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[Vortex13]

 I made this topic earlier in the ME section, but it didn't recieve much attention, so I figured I would try the DA section and see what this side of the community thought. 

Vortex13 wrote...

 I am curious about the handling of these two elements between these two different franchises. Now, while I dislike the endings to ME 3, it would be lazy and mean spirited to simply call out "bad writing" on synthesis and derail the topic with anti-ending and pro-ending debate.

I would like to better understand people's views on the subject so that I can get a better understanding of the situation. I want to see the pro-synthesis points of view as well as the pro-destroys point of view; even if I remain unconvinced one way or the other I would like to understand why one side thinks one way vs. another.

Okay now on to the topic at hand (and please feel free to challenge me/correct me on any points), the Architect's plan; as detailed in DA: The Calling and DA:A, is portrayed (IMO) competly opposite of how Synthesis is in ME 3. Both options seek to end conflict by removing differences, by making both sides even as it were. 

The Architect wants to essentially make all people (humans, elves, dwarves, Qunari, ect.) into Darkspawn hybrids (or Grey Wardens if that's how you want to look at it) and 'Awaken' all Darkspawn, thus ending the Blights and stop the cycles of violence.

The Catalyst wants (heavily favors) Shepard picking Synthesis, which will result in organics taking on synthetic qualities and synthetics taking on an organic level of understanding thus ending the need for the continued cycles and solving it's prime directive.

Most will agree that Architect's plan = Fantasy Synthesis in overall concept. My question is why does the two franchises portray the two (almost) identical choices in such widely divergent ways? 

Now I am not using the "Bioware loves Synthesis" card here, but even pro-synthesis have to admit that from a purely objective, gameplay perspective that Synthesis is the hardest to get (excluding the Breath Scene) and would therefore be the 'optimal' ending. Also, narratively speaking, Synthesis is the ending portrayed with the least amount of drawbacks. Forget the "too perfect to be true" line, if taken at face value, Synthesis' only downside is that Shepard dies. 

In DA however, the opposite holds true. The Archiect's plan is something the protagonists (in the book) reject as horrid and abominable. The effects of the plan, if brought to completition, would result in hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths of people not being able to survive the joining. The expansion DA:A goes on to point out the problems that arise with the plan, namely the Architect causing the Blight of the main game, and by The Mother's insanity. Granted not all Awakened Darkspawn are insane, but the fact that the game points out the dangers of the 'fantasy synthesis' is interesting.

Now personally, I don't trust Synthesis and view both it and the Architect's plan as something to be fought against, but I would like to gain insight as to why people think Synthesis works and/or why Bioware choice to portray to nearly identical elements in opposite lights.

[Knight of Dane]

But the darkspawn plan requires broodmothers since Grey Wardens/Tainted people can't/are unlikely to get children, and Darkspawn are only.. Spawned... by Broodmothers.
Which require the raping and molesting of female untainted humans/elves/dwarves/qunari to create.

I hate either, but Darkspawnification is worse imo.

[Vortex13]

Knight of Dane wrote...

But the darkspawn plan requires broodmothers since Grey Wardens/Tainted people can't/are unlikely to get children, and Darkspawn are only.. Spawned... by Broodmothers.
Which require the raping and molesting of female untainted humans/elves/dwarves/qunari to create.

I hate either, but Darkspawnification is worse imo.

True, Darkspawn and the Darkspawn hybrids wouldn't be able to have children, but for the people that survive the Joining and Darkspawn in general would never die of old age, hunger, ect.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Taint; while very deadly and corrupting to Thedas and the minds of those affected; does grant a form of immortality. How else would we fight Ancient Darkspawn in the Deep Roads or how could the Goulified Warden Commander still be alive in the Legacy DLC?

[Althix]

Knight of Dane wrote...
 Darkspawn are only.. Spawned... by Broodmothers.

yeah this is why my Warden had killed Architect

Vortex13 wrote...
 how could the Goulified Warden Commander still be alive in the Legacy DLC?

because taint kills slowly? and it takes about 30 years before effect of the Taint set in.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:07 .

[Sol Downer]

Vortex13 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

But the darkspawn plan requires broodmothers since Grey Wardens/Tainted people can't/are unlikely to get children, and Darkspawn are only.. Spawned... by Broodmothers.
Which require the raping and molesting of female untainted humans/elves/dwarves/qunari to create.

I hate either, but Darkspawnification is worse imo.

True, Darkspawn and the Darkspawn hybrids wouldn't be able to have children, but for the people that survive the Joining and Darkspawn in general would never die of old age, hunger, ect.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Taint; while very deadly and corrupting to Thedas and the minds of those affected; does grant a form of immortality. How else would we fight Ancient Darkspawn in the Deep Roads or how could the Goulified Warden Commander still be alive in the Legacy DLC?

Is sanity...the price to pay...FOR POWER?!

Modifié par Ultimashade, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:07 .

[Althix]

Sanity is for the weak.

[Vortex13]

secretsandlies wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...
 Darkspawn are only.. Spawned... by Broodmothers.

yeah this is why my Warden had killed Architect

I didn't. Not because I agreed with his plan, but because I liked his character, and the Darkspawn overall. Usually, I play as a Paragon/Good character in RPGs, but for DA I decided to go with what I liked/found interesting over how morally right or wrong it was; meaning my Warden picked the werewolves and golems as well.

But I agree, the Darkspawn are evil, no way around it. Any being that corrupts the very ground it walks apon l, and can only come into existence by forcing canabalizim on and raping women needs to go. 

[legbamel]

But humans who are tainted don't turn into Darkspawn. They become ghouls and I don't know whethwr they "enjoy" the long life that the 'spawn seem to. Even if all people pass the Joining the change to the blood (or the use of the Archdemon's blood) seems only to delay that process. It seems to me that the Darkspawn by far gat the better end of that deal.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

That acient Magister Darkspawn has been alive for a fairly long time so I'd say that the Taint if it was made to not be deadly would probably grant immortality. If the Darkspawn become both peaceful and the immortality theory is true then the need for broodmothers will go down drastically because they wouldn't be waging a constant world war. We shall ascend.

Rejoice!

[Knight of Dane]

Well to be fair, Corypheus was sealed magically and we don't know for how long Larius was a ghoul, keep in mind that the warden taint is magically enchanted.

The best case for immortal people would be Sophia Dryden, but maybe the payoff in Avernus self preservation magic is keepiung her alive also, he basically confirms that he would be dead if not for augmented blood magic.
Edit: besides she's posessed, kinds forgot that very minor detail.. 

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:24 .

[Sol Downer]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

That acient Magister Darkspawn has been alive for a fairly long time so I'd say that the Taint if it was made to not be deadly would probably grant immortality. If the Darkspawn become both peaceful and the immortality theory is true then the need for broodmothers will go down drastically because they wouldn't be waging a constant world war. We shall ascend.

Rejoice!

But they rape and kill. RAPE and KILL. I fail to see the logic here.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

They rape and kill because they're driven insane by the old god's 'singing' to them. The Architect's potion blocks the song so they are now sentient like the other four races of Thedas. Sure there will be some who are evil but there will be ones who are good. It might also be possible that the Architect can find a way to make broodmothers without the need for an outside source.

[Althix]

So, why werewolfs? they are useless in battle, elves are better. Golems? Golems is a good choice they make it easier to fight at Fort Drakon entrance.
Understand this, the green ending and the Architect plan have nothing in common. Architect do not seek for unification of entire world under taint, or making everyone like those hybrids of darkspawns. He seeks to give his people a free will. Yes perhaps this will stop the Blights. However:
- this will make Wardens useless. No Blight - no need in Wardens.
- With out Brood Mothers population of darkspawns will drop down fast. Because darkspawns have it shoot first ask questions later appearance.
- Darkspawn population will decline due inside conflicts or war against other nations such as dwarfs will result in need of more brood mothers or victims to boost their numbers.
- i would rather fight normal darkspawn rather than smart one.
- waking the Old God is still a possibility

Fate of Architect is not question of morality. It simply a calculation of consequences. And those calculations are not in his favor. And major argument that with out Blights - there is no need in Wardens.

Synthesis is a kind of retarded space magic, which turns sci fi game in some kind of gay crap. Like walking green husks or brutes. Also alive sex doll for Joker.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:07 .

[Vortex13]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

The Architect wants to essentially make all people (humans, elves, dwarves, Qunari, ect.) into Darkspawn hybrids (or Grey Wardens if that's how you want to look at it) and 'Awaken' all Darkspawn, thus ending the Blights and stop the cycles of violence.

Bullscat.

Did I miss/mistake something about the Architect's plan?

[Wulfram]

EntropicAngel wrote...



He never says a thing about changing people, at least in the game. He says plenty about using Grey Warden blood to "cure" Darkspawn, but regular people are not a part of the equation.

Not Synthesis.

The "turn everyone into darkspawn" plan is from the books

[Althix]

He seeks to free Darkspawn, not making a world full of corrupted individuals.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

I do not play ME 3. I only review the endings, including Synthesis ending, through youtube, and I'm not impressed even with the Extended Cut endings. Hence, I'm not familiar with the concept of  synthesis
 in ME 3. But I do play  Dragon Age Awakening and I do know about the Architech's plan.

Vortex13 wrote...
The Architect wants to essentially make all people (humans, elves, dwarves, Qunari, ect.) into Darkspawn hybrids (or Grey Wardens if that's how you want to look at it) and 'Awaken' all Darkspawn, thus ending the Blights and stop the cycles of violence.

The Catalyst wants (heavily favors) Shepard picking Synthesis, which will result in organics taking on synthetic qualities and synthetics taking on an organic level of understanding thus ending the need for the continued cycles and solving it's prime directive.

Most will agree that Architect's plan = Fantasy Synthesis in overall concept. My question is why does the two franchises portray the two (almost) identical choices in such widely divergent ways?

 It doesn't. The Architect wants to prevent future blights by disrupting the connection between the darkspawns and the Old Gods with the grey warden's blood. It has nothing to do with making all people into darkspawn. And the blights are not comparable with the cycle of destruction. The blights is finite since the Old gods are finite, while the cycle of destruction is the continous process of evolution. It is suppose to be inevitable that all advanced civilizations will eventually evolve into the reapers.  
 

[Althix]

He seeks to kill Old Gods by releasing the taint on Thedas. This will free darkspawn and establish peace between them and other nations. Which is not a good idea. Simply because of kill count and other aspects like darkspawn reproduction.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:28 .

[Plaintiff]

Well, for starters, darkspawn and synthetics are not equivalent. As you yourself point out, forcing every non-Darkspawn on Thedas to undergo the joining would kill a significant chunk of people immediatly, while the survivors would be condemned to drastically shorter lives, and the fact that tainted individuals have trouble conceiving would mean that, ultimately, all the other races would die out, leaving only the Darkspawn.

Synthesis has no such downsides, so the two situations are not equivalent. The reason they are portrayed differently is because they are different. One turns people's eyes green and the other drives them to extinction.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:34 .

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

He never says a thing about changing people, at least in the game. He says plenty about using Grey Warden blood to "cure" Darkspawn, but regular people are not a part of the equation.

Not Synthesis.

The "turn everyone into darkspawn" plan is from the books

Which he's probably abandoned now that he's found a better alternative.

[Vortex13]

I guess the Calling's (book) version of the Architect's plan would be more likened unto Synthesis. The Architect in Awakening says that he is only wanting to free the Darkspawn, but then again (according to the book) he doesn't have the best track record when it comes to full disclosure. I let him go because I liked the character (kind of like Vader, Sovreign/Harbinger, ect.) but I didn't really feel he was being completely honest with me.

Also, both choices (Architect's plan and Synthesis) are based on the same basic concept even if the details are different. Both call for an absolute mindset, the belief that conflict can ONLY be solved by leveling the playing field. What I find interesting is how the fundemental basis for each option is portrayed in nearly opposite lights, despite coming from the same developer (yes I know different teams ect.).

To use a generalized political analogy: Synthesis is the Liberal mindset to an absolute solution. "If everybody was the same, if everybody had the same amount of money, ect. then there would be no conflict." The Architect's (primarily how it is portrayed in the Calling) is the Conservative approach to an absolute solution. "Making everybody the same, spreading the wealth around, ect. is wrong."

[MisterJB]

Hey, Plaintiff and I agree on something. Check the sky for gryphons.

EntropicAngel wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The "turn everyone into darkspawn" plan is from the books

Then we need some type of place we can see this. A quote from the book perhaps.

“You plan on unleashing the taint on the surface?”
“Those that survive,” it began slowly, “will become immune to
the taint, as the Grey Wardens are. This is an immunity they
would pass on to their offspring.”

“But they would be tainted. Like I am now.”

The creature nodded, as if this was something it had already
considered and that didn’t bother it in the slightest. “That is so. I
told you earlier that darkspawn and humanity would need to find
a middle ground. That is humanity’s part. Your people would
endure a great change.”