587 réponses à ce sujet

[xsdob]

I will be posting the links to videos I used in the dialogue analysis so others can check my results. I will also try and as accurately as I can tally the total numbers of auto-dialogue and selectable dialogue. Additionally, I will try and post the criteria for what is or is not an instance of auto-dialogue as well and take feedback on whether the criteria is acceptable or not, in order to ensure the results are as fair as I can make them. The reason I will be using someone elses uploaded videos is to ensure that I could not edit those videos in any way, making them acquired through a third party source.

Whether there is more auto-dialogue, less auto-dialogue, or an even number of auto-dialogue, will hopefully be determined by this test. I will more than likely take a few days and post this in the fan creations section to avoid a lock, if you are interested in seeing the results, pm me and I will link you to the place where my results will be posted.

[LinksOcarina]

Kabraxal wrote...

It's not really just the decline of Bioware... much of the world is more intent on appealing to the lowest common denominator to pull more fans. That means a lot of the complexity within games or movies or really anything tends to get sacrificed because the casual fan just couldn't be bothered to put up with it. There are a few outlets left out there, mostly being indy games and certain cable television programs, but for the most part much of the niche product that gets any traction is so radically altered that by the end it is unrecognisable from where it all started.

There is a reason a game like Call of Duty will sell 20 million copies while a game such as the original two Mass Effects will probably never reach that saturation point.... they are simple, require little effort, and do not demand as much from fans as many RPGs have demanded over the years. That's not to say deep, complex games cannot enjoy success... Dragon Age: Origins proves there is a sizeable market for the old style RPG still and games like Minecraft prove that games that rely totally on the effort of the player to accomplish anything are actually desired.

But, it's easier for a company like EA to go with a proven, yet tired formula to entice sales instead of the passion and creativity that treats fans as something more than adrenaline junkies looking for their next hit. So we see that casualisation of elements in Mass Effect and Dragon Age. And then they don't seem to understand when the fans cry foul...

Cut the hyperbole for a moment, and think about this seriously for a sec.

It is easy for EA to go with the tired and true formula with their game lineup, which they have been doing, there is no denying that. But the question you need to answer is why and how does EA differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd?

EA is doing nothing different from say, 2k Games or Ubisoft, where everyone is essentially playing it safe at the moment save for one-two exeptions per year. Seriously, ask yourself why and try to answer it, then ask yourself how these games are still different from each other. While were at it, define complexity here as well? Do you mean complex in narrative themes? games mechanics? ludonarrative and cognitive dissonance? What are you refering to.

And please, leave the passion and creativity out of the equation, because to call someone passionless or uncreative when you have a video game that made a ton of people cry because an alien sacrificed himself to cure a sterility plague, a robot gaining sentinence through aversion, and an completely atypical ending to what adrenaline junkies look for seems a bit disengenuous as a comment. 

[DanHarbinger]

Faust1979 wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

The flagrant evisceration of Mass Effect's RPG elements is a fruitless discussion. Facile rationalisation will always prevail. We all know that the soul of the game was sold. We all know that the plot premise and denouement of ME3 is contrived and we all know that Multiplayer/Combat and commercial pandering now assumes precedent over the fundamental formula that once afforded us all so much fulfilment and scintillation.

speak for yourself will you? I love the game and I'm happy with the ending so please kindly stop with the we all know over dramatics.

Whether you appreciate the ending or not is immaterial. The facts are the facts.

[LinksOcarina]

DanHarbinger wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

The flagrant evisceration of Mass Effect's RPG elements is a fruitless discussion. Facile rationalisation will always prevail. We all know that the soul of the game was sold. We all know that the plot premise and denouement of ME3 is contrived and we all know that Multiplayer/Combat and commercial pandering now assumes precedent over the fundamental formula that once afforded us all so much fulfilment and scintillation.

speak for yourself will you? I love the game and I'm happy with the ending so please kindly stop with the we all know over dramatics.

Whether you appreciate the ending or not is immaterial. The facts are the facts.

So are tabletop RPGs, where most of the RPG terminology comes from, commercial pandering because those are multiplayer games in person? 

And on that note, does that make Baldur's Gate commercial as well, since it also had multiplayer attached to it? 

and how do you know the previaling formula? Do you work for EA and have insider info, or are you just belching platitudes? 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 15 janvier 2013 - 07:11 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Bioware is a very mainstream company now. It should be no surprise to anyone that they're games have become more mainstream as a result.

[DanHarbinger]

LinksOcarina wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

The flagrant evisceration of Mass Effect's RPG elements is a fruitless discussion. Facile rationalisation will always prevail. We all know that the soul of the game was sold. We all know that the plot premise and denouement of ME3 is contrived and we all know that Multiplayer/Combat and commercial pandering now assumes precedent over the fundamental formula that once afforded us all so much fulfilment and scintillation.

speak for yourself will you? I love the game and I'm happy with the ending so please kindly stop with the we all know over dramatics.

Whether you appreciate the ending or not is immaterial. The facts are the facts.

So are tabletop RPGs, where most of the RPG terminology comes from, commercial pandering because those are multiplayer games in person? 

And on that note, does that make Baldur's Gate commercial as well, since it also had multiplayer attached to it? 

and how do you know the previaling formula? Do you work for EA and have insider info, or are you just belching platitudes? 

The forumla is apparent to anyone who plays the game. Furthermore, there is nothing platitudinous about this post... Mass Effect does not need multiplayer, it requires a refined and sophisticated, character driven narrative.

[LinksOcarina]

DanHarbinger wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

The flagrant evisceration of Mass Effect's RPG elements is a fruitless discussion. Facile rationalisation will always prevail. We all know that the soul of the game was sold. We all know that the plot premise and denouement of ME3 is contrived and we all know that Multiplayer/Combat and commercial pandering now assumes precedent over the fundamental formula that once afforded us all so much fulfilment and scintillation.

speak for yourself will you? I love the game and I'm happy with the ending so please kindly stop with the we all know over dramatics.

Whether you appreciate the ending or not is immaterial. The facts are the facts.

So are tabletop RPGs, where most of the RPG terminology comes from, commercial pandering because those are multiplayer games in person? 

And on that note, does that make Baldur's Gate commercial as well, since it also had multiplayer attached to it? 

and how do you know the previaling formula? Do you work for EA and have insider info, or are you just belching platitudes? 

The forumla is apparent to anyone who plays the game. Furthermore, there is nothing platitudinous about this post... Mass Effect does not need multiplayer, it requires a refined and sophisticated, character driven narrative.

Which it had...

And the multiplayer is subjective in terms of needs or not. As for the formula, maybe you should explain what you mean exactly instead of using platitudes, which was pretty much your entire post is, purple prose and all. 

[Faust1979]

DanHarbinger wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

The flagrant evisceration of Mass Effect's RPG elements is a fruitless discussion. Facile rationalisation will always prevail. We all know that the soul of the game was sold. We all know that the plot premise and denouement of ME3 is contrived and we all know that Multiplayer/Combat and commercial pandering now assumes precedent over the fundamental formula that once afforded us all so much fulfilment and scintillation.

speak for yourself will you? I love the game and I'm happy with the ending so please kindly stop with the we all know over dramatics.

Whether you appreciate the ending or not is immaterial. The facts are the facts.

So are tabletop RPGs, where most of the RPG terminology comes from, commercial pandering because those are multiplayer games in person? 

And on that note, does that make Baldur's Gate commercial as well, since it also had multiplayer attached to it? 

and how do you know the previaling formula? Do you work for EA and have insider info, or are you just belching platitudes? 

The forumla is apparent to anyone who plays the game. Furthermore, there is nothing platitudinous about this post... Mass Effect does not need multiplayer, it requires a refined and sophisticated, character driven narrative.

It does have a sophisticated character driven narrative, You can make choices that affect entire races which can in turn affect how your characters behave you can level up your character, get new powers, mod weapons, make tough decisions the game is as much an RPG as any early Bioware game. There wasn't much story inter action in early Bioware games sure there was a lot of adventuring but there really wasn't much in the way of choosing how the story plays out you may have been able to romance a few people.  I never played Multiplayer myself but there is a precedent in Bioware games that used multiplayer in the past such as Baldur's Gate 2 or Neverwinter Nights, no one is forcing you to play multiplayer.

[DanHarbinger]

LinksOcarina wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

DanHarbinger wrote...

The flagrant evisceration of Mass Effect's RPG elements is a fruitless discussion. Facile rationalisation will always prevail. We all know that the soul of the game was sold. We all know that the plot premise and denouement of ME3 is contrived and we all know that Multiplayer/Combat and commercial pandering now assumes precedent over the fundamental formula that once afforded us all so much fulfilment and scintillation.

speak for yourself will you? I love the game and I'm happy with the ending so please kindly stop with the we all know over dramatics.

Whether you appreciate the ending or not is immaterial. The facts are the facts.

So are tabletop RPGs, where most of the RPG terminology comes from, commercial pandering because those are multiplayer games in person? 

And on that note, does that make Baldur's Gate commercial as well, since it also had multiplayer attached to it? 

and how do you know the previaling formula? Do you work for EA and have insider info, or are you just belching platitudes? 

The forumla is apparent to anyone who plays the game. Furthermore, there is nothing platitudinous about this post... Mass Effect does not need multiplayer, it requires a refined and sophisticated, character driven narrative.

Which it had...

And the multiplayer is subjective in terms of needs or not. As for the formula, maybe you should explain what you mean exactly instead of using platitudes, which was pretty much your entire post is, purple prose and all. 

This is denial in its most pernicious form, or is it sychophancy? ME3 is not refined. Character driven? Generic autodialogue negates this assertion. Sophisticated? Incondite fetch quests and grotesque character negate this. etc etc etc etc etc. 

Incindentally, despite the contrived natrue of the Crucible, I actually quite like the endings and I certainly do not advocate a fanciful, cliched ending by any means. The game is formidable in many aspects, but inherently inferior when compared to aspects of previous installments.

[Kabraxal]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

It's not really just the decline of Bioware... much of the world is more intent on appealing to the lowest common denominator to pull more fans. That means a lot of the complexity within games or movies or really anything tends to get sacrificed because the casual fan just couldn't be bothered to put up with it. There are a few outlets left out there, mostly being indy games and certain cable television programs, but for the most part much of the niche product that gets any traction is so radically altered that by the end it is unrecognisable from where it all started.

There is a reason a game like Call of Duty will sell 20 million copies while a game such as the original two Mass Effects will probably never reach that saturation point.... they are simple, require little effort, and do not demand as much from fans as many RPGs have demanded over the years. That's not to say deep, complex games cannot enjoy success... Dragon Age: Origins proves there is a sizeable market for the old style RPG still and games like Minecraft prove that games that rely totally on the effort of the player to accomplish anything are actually desired.

But, it's easier for a company like EA to go with a proven, yet tired formula to entice sales instead of the passion and creativity that treats fans as something more than adrenaline junkies looking for their next hit. So we see that casualisation of elements in Mass Effect and Dragon Age. And then they don't seem to understand when the fans cry foul...

Cut the hyperbole for a moment, and think about this seriously for a sec.

It is easy for EA to go with the tired and true formula with their game lineup, which they have been doing, there is no denying that. But the question you need to answer is why and how does EA differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd?

EA is doing nothing different from say, 2k Games or Ubisoft, where everyone is essentially playing it safe at the moment save for one-two exeptions per year. Seriously, ask yourself why and try to answer it, then ask yourself how these games are still different from each other. While were at it, define complexity here as well? Do you mean complex in narrative themes? games mechanics? ludonarrative and cognitive dissonance? What are you refering to.

And please, leave the passion and creativity out of the equation, because to call someone passionless or uncreative when you have a video game that made a ton of people cry because an alien sacrificed himself to cure a sterility plague, a robot gaining sentinence through aversion, and an completely atypical ending to what adrenaline junkies look for seems a bit disengenuous as a comment. 

Not saying they do anything different, which is part of the huge problem gaming faces right now.  However, I was tying the issue back with Bioware, seeing as the decline in certain elements can be so easily correlated with EA's buyout.  ME1 and DAO were both developed primarily outside their sphere of influence.  Every game clearly developed within that sphere of influence, has the hallmark signs of EA's dirty little fingerprints: loss of stats and customisation, loss of origin variety, streamlining of choices, emphasis on action and "edgy" moments (just look at the marketing on that one...).  

But this attitude is clear in almost every big developer/publisher.  Bethesda might be the only one that isn't afraid to just let a game be itself without trying to make it something it's not to pull more fans.  And it should really be telling that many developers are trying to get around publishers and go straight to the fans to help fund their projects... there is a drive in the industry to make different and new games.  It just does not exist within the corporate behemoths gobbling up all the once proud developers.

[TheTrueObelus]

People tend to define an RPG by how much freedom it allows them. Less freedom = less like a true RPG.

At a certain point if enough freedom is removed an RPG becomes an adventure game. For instance the Walking Dead game is not what people consider an RPG. It's an adventure game. Recent Bioware games have trended toward less freedom. They are moving in the direction toward becoming like Walking Dead and moving away from Skyrim.

I love the Walking Dead game...but I think the majority want a game like Skyrim.

Modifié par TheTrueObelus, 15 janvier 2013 - 07:38 .

[zyntifox]

AlanC9 wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...
The other games are 100-0...no wait in ME2 SHep talks briefly with Vasir on his own

Lies aren't a sensible way to proceed here.

It'll be a little hard to evaluate ME1 since it has some fake uses of the wheel.

I'd rather take the illusion of being an participant in the dialogue than being an passenger.

[Faust1979]

Kabraxal wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

It's not really just the decline of Bioware... much of the world is more intent on appealing to the lowest common denominator to pull more fans. That means a lot of the complexity within games or movies or really anything tends to get sacrificed because the casual fan just couldn't be bothered to put up with it. There are a few outlets left out there, mostly being indy games and certain cable television programs, but for the most part much of the niche product that gets any traction is so radically altered that by the end it is unrecognisable from where it all started.

There is a reason a game like Call of Duty will sell 20 million copies while a game such as the original two Mass Effects will probably never reach that saturation point.... they are simple, require little effort, and do not demand as much from fans as many RPGs have demanded over the years. That's not to say deep, complex games cannot enjoy success... Dragon Age: Origins proves there is a sizeable market for the old style RPG still and games like Minecraft prove that games that rely totally on the effort of the player to accomplish anything are actually desired.

But, it's easier for a company like EA to go with a proven, yet tired formula to entice sales instead of the passion and creativity that treats fans as something more than adrenaline junkies looking for their next hit. So we see that casualisation of elements in Mass Effect and Dragon Age. And then they don't seem to understand when the fans cry foul...

Cut the hyperbole for a moment, and think about this seriously for a sec.

It is easy for EA to go with the tired and true formula with their game lineup, which they have been doing, there is no denying that. But the question you need to answer is why and how does EA differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd?

EA is doing nothing different from say, 2k Games or Ubisoft, where everyone is essentially playing it safe at the moment save for one-two exeptions per year. Seriously, ask yourself why and try to answer it, then ask yourself how these games are still different from each other. While were at it, define complexity here as well? Do you mean complex in narrative themes? games mechanics? ludonarrative and cognitive dissonance? What are you refering to.

And please, leave the passion and creativity out of the equation, because to call someone passionless or uncreative when you have a video game that made a ton of people cry because an alien sacrificed himself to cure a sterility plague, a robot gaining sentinence through aversion, and an completely atypical ending to what adrenaline junkies look for seems a bit disengenuous as a comment. 

Not saying they do anything different, which is part of the huge problem gaming faces right now.  However, I was tying the issue back with Bioware, seeing as the decline in certain elements can be so easily correlated with EA's buyout.  ME1 and DAO were both developed primarily outside their sphere of influence.  Every game clearly developed within that sphere of influence, has the hallmark signs of EA's dirty little fingerprints: loss of stats and customisation, loss of origin variety, streamlining of choices, emphasis on action and "edgy" moments (just look at the marketing on that one...).  

But this attitude is clear in almost every big developer/publisher.  Bethesda might be the only one that isn't afraid to just let a game be itself without trying to make it something it's not to pull more fans.  And it should really be telling that many developers are trying to get around publishers and go straight to the fans to help fund their projects... there is a drive in the industry to make different and new games.  It just does not exist within the corporate behemoths gobbling up all the once proud developers.

Jade Empire came out long before the EA buyout and was more action focused than previous games. Had less stats, had no real inventory system. Mass Effect followed the trend of having less stats and being more action based as well

Modifié par Faust1979, 15 janvier 2013 - 07:49 .

[Iakus]

TheTrueObelus wrote...

People tend to define an RPG by how much freedom it allows them. Less freedom = less like a true RPG.

At a certain point if enough freedom is removed an RPG becomes an adventure game. For instance the Walking Dead game is not what people consider an RPG. It's an adventure game. Recent Bioware games have trended toward less freedom. They are moving in the direction toward becoming like Walking Dead and moving away from Skyrim.

I love the Walking Dead game...but I think the majority want a game like Skyrim.

I'm going to slightly disagree here.  I think what people want are aspects of each:  They want a Task to perform, but want freedom in how to go about it.

The Walking Dead is, as you say, not a true RPG.  Lee has an objective (protect Clem) but the player has little freedom in how to go about it (though it does well in providing the illusion of freedom)

Skyrim has a paper-thin story and very little in the way of memorable quests or characters (imo anyway) but you can go anywhere and do anything in that game. 

ME 3 pretended what we did mattered, that we had freedom to choose, but we were heavily constrained in what we can say or do, and even the outcomes of what we could affect felt comparatively minor, save in a couple of specific cases.  It got to the point where Shepard stopped feeling like our character, and was just another NPC we were watching.

[archangel1996]

xsdob wrote...

I will be posting the links to videos I used in the dialogue analysis so others can check my results. I will also try and as accurately as I can tally the total numbers of auto-dialogue and selectable dialogue. Additionally, I will try and post the criteria for what is or is not an instance of auto-dialogue as well and take feedback on whether the criteria is acceptable or not, in order to ensure the results are as fair as I can make them. The reason I will be using someone elses uploaded videos is to ensure that I could not edit those videos in any way, making them acquired through a third party source.

Whether there is more auto-dialogue, less auto-dialogue, or an even number of auto-dialogue, will hopefully be determined by this test. I will more than likely take a few days and post this in the fan creations section to avoid a lock, if you are interested in seeing the results, pm me and I will link you to the place where my results will be posted.

Man, when you will finish this this topic will be already forgotten
Don't waste your time, as i already sayed plenty of times it's more likely a 50-50, but still it's crap if we go to see ME1 and 2
It's not about %, it's about far too many auto dialogues that shouldn't have been there, that's all

[JamesFaith]

TheTrueObelus wrote...

People tend to define an RPG by how much freedom it allows them. Less freedom = less like a true RPG.

At a certain point if enough freedom is removed an RPG becomes an adventure game. For instance the Walking Dead game is not what people consider an RPG. It's an adventure game. Recent Bioware games have trended toward less freedom. They are moving in the direction toward becoming like Walking Dead and moving away from Skyrim.

I love the Walking Dead game...but I think the majority want a game like Skyrim.

I think this is more about type of RPG videogame then about simple genre RPG. There are more then one universal RPG formula.

Games with predefined character (Witcher, Risen) would have different freedom of dialog choices and autodialog then games with blank hero (Oblivion).

RPGs with one character (Deus Ex) are quite different then RPGs with companions (ME, KOTOR) or fully created party (Icewind Dale).

And same is with completely open world (Fallout 3), open world with some limitations (Risen 2) or closed world (Deus Ex 3).

People have tendency to create RPG definiton based on one favourite sub-genre, but one "non-RPG" or "major RPG" aspect of one sub-genre should have completely different impotance in another one.

[argan1985]

Obitim wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Obitim wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

snip...

So how has Bethesda maanged to produce Oblivio and Skyrim in that case?

otherwise, very good points, the costs of games are much higher now, although as stated in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (I'm paraphrasing badly too!), you do the movie you want to do, then you do the movie the studio wants you to do for the cash...

Bethesda goes the "broaden audience" path as well.

Oblivion/Skyrim and Fallout too are visually stunning and very action oriented. They resemble GTA'esque sandbox as much as traditional RPG's. Like I said, there is potential there.

That's why I think if BioWare does honest post-mortems and keeps at it, than there is a high possibility for satisfying games.

Also, I'm sure they are thinking about getting some old-scool RPG with kickstarter out-there. Many people there are old-schoolers, too.

yeah, I guess, but there is a lot of stat juggling, inventory management and equipment knowledge in fallout 3/Oblivion/Skyrim...  On the other hand I never saw if there was much backlash about Fallout 3 going to first person...

If they do decide to do an old school RPG then that would be ace, we'll have to see what happens in the future...

There was massive outrage over the Bethesda rape of Fallout, especially at NMA, the most prestigious fan-site out there. The lore, the setting, the very game design, the writing.

[Thaa_solon]

Bioware is slowly killing the RPG genre

[Morty Smith]

Thaa_solon wrote...

Bioware is slowly killing the RPG genre

There is none.

Apparently.

[vware]

ME3 is more RPG than ME2.

There, I said it.

[Grubas]

vware wrote...

ME3 is more RPG than ME2.

There, I said it.

opinions... everyone has one.

[Grubas]

xsdob wrote...

Alright than. If it's really so much of an issue, and since the original poster of the claim is too lazy and overly dramatic to do so, I will do it.

I am currently in college, but I will begin working as soon as I have free time. Anything to put crap claims with no proof like the ones made in this thread to rest with hard, empirical data.

What kind of proof do you want to present here? 
Simonrana explicitly mentioned that his observation is made upon a walkthrough dedicated to this. 
I believe him, because it fits my observation aswell. Exact numbers put aside of course.

[WYLDMAXX]

ME3 had less critical choice and more forced choices.

A lack of a paragon interrupt to allow for Udina to survive is one example of this.

[zyntifox]

xsdob wrote...

I will be posting the links to videos I used in the dialogue analysis so others can check my results. I will also try and as accurately as I can tally the total numbers of auto-dialogue and selectable dialogue. Additionally, I will try and post the criteria for what is or is not an instance of auto-dialogue as well and take feedback on whether the criteria is acceptable or not, in order to ensure the results are as fair as I can make them. The reason I will be using someone elses uploaded videos is to ensure that I could not edit those videos in any way, making them acquired through a third party source.

Whether there is more auto-dialogue, less auto-dialogue, or an even number of auto-dialogue, will hopefully be determined by this test. I will more than likely take a few days and post this in the fan creations section to avoid a lock, if you are interested in seeing the results, pm me and I will link you to the place where my results will be posted.

Just curious, as a statistician, what will your sampling method be?

Edit: If you want suggestions on how to get a good representative sample of the whole game i could help you. I do this all day at work on financial data but it should be applicable to a project such as this as well.

Modifié par Cstaf, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:21 .

[AlanC9]

Thaa_solon wrote...

Bioware is slowly killing the RPG genre

If Bioware can kill it this way, it deserves to die.

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .