587 réponses à ce sujet

[RocketManSR2]

HolyAvenger wrote...

What you would call a decline, some would call an evolution, I guess.

DAO was the last great true RPG they made, I'll agree with that.

I will never understand how joining the other generic cover-based shooters is an "evolution" for BioWare. Their games used to stand out, now they're just another action game company. As long as EA is in charge, things will only get worse. The masses want "cool" and lots of pewpew and "awesome button" so EA will keep giving it to them, dragging BioWare right along with them.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 14 janvier 2013 - 01:43 .

[HolyAvenger]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

What you would call a decline, some would call an evolution, I guess.

DAO was the last great true RPG they made, I'll agree with that.

I will never understand how joining the other generic cover-based shooters is an "evolution" for BioWare. Their games used to stand out, now they're just another action game company. As long as EA is in charge, things will only get worse. The masses want "cool" and lots of pewpew and "awesome button" so EA will keep giving it to them, dragging BioWare right along with them.

Because appealing to a larger audience = selling more games = profit. Simples.

[Astrogenesis]

I think the point 'that Bioware dumbed down and streamlined the RPG elements to appeal to non RPG customers' is just BS!

In ME3 they added the option to play the game in Action Mode which basically made all the choices for you so that Shooter fans didn't need to engage more than the 2 braincells they only have!

The Action Mode was an insult to RPG fans of the series.

"Hey guys, so after ME2 we decided to make ME3 more streamlined for you, because our amazebalz market research team think this is what you want. But if that's not enough for you, you can press this button, and hey presto, the game basically plays itself!"

[Argolas]

Obitim wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I still have my hopes up that DA3 will fix all of this.

Shut up about me being irrational. I'm never rational when it's about hopes for games, or music for that matter.

In fact you are very rational. Wise man will judge it when it is released, irrational man would criticise it without seeing it and long before it is finished.  

This!

Well yeah, let's not lose hope. We all know they can do it. They just need to do it.

[Obitim]

MacroSpamMK wrote...

How isn't ME3 an RPG?

It contains dialogue...yet a lot of it is auto-dialogue, however we still get to make choices when speaking, something most shooter's lack.

It contains a good story (I said the story was good, I must be the dumbest person on Earth, right?) which is something a lot of shooter's lack (See Black Ops).

It contains heavy character interaction, something most shooter's lack. Yes, in a shooter I can like a character but mostly because they are badass or something along those lines.

It contains an exploration element. Yes, nowhere near as much as ME1 or ME2, but you can still roam around the Citadel/Normandy and interact with people. This is also something quite a few shooters lack.

The choices you make DO matter. Yes, the ending comes down to 4 options albeit at different levels of destruction, but the choices you made in ME1 and 2 do come back in 3 (actually, not so much in 1) and the choices you make in 3 effect latter parts of the game, including Thane, the VS and whether or not Miranda will survive.

Now, I am aware that ME3 contained a lot more shooting and less talking than the previous two games. Unfortunately, a lot of new gamers out there aren't interested in the story and are more interested in...shooting things. Bioware have to find a compromise, and whilst ME3 didn't live up to a lot of people's expectations as a classical RPG, to claim it isn't an RPG is pure rubbish.

TL;DR - ME3 is an RPG and anyone who disagrees should be harvested.

I have to disagree here, I think the inclusion of the autodialogue is the issue, as basically it just makes the time walkin ground the Normandy/Citadel one giant cutscene, with the only difference being that you are the one doing the walking round...

I think the way certain choices in ME2 and ME1 were reflected were sometimes done well (the Feros survivors) but other times were done quite badly (the Rachni).

I can't say it's not an RPG, as most peopel have stated, it has interaction, some choices, customisation and levelling, but you have at least 2 of those in Call of Duty multiplayer!

I do stand by what I said in terms of the changes detracting from the main game tho and making it not feel like an RPG in the sense of the ones I have played, as has been mentioned, I like inventory management, I like to level up and have to choose if I want to invest in certain skills or not.  Why can;t I be a biotic who wields sniper rifles? (ME2 more than ME3)

SO that's why I think ME3 is a decent shooter but a pretty weak RPG.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I think Bioware games are getting better and better.

[RocketManSR2]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I think Bioware games are getting better and better.

If by "better and better" you mean more and more generic, then you are correct. See my above post.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:28 .

[dreamgazer]

Yes, BioWare's games have moved from RPGs to action-RPGs, and I'm not really crazy about it.

I'm concerned for the state of pure-blooded RPGs in general, though, since they're largely declining across the board.

[Obitim]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I think Bioware games are getting better and better.

Fair enough, how?

[clarkusdarkus]

They're is still demand for RPG games as skyrim sold millions and thats a SP RPG and god i bet EA hate that......i do miss my old JRPG's tho, FF, star ocean second story, legend of dragoon, chrono trigger/cross, azure's dreams, unlike the tripe they throw out today.....

[Iakus]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I think Bioware games are getting better and better.

If by "better and better" you mean more and more generic, then you are correct. See my above post.

Yeah hard to believe Bioware was the company that revolutionized rpgs a decade and a half ago.

Now they don't seem to be broadening their audience so much as trading in old for new.  Like we're the "starter fans"

[RocketManSR2]

iakus wrote...

Yeah hard to believe Bioware was the company that revolutionized rpgs a decade and a half ago.

Now they don't seem to be broadening their audience so much as trading in old for new.  Like we're the "starter fans"

That's kinda how I feel as a fan of BioWare's old school games, that I'm not wanted anymore.

- Generic action games w/MP sell like hotcakes, I'm not denying that. But does every damn game that comes out have to be like that? Is there no room in EA's plans for some variety? Let BioWare make a true evolution of their great RPGs of old, not turn them into a brainless shooter. BioWare should have continued to refine their style of game, not bow to EA and completely change how they make games.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:44 .

[matt-bassist]

Quit beating around the bush guys, we all know it was the rEApers...

[matt-bassist]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Yeah hard to believe Bioware was the company that revolutionized rpgs a decade and a half ago.

Now they don't seem to be broadening their audience so much as trading in old for new.  Like we're the "starter fans"

That's kinda how I feel as a fan of BioWare's old school games, that I'm not wanted anymore.

- Generic action games w/MP sell like hotcakes, I'm not denying that. But does every damn game that comes out have to be like that? Is there no room in EA's plans for some variety? Let BioWare make a true evolution of their great RPGs of old, not turn them into a brainless shooter. BioWare should have continued to refine their style of game, not bow to EA and completely change how they make games.

EA Executive A: Yo B, don't you think we should maybe make a few games that have a bit more integrity, ingenuity and variety instead of just creating mindless shooters with Multiplayer? I know they make us and, more importantly, our investors lots of money, but can't we just once or twice choose creativity over profits?

EA Executive B: Said no one ever.

EA Executive A: Word.

Modifié par matt-bassist, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:50 .

[NRieh]

Who remember Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic?

I'm replaying it right now. And I even used to love it back then. And I love D20 stuff etc. But now after I've seen some other things - I have to admit that KOTOR had a lot of game-design issues and bugs (that were never fixed). Those who bring KOTOR as an example of perfect RPG are suffering from heavy "a grass was greener" syndrome.

ME2 Shepard could say "no" to Cerberus, and be rude to TIM, and still be a paragon. Yes, it did not change things, but Shepard could openly hate Cerberus and get job done. In KOTOR I'm either chaotic evil dark jedi or fluffy padawan. Hero can't say no to Council, and can not show any disrespect.

Yes, many loved this game, because after all those pure action-based games (Dark Force - Jedi Knight - Jedi Academy) it was a huge change in everything, it was first true SW-based RPG, that used great RP engine and setting. But if you look closer - it has no polished carefully written characters, dialogues and locations (like ME1 or DAO) yet and it already has no "total freedom" of Fallout due to first steps towards voiced games. I can actually name only 1 good and memorable party banter(warrior vs soldier) and 1 interesting character - darkside assassin-droid). Variety of dialogue options? 3 at best, same as Hawke, but witty Hawke was witty, not stupid, and some of Hawke's paraphrases looked better than KOTOR full lines.

So, no matter how green was grass for you 10 years ago - a lot of things were improved. Something was lost -yes. I doubt we will get back to turn-base and D20, but turn-base and D20 were never key features for RPG.

ps: and you mentioned NWN here, but I doubt it belongs to this group. NWN is not really a game itself, it's a MMO RP engine, a PC version of PnP DnD games. All good things NWN has belong to Forgotten Realms and ADnD v3(&3.5), not to BW. While I 100% agree, that it's a perfect example of RP game - it has nothing to do with provided sample modules and writing. "Official" story was good enough to show what Aurora and GM toolset can do (which was it's purpose), but it was not so great. True fun happened only with live GM.

[SimonTheFrog]

As far as the relationship between EA and BioWare has been described in the past it is not one that would involve discussions about what kind of game BioWare has to produce.

Appearantly EA sets the profit margin they expect and BioWare has to deliver. How they accomplish the margins is completely up to them (withing the boundaries set by the legal system so, blackjack and hookers are not an option)

As a consequence, BioWare is wholly to blame for what content we get.

[stonbw1]

Nrieh wrote...

Who remember Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic?

I'm replaying it right now. And I even used to love it back then. And I love D20 stuff etc. But now after I've seen some other things - I have to admit that KOTOR had a lot of game-design issues and bugs (that were never fixed). Those who bring KOTOR as an example of perfect RPG are suffering from heavy "a grass was greener" syndrome.

ME2 Shepard could say "no" to Cerberus, and be rude to TIM, and still be a paragon. Yes, it did not change things, but Shepard could openly hate Cerberus and get job done. In KOTOR I'm either chaotic evil dark jedi or fluffy padawan. Hero can't say no to Council, and can not show any disrespect.

Yes, many loved this game, because after all those pure action-based games (Dark Force - Jedi Knight - Jedi Academy) it was a huge change in everything, it was first true SW-based RPG, that used great RP engine and setting. But if you look closer - it has no polished carefully written characters, dialogues and locations (like ME1 or DAO) yet and it already has no "total freedom" of Fallout due to first steps towards voiced games. I can actually name only 1 good and memorable party banter(warrior vs soldier) and 1 interesting character - darkside assassin-droid). Variety of dialogue options? 3 at best, same as Hawke, but witty Hawke was witty, not stupid, and some of Hawke's paraphrases looked better than KOTOR full lines.

*snip* 

KOTOR was a perfect storyline/theme to implement an RPG and BW knocked it out of the park with a great story.  You could choose good or evil with drastic effects.  You could choose combat styles and exploration was encouraged, whether by treking across the countryside to digging deep in conversation with squadmates. 

With that said, making KOTOR an RPG was simple because of the clear good vs evil. I've always thought that ME-series would be tougher to write because there are shades of grey and that it would be just silly to make Shep an "evil" guy, because most rationale people don't go choking people out to get a 10 % discount...

[SimonTheFrog]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

They're is still demand for RPG games as skyrim sold millions and thats a SP RPG and god i bet EA hate that......i do miss my old JRPG's tho, FF, star ocean second story, legend of dragoon, chrono trigger/cross, azure's dreams, unlike the tripe they throw out today.....

RPG's are especially difficult to create. On a technical level, i mean.
The combat system is much more complex and prone to error (in comparison to shooters etc), the quest system is usually a pain in the butt and the need to have massive amounts of content is obvious.

The risk to create something like this is very, very high. And history shows that failing to nail a hit once or twice pretty much is the end of the developer. See "The Kingdom of Amalur" etc.

This is the games industry for you. It's not a pleasant place for devs and publishers.

That is why i'm so excited about crowdfunding. It minimizes risks for devs to try out interesting and fresh ideas. We'll see how this will work in the future.

I put more money into kickstart in 2012 than in conventionally shipped titles. Lets all do this

[Brovikk Rasputin]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...
I think Bioware games are getting better and better.

If by "better and better" you mean more and more generic, then you are correct. See my above post.

I disagree with your post.

Obitim wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...
I think Bioware games are getting better and better.

Fair enough, how?

Better gamepla. Better visuals and audio. More interesting lore instead of the usual trolls and wizards. Streamlined (yes, streamlined, not "dumbed down") RPG elements, so that you spent more time actually using your skills rather than assigning numbers. I could go on, but I don't see any areas where Bioware games have gotten worse since ME1. 

Fandango9641 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...
I think Bioware games are getting better and better.

And you also have the signature of a 12 year old.

Thanks for the interesting input. Reported. 

Modifié par Brovikk Rasputin, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:39 .

[Darth Malice113]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I think Bioware games are getting better and better.

http://replygif.net/i/142




It's pretty clear to me that with the past few BW releases, we are seeing a fundimental streamlining of their IP's.

The questions these pose are..... Is this good for innovation?.... Is this good gaming?

Who knows.

I for one want less cliched generic experiances, unfortunately that seems to be current norm.  Biowares recent examples do not bode well for my hopes.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Darth Malice113 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I think Bioware games are getting better and better.

*useless gif*
It's pretty clear to me that with the past few BW releases, we are seeing a fundimental streamlining of their IP's.

The questions these pose are..... Is this good for innovation?.... Is this good gaming?

Who knows.

I for one want less cliched generic experiances, unfortunately that seems to be current norm.  Biowares recent examples do not bode well for my hopes.

To be quite honest, I don't care what's 'good for gaming' or not. I enjoy the game. 

Many people complained about the long intro to Assassin's Creed 3's long intro. Too long and 'boring' they said. How dare the developers try and flesh out the characters of their game!

Many people complained about the many cutscenes of Max Payne 3. Well, they add to an already amazing story, so what's the big deal? Short attention spans?!

You know what's bad for gaming? Gamers.

[sharkboy421]

RocketManSR2 wrote...


I will never understand how joining the other generic cover-based shooters is an "evolution" for BioWare. Their games used to stand out, now they're just another action game company.

What about ME1?  The combat in ME1 used the cover-based, third person shooter mechanics.  Now granted it was very clunky and primitive cover system compared to ME2 and 3, but still the game was meant to be played with Shepard taking cover during combat.  And to continue along those lines, ME has always had a lot of "action" in it. 

So while the game play has become more refined and smoother, I don't quite understand what your getting at.  Even with DAO and DA2,its the same combat system.  DA2 may have sped it up and used much flashier animations but its the same combat system as DAO.  And most of the complaints about the combat in DA2 were addressed in its dlcs, which to me suggests that EA's rushing of DA2 is the biggest reason for its many flaws.

I think I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think I would call Bioware just another "action game company" either.

[clennon8]

I think DAO is a bit overrated, DA2 is underrated, and ME3 was a flawed gem with a highly controversial ending.