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I think that's it, there has been a marked 'streamlining' since EA took over which is a shame as I remember reading when the acquisition was going though and it being stated that 'there would be no outward change'.
Perhaps as Liamv2 said, it is streamlining but I feel it's a case of making the game simpler for a larger audience, and a lot of the people who originally bought into the Bioware game have just been discounted.
The decline of the Bioware RPG
Débuté par
Obitim
, janv. 14 2013 11:40
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#27
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:33
SimonTheFrog
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Sorry to bring this up, but there is a possibility that BioWare must adapt to a different market situation.
Games were much cheaper to create back in ye olden days. So, catering to a niche audience created a valid business case.
If you create a visually and play-length wise comparable title nowadays, the costs exploded. You can't compare producing games back then to producing games to nowadays.
The costs are in no way the same.
There are several options here:
1.) BioWare could create games with the same visual quality like DA:O (or earlier) to a small niche audience but it would have to use crowdfunding and get redundant of about 95% of their staff.
2.) BioWare could produce much smaller games with 5-10 hours of gameplay. This would likely cause in very bad reviews and could potentially kill the company.
3.) BioWare could try to broaden their audience and deliver high visual and gameplay value which contains both the RPG vibe and a more casual, easy digestable coolness. This is a compromise which has a tendency to make everybody unhappy but keeps the ship from sinking.
4) BioWare could make high visual long gameplay games for a niche audience and charge 200$ per unit. Probably not a good idea.
There is no other option.
They went tor option 3, obviously.
A benign spirit would see the potential and would see that BioWare is rather unfamiliar with the "cool" side of games and makes mistakes. But there is hope that they do their post-mortems like every other company and come up with better ideas how to make RPG's cool.
I just hope, that if they continue to do sci-fi that they start to embrace hard science and plausible story telling again. That would be awesome and wouldn't scare away the "cool" kids either if well done.
Games were much cheaper to create back in ye olden days. So, catering to a niche audience created a valid business case.
If you create a visually and play-length wise comparable title nowadays, the costs exploded. You can't compare producing games back then to producing games to nowadays.
The costs are in no way the same.
There are several options here:
1.) BioWare could create games with the same visual quality like DA:O (or earlier) to a small niche audience but it would have to use crowdfunding and get redundant of about 95% of their staff.
2.) BioWare could produce much smaller games with 5-10 hours of gameplay. This would likely cause in very bad reviews and could potentially kill the company.
3.) BioWare could try to broaden their audience and deliver high visual and gameplay value which contains both the RPG vibe and a more casual, easy digestable coolness. This is a compromise which has a tendency to make everybody unhappy but keeps the ship from sinking.
4) BioWare could make high visual long gameplay games for a niche audience and charge 200$ per unit. Probably not a good idea.
There is no other option.
They went tor option 3, obviously.
A benign spirit would see the potential and would see that BioWare is rather unfamiliar with the "cool" side of games and makes mistakes. But there is hope that they do their post-mortems like every other company and come up with better ideas how to make RPG's cool.
I just hope, that if they continue to do sci-fi that they start to embrace hard science and plausible story telling again. That would be awesome and wouldn't scare away the "cool" kids either if well done.
#28
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:34
Giga Drill BREAKER
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Liamv2 wrote...
Nope me3 is still an RPG
It isn't.
#29
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:34
jancz89
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Liamv2 wrote...
jancz89 wrote...
snip
as i said it is an RPG just a streamlined one
if you say so, for me ME3 is no longer RPG
but I must say that the way from RPG to ME3 was way subtler in this franchize than in dragon age series, DA:O is awesome 90% game, but when I first saw DA2 demo I thought it was a beta version of a full game, I said to myself "yeah they will add textures here and there, make the interface richer like in DA:O" and then I realized that this was finished game, I was literarly like that
Modifié par jancz89, 14 janvier 2013 - 12:38 .
#30
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:34
Knubbsal
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Obsidian is making Project Eternity and Black Isle is back too. Who knows what they'll brew up. Then there's the Neverwinter MMO, but we can all imagine where that one is going... Same for that Elder Scrolls MMO. I really don't get why everyone is still making MMOs, but in any case, it'll be nice to have some competition for BioWare in the RPG department.
Have to say this, though: The Mass Effect series has always been more about action than any of those other games. An RPG in towns and a shooter everywhere else. Then things get worse as the games get ported from and to consoles. I know I'm stepping on some toes here, but hey, we can't unsheathe our weapons when we want since consoles couldn't handle it!
Have to say this, though: The Mass Effect series has always been more about action than any of those other games. An RPG in towns and a shooter everywhere else. Then things get worse as the games get ported from and to consoles. I know I'm stepping on some toes here, but hey, we can't unsheathe our weapons when we want since consoles couldn't handle it!
#31
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:37
Liamv2
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DinoSteve wrote...
Liamv2 wrote...
Nope me3 is still an RPG
It isn't.
As stated down in the comments it is just a streamlined one
#32
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:40
archangel1996
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I played Rise of the Argonauts and i found it to be a quite good RPG with not too much expetatives, i like it because, unlike it, and this hurts the most, because ME3 was meant to be great and it ended to be the worst
Modifié par archangel1996, 14 janvier 2013 - 12:41 .
#33
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:41
Obitim
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SimonTheFrog wrote...
Sorry to bring this up, but there is a possibility that BioWare must adapt to a different market situation.
Games were much cheaper to create back in ye olden days. So, catering to a niche audience created a valid business case.
If you create a visually and play-length wise comparable title nowadays, the costs exploded. You can't compare producing games back then to producing games to nowadays.
The costs are in no way the same.
There are several options here:
1.) BioWare could create games with the same visual quality like DA:O (or earlier) to a small niche audience but it would have to use crowdfunding and get redundant of about 95% of their staff.
2.) BioWare could produce much smaller games with 5-10 hours of gameplay. This would likely cause in very bad reviews and could potentially kill the company.
3.) BioWare could try to broaden their audience and deliver high visual and gameplay value which contains both the RPG vibe and a more casual, easy digestable coolness. This is a compromise which has a tendency to make everybody unhappy but keeps the ship from sinking.
4) BioWare could make high visual long gameplay games for a niche audience and charge 200$ per unit. Probably not a good idea.
There is no other option.
They went tor option 3, obviously.
A benign spirit would see the potential and would see that BioWare is rather unfamiliar with the "cool" side of games and makes mistakes. But there is hope that they do their post-mortems like every other company and come up with better ideas how to make RPG's cool.
I just hope, that if they continue to do sci-fi that they start to embrace hard science and plausible story telling again. That would be awesome and wouldn't scare away the "cool" kids either if well done.
So how has Bethesda maanged to produce Oblivio and Skyrim in that case?
otherwise, very good points, the costs of games are much higher now, although as stated in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (I'm paraphrasing badly too!), you do the movie you want to do, then you do the movie the studio wants you to do for the cash...
#35
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:45
Obitim
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I've also got to say that I accept that the mechanics do need to be different for a hack and slash RPG to a shooter RPG, but this was managed with KOTOR...
#36
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:47
mcgreggers99
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My IQ declined after reading this post.
#37
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:49
jstme
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SimonTheFrog wrote...
Sorry to bring this up, but there is a possibility that BioWare must adapt to a different market situation.
Games were much cheaper to create back in ye olden days. So, catering to a niche audience created a valid business case.
If you create a visually and play-length wise comparable title nowadays, the costs exploded. You can't compare producing games back then to producing games to nowadays.
The costs are in no way the same.
There are several options here:
1.) BioWare could create games with the same visual quality like DA:O (or earlier) to a small niche audience but it would have to use crowdfunding and get redundant of about 95% of their staff.
2.) BioWare could produce much smaller games with 5-10 hours of gameplay. This would likely cause in very bad reviews and could potentially kill the company.
3.) BioWare could try to broaden their audience and deliver high visual and gameplay value which contains both the RPG vibe and a more casual, easy digestable coolness. This is a compromise which has a tendency to make everybody unhappy but keeps the ship from sinking.
4) BioWare could make high visual long gameplay games for a niche audience and charge 200$ per unit. Probably not a good idea.
There is no other option.
They went tor option 3, obviously.
A benign spirit would see the potential and would see that BioWare is rather unfamiliar with the "cool" side of games and makes mistakes. But there is hope that they do their post-mortems like every other company and come up with better ideas how to make RPG's cool.
I just hope, that if they continue to do sci-fi that they start to embrace hard science and plausible story telling again. That would be awesome and wouldn't scare away the "cool" kids either if well done.
There is nothing wrong with making awesome games that are dilluted RPGs or even not RPGs at all. So if Bioware truly choose option 3 and delivered game with the same general quality (not talking about bugs here) but belonging to different genres - it would be understandable.
What happens is actually option 5 - release the games that sells much better then predeccessors at impossible schedule while helping other projects simultaneously despite workforce cuts.
For an example, DA2 does not have that much better graphics then DA:O, despite having considerably less content and smaller settings.
All recent games sufered from rushed development (maybe not ME2 - but i am biased since i absolutly love this game) and loss of content plus "streamlining" in my opinion have more to do with schedule then with an attempt to attract more people.
#38
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:53
SimonTheFrog
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Bethesda goes the "broaden audience" path as well.Obitim wrote...
SimonTheFrog wrote...
snip...
So how has Bethesda maanged to produce Oblivio and Skyrim in that case?
otherwise, very good points, the costs of games are much higher now, although as stated in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (I'm paraphrasing badly too!), you do the movie you want to do, then you do the movie the studio wants you to do for the cash...
Oblivion/Skyrim and Fallout too are visually stunning and very action oriented. They resemble GTA'esque sandbox as much as traditional RPG's. Like I said, there is potential there.
That's why I think if BioWare does honest post-mortems and keeps at it, than there is a high possibility for satisfying games.
Also, I'm sure they are thinking about getting some old-scool RPG with kickstarter out-there. Many people there are old-schoolers, too.
#39
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:54
Obitim
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What happens is actually option 5 - release the games that sells much better then predeccessors at impossible schedule while helping other projects simultaneously despite workforce cuts.
For an example, DA2 does not have that much better graphics then DA:O, despite having considerably less content and smaller settings.
All recent games sufered from rushed development (maybe not ME2 - but i am biased since i absolutly love this game) and loss of content plus "streamlining" in my opinion have more to do with schedule then with an attempt to attract more people.
I think this is the crux of it, rushed development causes shortcuts which cause a drop in quality, which is a real shame in a flagship franchise
#40
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:55
SimonTheFrog
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jstme wrote...
SimonTheFrog wrote...
snip.
There is nothing wrong with making awesome games that are dilluted RPGs or even not RPGs at all. So if Bioware truly choose option 3 and delivered game with the same general quality (not talking about bugs here) but belonging to different genres - it would be understandable.
What happens is actually option 5 - release the games that sells much better then predeccessors at impossible schedule while helping other projects simultaneously despite workforce cuts.
For an example, DA2 does not have that much better graphics then DA:O, despite having considerably less content and smaller settings.
All recent games sufered from rushed development (maybe not ME2 - but i am biased since i absolutly love this game) and loss of content plus "streamlining" in my opinion have more to do with schedule then with an attempt to attract more people.
Sounds they tried a combination of option 2 and 3 for DA2. No wonder it didn't work too well...
#41
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 12:58
Obitim
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SimonTheFrog wrote...
Bethesda goes the "broaden audience" path as well.Obitim wrote...
SimonTheFrog wrote...
snip...
So how has Bethesda maanged to produce Oblivio and Skyrim in that case?
otherwise, very good points, the costs of games are much higher now, although as stated in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (I'm paraphrasing badly too!), you do the movie you want to do, then you do the movie the studio wants you to do for the cash...
Oblivion/Skyrim and Fallout too are visually stunning and very action oriented. They resemble GTA'esque sandbox as much as traditional RPG's. Like I said, there is potential there.
That's why I think if BioWare does honest post-mortems and keeps at it, than there is a high possibility for satisfying games.
Also, I'm sure they are thinking about getting some old-scool RPG with kickstarter out-there. Many people there are old-schoolers, too.
yeah, I guess, but there is a lot of stat juggling, inventory management and equipment knowledge in fallout 3/Oblivion/Skyrim... On the other hand I never saw if there was much backlash about Fallout 3 going to first person...
If they do decide to do an old school RPG then that would be ace, we'll have to see what happens in the future...
#42
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 01:08
Legbiter
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For us purists it's not an RPG unless it's an inventory management system with a story tacked onto it.
#44
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 01:14
JamesFaith
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@SimonTheFrog
I sincerely agree with your post.
In fact I'm just playing game which tried your option n.1, Inquisitor. They used old time graphic and created hardcore old-school RPG with a lot of texts, strategical combat, huge multi-leveled dungeons with secrets doors and traps, many abilities and so on.
Result?
Steam was so supsicious about it that finished game ended in Greenlight and some comments are really interesting considering problem you wrote about. When old-school gamers praised it and compared it with the most classic RPGs, many others rejected it because of "ugly old graphic", too difficult gameplay and lack of multiplayer.
Ironically same thing some critics here on BSN considering not too important or needless, are important for others and developers have to try appeal both groups, which si more difficult then these groups think.
As you said, way n.3 is probably most viable option now, even when it is far from perfect.
I sincerely agree with your post.
In fact I'm just playing game which tried your option n.1, Inquisitor. They used old time graphic and created hardcore old-school RPG with a lot of texts, strategical combat, huge multi-leveled dungeons with secrets doors and traps, many abilities and so on.
Result?
Steam was so supsicious about it that finished game ended in Greenlight and some comments are really interesting considering problem you wrote about. When old-school gamers praised it and compared it with the most classic RPGs, many others rejected it because of "ugly old graphic", too difficult gameplay and lack of multiplayer.
Ironically same thing some critics here on BSN considering not too important or needless, are important for others and developers have to try appeal both groups, which si more difficult then these groups think.
As you said, way n.3 is probably most viable option now, even when it is far from perfect.
#45
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 01:24
Argolas
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I still have my hopes up that DA3 will fix all of this.
Shut up about me being irrational. I'm never rational when it's about hopes for games, or music for that matter.
Shut up about me being irrational. I'm never rational when it's about hopes for games, or music for that matter.
#46
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 01:25
Autoclave
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All the hell broke loose when they decided to kill Shepard at the beginning of ME2. This is when all the BS began.
#47
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 01:28
JamesFaith
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Argolas wrote...
I still have my hopes up that DA3 will fix all of this.
Shut up about me being irrational. I'm never rational when it's about hopes for games, or music for that matter.
In fact you are very rational. Wise man will judge it when it is released, irrational man would criticise it without seeing it and long before it is finished.
#48
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 01:36
Obitim
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JamesFaith wrote...
Argolas wrote...
I still have my hopes up that DA3 will fix all of this.
Shut up about me being irrational. I'm never rational when it's about hopes for games, or music for that matter.
In fact you are very rational. Wise man will judge it when it is released, irrational man would criticise it without seeing it and long before it is finished.
This!
#49
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 01:37
knightnblu
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Yeah, I stopped thinking of Mass Effect as an RPG with ME2. ME3 is more of a shooter with RPG elements. Frankly, I don't think that people are really interested in a true RPG anymore.
#50
Posté 14 janvier 2013 - 01:40
MacroSpamMK
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How isn't ME3 an RPG?
It contains dialogue...yet a lot of it is auto-dialogue, however we still get to make choices when speaking, something most shooter's lack.
It contains a good story (I said the story was good, I must be the dumbest person on Earth, right?) which is something a lot of shooter's lack (See Black Ops).
It contains heavy character interaction, something most shooter's lack. Yes, in a shooter I can like a character but mostly because they are badass or something along those lines.
It contains an exploration element. Yes, nowhere near as much as ME1 or ME2, but you can still roam around the Citadel/Normandy and interact with people. This is also something quite a few shooters lack.
The choices you make DO matter. Yes, the ending comes down to 4 options albeit at different levels of destruction, but the choices you made in ME1 and 2 do come back in 3 (actually, not so much in 1) and the choices you make in 3 effect latter parts of the game, including Thane, the VS and whether or not Miranda will survive.
Now, I am aware that ME3 contained a lot more shooting and less talking than the previous two games. Unfortunately, a lot of new gamers out there aren't interested in the story and are more interested in...shooting things. Bioware have to find a compromise, and whilst ME3 didn't live up to a lot of people's expectations as a classical RPG, to claim it isn't an RPG is pure rubbish.
TL;DR - ME3 is an RPG and anyone who disagrees should be harvested.
It contains dialogue...yet a lot of it is auto-dialogue, however we still get to make choices when speaking, something most shooter's lack.
It contains a good story (I said the story was good, I must be the dumbest person on Earth, right?) which is something a lot of shooter's lack (See Black Ops).
It contains heavy character interaction, something most shooter's lack. Yes, in a shooter I can like a character but mostly because they are badass or something along those lines.
It contains an exploration element. Yes, nowhere near as much as ME1 or ME2, but you can still roam around the Citadel/Normandy and interact with people. This is also something quite a few shooters lack.
The choices you make DO matter. Yes, the ending comes down to 4 options albeit at different levels of destruction, but the choices you made in ME1 and 2 do come back in 3 (actually, not so much in 1) and the choices you make in 3 effect latter parts of the game, including Thane, the VS and whether or not Miranda will survive.
Now, I am aware that ME3 contained a lot more shooting and less talking than the previous two games. Unfortunately, a lot of new gamers out there aren't interested in the story and are more interested in...shooting things. Bioware have to find a compromise, and whilst ME3 didn't live up to a lot of people's expectations as a classical RPG, to claim it isn't an RPG is pure rubbish.
TL;DR - ME3 is an RPG and anyone who disagrees should be harvested.
