an RPG you have.

In this, the importance of dialogue cannot be overstressed. It's your primary way of expressing yourself to the fictional world. For a roleplayer, there is nothing worse than a game which forces the protagonist to say things where the player feels "that's not my character". Yes, games can't have unlimited options so no game is going to be perfect in this, but ME3 has been a particularly bad offender in this area, though ME2 had its moments as well. DAO, on the other hand, was almost perfect. In fact, it was much better than the BG games in this because it almost universally presented more ways to express your character. 

So yes, I think limited dialogue options and more autodialogue are detrimental to a game's identity as an RPG, compared to other games which have more options and less autodialogue. 

[dreamgazer]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So yes, I think limited dialogue options and more autodialogue are detrimental to a game's identity as an RPG, compared to other games which have more options and less autodialogue. 

Agreed.  The key feature of a role-playing game is in the genre's title: playing a role. Limiting the versatility of dialogue and other situation choices further constricts someone's ability to mold into their desired role, and there is a point of diminishing returns that BioWare is approaching through their refinement.  

[Alex_Dur4and]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I have worked on every game we've made since the end of Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhaal. EVERY time we make a game, someone complains it isn't as "RPG" as the one previously. NwN wasn't BG, KotOR wasn't NwN, Jade wasn't KotOR, ME wasn't Jade, etc.

RPG is not static, RPG changes and evolves. Fallout 3 is not the same game as Fallout. Dragon Age: Origins is not the same game as Baldur's Gate. There is no hard, set rule as to what an RPG must be (beyond letting you play a role and it being a game, I suppose) or contain. That "YOU" (whoever you is) enjoys XYZ features and "THEY" liek ABC features does not mean that a game that does or does not include those features is any more or less an RPG. Yes, it absolutely may be less of an RPG in the mind of someone who wants ABC features, but gets XYZ features, but that does not change the inherant RPGness of the game.

Now we're arguing about "art" (as a methapor, stick with me here). Is the Mona Lisa art? Sure, it's awesome, historic, beautiful, etc. Is Warhol's Soup art? No! It's simple, childish, ugly, etc. This is the mind of the person perceiving it. They are both art, just different art. BG2 is an RPG, so is ME3. They are different, but they are also the same.

Good day Mr. Prestley,

In my humble opinion, the player has less and less of a say in the actions of their character. Having played most of Bioware games myself (I'm a big fan!!), it is hard to deny.

The best exemples I can come up with regarding ME3 is within the Normandy. In ME1 and ME2, a LOT was going on there. But now, many conversations with squadmates have been narrowed down to 2-3 comments (if any) and nothing more.  "Hello Shepard!" Doesn't cut it... Where is the dialogue wheel? Why can't I have more elaborated conversations with my squadmates? Another flagrant example that shocked me in a bad way was the static conversations with EDI... I found EDI very interesting to listen to and her jokes were hilarious... Why did my Shepard need to be so rude to her and why was she always shocked and traumatized when EDI made a joke? That is NOT the way "my" Shepard would have reacted... Where is the dialogue wheel?? Can I, please, choose the way "my" Shepard is going to react to those jokes and conversations? Their are many more instance where the character acts without the player's "say".

In that sense... People are allowed to say that ME3 is less of a "role-playing" game than it's predecessors. If the hero says and acts without a "player's choice", it's not an RPG anymore... It's story telling... It's playing a lineair game where the player has no say on what is going on. Now, ME3 has plenty of "player choice" situation, but I believe that most people complaining about this feel that those choices are narrowing down... People like to micro-manage the emotions and replies of their favorite character. I know that it's a LOT of work, but those details are VITAL for a lot of players, like me, to fully enjoy the single player experience. No matter what, keep up the good work!

Please feel free to comment on this. I would really appreciate it! Have a nice day!

[simonrana]

dreamgazer wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

So yes, I think limited dialogue options and more autodialogue are detrimental to a game's identity as an RPG, compared to other games which have more options and less autodialogue. 

Agreed.  The key feature of a role-playing game is in the genre's title: playing a role. Limiting the versatility of dialogue and other situation choices further constricts someone's ability to mold into their desired role, and there is a point of diminishing returns that BioWare is approaching through their refinement.  

The bit that's so hard to believe is that they thought it was a good idea to massively limit dialogue options mid-franchise, and in a franchise known for it's great dialogue options to boot!

I'm not actually against the idea of creating a new IP that's a more cinematic streamlined game (like the Uncharted series) but turning ME3 into one was a shocking mistake.

[Jassu1979]

I have worked on every game we've made since the end of Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhaal. EVERY time we make a game, someone complains it isn't as "RPG" as the one previously. NwN wasn't BG, KotOR wasn't NwN, Jade wasn't KotOR, ME wasn't Jade, etc.

Well, if you made that observation, maybe you should try to ask yourself whether there is not some truth to these complaints, instead of trying to rationalize them away.
Sure, you'll always find SOMEONE who complains, and not all complaints are based on valid criticism.

But yeah, there has been this trend to dumb down games and emphasize aspects that appeal more to casual players seeking the quick fix of an action-packed schooter.

Autodialogue, pared-down dialogue wheels, virtually no exploration on foot, "overheard" side quests... and for what? Linear levels focusing on the "Pew! Pew!"-aspects of the game.

ME1 was a roleplaying game with action shooter elements.
ME3 is an action shooter with (a few scant) roleplaying elements.

Heck, you can't even holster your gun. That might be a rather minuscule detail, but it just goes to show the direction in which these games have headed: less roleplay, more shooting.
,

Modifié par Jassu1979, 15 janvier 2013 - 03:31 .

[xsdob]

simonrana wrote...

xsdob wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

Though I'll admit that the intro is probably the worst auto-dialogue offender in the game (bad way to start really!)

Again. Can you prove what you say? Can you prove that ME3, the entirety of ME3, has a 79% auto-dialouge and 21% selectable dialouge, as you claimed earlier.

You posted another figure again, big deal, you have still yet to provide proof.

[Grubas]

I can imagine the writers thinking about the gamers:

"This silly gamers with their stupid entitlement. They ruin the writing, they ruin the moment, and all forced drama would not work. How can we write hollywoodlike drama, if the player refuses to care? Better they do what they are good at and leave the story to the writers. Its not even their Shepard, how dare they tell us what they expect Shepard to say?
We, the writers take control now.
Here : shoot some goons instead."

[archangel1996]

xsdob wrote...

simonrana wrote...

xsdob wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

Though I'll admit that the intro is probably the worst auto-dialogue offender in the game (bad way to start really!)

Again. Can you prove what you say? Can you prove that ME3, the entirety of ME3, has a 79% auto-dialouge and 21% selectable dialouge, as you claimed earlier.

You posted another figure again, big deal, you have still yet to provide proof.

Every mission in ME3 should have, at least, 10 dialogue choices
A mission in ME3 has 3 chocies at the very best
But again, even if it was, let's say, 40-60, 50-50,60-40 it shouldn't be anough, because the previous chapter were, simply, better than that
And i didn't talk about-You are renegade so you are a crazy sick freak, you are paragon, you must cry about Earth whever you have the occasion

Modifié par archangel1996, 15 janvier 2013 - 03:45 .

[Grubas]

xsdob wrote...

simonrana wrote...

xsdob wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

Though I'll admit that the intro is probably the worst auto-dialogue offender in the game (bad way to start really!)

Again. Can you prove what you say? Can you prove that ME3, the entirety of ME3, has a 79% auto-dialouge and 21% selectable dialouge, as you claimed earlier.

You posted another figure again, big deal, you have still yet to provide proof.

Dude you own the game yourself. Why dont you provide a counterproof? 
Do a walkthrough yourself! 
Im saying this because you dispute simonranas results.

[Kel Riever]

xsdob wrote...

simonrana wrote...

xsdob wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
I am sorry but no, it's not about opinions, you can say "l liked it" and "i didn't" and i can accept that, but this still doesn't change facts, and facts are that the RPG elements in ME3 are the weapons, the armor and a 30% of the dialogues, because the 70% is full auto

As much as I want us all to get along, I need to ask, can you even prove that 70% of the dialouge is auto-dialouge?

This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

Though I'll admit that the intro is probably the worst auto-dialogue offender in the game (bad way to start really!)

Again. Can you prove what you say? Can you prove that ME3, the entirety of ME3, has a 79% auto-dialouge and 21% selectable dialouge, as you claimed earlier.

You posted another figure again, big deal, you have still yet to provide proof.

DERP!  That IS called proof.  As mentioned, YOU go through the game and count it and come back with a statistic.

[Obitim]

Is there anyone who has actually looked at the difference between autodialogue and wheel? Are there any walkthroughs which will advise of this?

I mean a lot of the Normandy stuff is autodialogue where before it was player choice. I've got no idea about the figures but it feels like there is more autodialogue than player choices...

Although I do agree with thew above, if you want to confirm whether or not there is more of one than the other then a full playthrough is required and each instance needs to be recorded...

[Grubas]

There are enough full playthroughs on youtube. Watch and count.

[Obitim]

Grubas wrote...

There are enough full playthroughs on youtube. Watch and count.

Was this aimed at me?  Or the other dude?

[dreamgazer]

Grubas wrote...

There are enough full playthroughs on youtube. Watch and count.

The definition of wasted time and a massive headache: watching a full play-through of ME3 on YouTube and counting the auto-dialogue instances as establishment of "proof", ten months after the game's release.

[SimonTheFrog]

@ Chris Priestly wrote: "I have worked on every game we've made since the end of Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhaal. EVERY time we make a game, someone complains it isn't as "RPG" as the one previously."

Presumably because IT WAS less and less RPG every time (sorry for using this obnoxious icon, but it fits the context too well this time).

[twystedspyder]

dreamgazer wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

So yes, I think limited dialogue options and more autodialogue are detrimental to a game's identity as an RPG, compared to other games which have more options and less autodialogue. 

Agreed.  The key feature of a role-playing game is in the genre's title: playing a role. Limiting the versatility of dialogue and other situation choices further constricts someone's ability to mold into their desired role, and there is a point of diminishing returns that BioWare is approaching through their refinement.  

Indeed it is and indeed it does.

Would the primary narrative of the 3rd game even hold up if it maintained the level of player agency experienced in the first two games?  Did the needs of the plot require limiting player imput?  

[AlanC9]

simonrana wrote...
This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

What's the breakdown of that 21 %  between information options and progression choices? I'm not at all certain most of the simple questions should count, since the only choice there is whether to skip background material or not (There are a few questions that imply something about Shepar's state of mind, though).

And how do the other games stack up?

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 janvier 2013 - 05:50 .

[AlanC9]

Obitim wrote...
I mean a lot of the Normandy stuff is autodialogue where before it was player choice. I've got no idea about the figures but it feels like there is more autodialogue than player choices...

..

Bio didn't cut full squadmate interactions to do the one-liners, they added the one liners on top and locked out the full conversations unless there's something new to talk about ( no more "calibrations"). And moved some to the Citadel.

[archangel1996]

AlanC9 wrote...

simonrana wrote...
This question triggered my inner nerd, so I went to a walkthrough of ME3 and made a count of auto-lines versus dialogue wheel selected lines. I was even generous and excluded the really basic plot-progressing auto dialogue(e.g. "What's the situation?", "Move!", "Let's go", etc) and still by my calculations the split was 79% auto to 21% selectable.

What's the breakdown of that 21 %  between information options and progression choices? I'm not at all certain most of the simple questions should count, since the only choice there is whether to skip background material or not (There are a few questions that imply something about Shepar's state of mind, though).

And how do the other games stack up?

The other games are 100-0...no wait in ME2 SHep talks briefly with Vasir on his own

[AlanC9]

archangel1996 wrote...
The other games are 100-0...no wait in ME2 SHep talks briefly with Vasir on his own

Lies aren't a sensible way to proceed here.

It'll be a little hard to evaluate ME1 since it has some fake uses of the wheel.

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 janvier 2013 - 05:55 .

[archangel1996]

double

Modifié par archangel1996, 15 janvier 2013 - 05:59 .

[archangel1996]

AlanC9 wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...
The other games are 100-0...no wait in ME2 SHep talks briefly with Vasir on his own

Lies aren't a sensible way to proceed here.

It'll be a little hard to evaluate ME1 since it has some fake uses of the wheel.

Your Shep talked alone in ME1-2? there must be something wrong with both your copies of the games
Yeah, the 5-10%, even less, and are choices like "How are you doing?"
Better fake than not at all

Modifié par archangel1996, 15 janvier 2013 - 06:00 .