78 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

“You plan on unleashing the taint on the surface?”
“Those that survive,” it began slowly, “will become immune to
the taint, as the Grey Wardens are. This is an immunity they
would pass on to their offspring.”

“But they would be tainted. Like I am now.”

The creature nodded, as if this was something it had already
considered and that didn’t bother it in the slightest. “That is so. I
told you earlier that darkspawn and humanity would need to find
a middle ground. That is humanity’s part. Your people would
endure a great change.”

Interesting. That indicates a lack of knowledge on the difference between how a Grey Warden is tainted and how other people are tainted. Never mind how he believes people can still breed when tainted.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:44 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Which he's probably abandoned now that he's found a better alternative.

What alternative? Free the darkspawn from the old gods by using the grey warden blood?
But the Architect already planned to free the darkspawn from the call of the old gods by killing them while they were still imprisioned and he still wanted to release the Taint into the surface.
The two facets of his plan were entirely unrelated. Therefore, just because he found a better way to achieve one; freeing the darkspawn; doesn't mean he has abandoned the other; Tainting the entirety of humanity.

[Kidd]

I'm game with the architect as long as the sentient darkspawn agree that killing sentient beings of other races for their own procreation is not okay. Gain intelligence, gain rights, and gain responsibility.

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Hey, Plaintiff and I agree on something. Check the sky for gryphons.

Well, even if I think everyone who disagrees with me on matters of ethics is a drooling moron, I still expect them to be able to recognize observable facts. The sky is blue, water is wet, and tainting the entire population of Thedas is not the same thing as synthesis.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

What alternative? Free the darkspawn from the old gods by using the grey warden blood?

Yes. And he's no doubt done research into the nature of the Taint on non-Grey Wardens. Hence why he took living specimens.

Curiously, Seranni has shown no signs of bearing the Taint. And Armaas tells us that the Architect promised him protection. All Wardens are capable of sensing the Taint in people, so if either of the two were tainted our Warden could go "Wait..."

But the Architect already planned to free the darkspawn from the call of the old gods by killing them while they were still imprisioned and he still wanted to release the Taint into the surface.

Which backfired horribly.

 

The two facets of his plan were entirely unrelated. Therefore, just because he found a better way to achieve one; freeing the darkspawn; doesn't mean he has abandoned the other; Tainting the entirety of humanity.

See above, where it seems that by what Awakening shows us there isn't anything to support him still operating off of that mindset.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:49 .

[nightscrawl]

The reason I spare the Architect is that he is pretty vague about his overall plan. There really isn't time, given the situation in the game, for him to explain everything since we're heading to the Mother. So I'm willing to give him a chance once the immediate danger is past. After that, if I don't like what he has to say, I'd say that my Warden is certainly capable of killing him, since she killed the Archdemon.

Also an issue here is how much of the book content regarding something like this should we take as canon? Since The Calling takes place before our game plays, there isn't any concern on that front and there are no alternative "choices" to portray. Can it be considered historical content? Maybe only what the Architect says in DAA can be considered "true."

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Interesting. That indicates a lack of knowledge on the difference between how a Grey Warden is tainted and how other people are tainted. Never mind how he believes people can still breed when tainted.

In the novel the Architect freely admits that he is ignorant about many things. Pretty much everything, except the miracle of his own sentience (which he cannot explain), has been trial and error. This could also be a result of further fine tuning of darkspawn lore in that David wrote it one way for the novel and the final iteration in the game was a bit different.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:59 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The main thing I find as correlated between Synthesis and the Architect's Plan is horror. Just as many would be horrified at being mutated into Darkspawn abominations, many would be absolutely disgusted with being transformed into a robot/organic hybrid with unknown design, functionality and purpose. Not everyone would want to share a wireless network with every other being's mind, being cajoled into the same thought process and outcomes like the Geth.

It is a horror show morally and terrible science. At least the Architect's plan had a logical means of distribution. A green blast of energy would have zero way of being able to identify which beings were sentient and which were not, then converting their biology into a suitable technological hybrid system.

Would monkeys be included in this hybridization? They have rudimentary communication, use of tools and low-level tribe systems. If not, would the Neadrathals have been? If not, would the Yahg? Would the Hanar? It's a terribly slippery slope that defies any sort of ability to answer with the only feedback mechanism being a FTL energy blast. Not to mention the only thing that the Crucible adds is more power, which would not be the limiting factor in such an endeavor, but the logistics in how to identify a sentient being and then inherently know how to rearrange their biology to accommodate a technological integration. It's not science, it's space magic, pure and simple.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Curiously, Seranni has shown no signs of bearing the Taint. And Armaas tells us that the Architect promised him protection. All Wardens are capable of sensing the Taint in people, so if either of the two were tainted our Warden could go "Wait..."

Which he does. Replay the Silverite Mines. The Warden remarks Seranni is Tainted.

 

See above, where it seems that by what Awakening shows us there isn't anything to support him still operating off of that mindset.

Probrably because he has now realized that not every Grey Warden will abide by this plan.
My point stands, freeing the darkspawn and Tainting humanity are two different, unrelated steps of a plan with the ultimate goal of ensuring the peaceful coexistance of both species.
Inventing a better method of dealing with one does not mean you have given up on the other.

[Plaintiff]

Vortex13 wrote...
To use a generalized political analogy: Synthesis is the Liberal mindset to an absolute solution. "If everybody was the same, if everybody had the same amount of money, ect. then there would be no conflict." The Architect's (primarily how it is portrayed in the Calling) is the Conservative approach to an absolute solution. "Making everybody the same, spreading the wealth around, ect. is wrong."

Liberals don't want to force conformity, they want, generally, the exact opposite; for diversity to be accepted, even celebrated, and for people to have the freedom to live their lives however they choose, so long as they don't harm anyone.

I think that you'll find very few Liberals who think that people aren't entitled to the money they earn and should be forced to "spread the wealth around".

[TEWR]

Which he does. Replay the Silverite Mines. The Warden remarks Seranni is Tainted.

not once in my 40 playthroughs of the game have I seen such an option. Do you happen to have proof of it? All I've ever seen is the Warden pleading for help, or an explanation, but never saying "Good good, let the taint flow through you".

At most, he'll call Seranni crazy when she shows up during the Dragonbone Wastes bit. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:00 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Interesting. That indicates a lack of knowledge on the difference between how a Grey Warden is tainted and how other people are tainted. Never mind how he believes people can still breed when tainted.

The process is largely the same. The Grey Wardens take an enormous amount of Taint all at once meant to strengthen their body should they survive. There are certain ingredients such as Archdemon blood that are exclusive to the Joining but that is what differs Grey Wardens from Taint survivors such as Dog.
Dog can be cured with a simple plant and thereafter, he is immune to the Taint. It stands to reason the process could be repeated with humans even if they do not become Grey Wardens.

Also, Tainted creatures can breed. The Warden impregnates Morrigan regardless of the Ritual should they lay together but once and Dog is said to have sired many pups.
It's hard but not impossible. It would be even harder if EVERYONE is Tainted, true.

[TEWR]

Also, Tainted creatures can breed.

Wardens can. We've never seen a Ghoul in the sense of say... Hespith breeding normally. Which is what I meant.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:02 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The main thing I find as correlated between Synthesis and the Architect's Plan is horror. Just as many would be horrified at being mutated into Darkspawn abominations, many would be absolutely disgusted with being transformed into a robot/organic hybrid with unknown design, functionality and purpose. Not everyone would want to share a wireless network with every other being's mind, being cajoled into the same thought process and outcomes like the Geth.

It is a horror show morally and terrible science. At least the Architect's plan had a logical means of distribution. A green blast of energy would have zero way of being able to identify which beings were sentient and which were not, then converting their biology into a suitable technological hybrid system.

Would monkeys be included in this hybridization? They have rudimentary communication, use of tools and low-level tribe systems. If not, would the Neadrathals have been? If not, would the Yahg? Would the Hanar? It's a terribly slippery slope that defies any sort of ability to answer with the only feedback mechanism being a FTL energy blast. Not to mention the only thing that the Crucible adds is more power, which would not be the limiting factor in such an endeavor, but the logistics in how to identify a sentient being and then inherently know how to rearrange their biology to accommodate a technological integration. It's not science, it's space magic, pure and simple.

This is the reason why I hate science fiction genre.

[Bfler]

I think his experiments in Awakening with the blood of the Warden are to unleash the taint to the surface. Don't forget, that you have to fight the tainted clones of your party members.

On the other side, the two Warden in the book, which are already transformed, turn against him, so his plan seems a bit risky.

Modifié par Bfler, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:03 .

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Curiously, Seranni has shown no signs of bearing the Taint. And Armaas tells us that the Architect promised him protection. All Wardens are capable of sensing the Taint in people, so if either of the two were tainted our Warden could go "Wait..."

Seranni and Utha both show signs of being ghouls, the latter more than the former due to having it longer.  He seems to be able to slow the taint's working on his pets, but since he talks about many humans dying in his grand plan, that obviously has loopholes.

I haven't played ME3 and don't really care about it, but consider both synthesis and the Architect's plan to be abhorrent.  You don't get to rape the universe with green goo, fundamentally changing every living being, and you don't get to decide for humanity (and elven- and dwarf-kind) that they're going to be ghouls now.  Even for the greater good.

[TEWR]

Bfler wrote...
. Don't forget, that you have to fight the tainted clones of your party members.

I always thought of them as being just Wardens whom he's given his "accelerated Taint" thingy or alternatively Ghouls he found in the Deep Roads and took for his experiments and then gave the armor of the party to them -- as Ghouls are hardly limited to being something the Architect creates in his spare time. They'll happen regardless unless there's protection from the Taint.

Like Armaas has.

[nightscrawl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Curiously, Seranni has shown no signs of bearing the Taint. And Armaas tells us that the Architect promised him protection. All Wardens are capable of sensing the Taint in people, so if either of the two were tainted our Warden could go "Wait..."

I've always thought she looked tainted. She's got the cloudy eye thing going on.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which he does. Replay the Silverite Mines. The Warden remarks Seranni is Tainted.

not once in my 40 playthroughs of the game have I seen such an option. Do you happen to have proof of it? All I've ever seen is the Warden pleading for help, or an explanation, but never saying "Good good, let the taint flow through you".

At most, he'll call Seranni crazy when she shows up during the Dragonbone Wastes bit. 

Third option. You'll have to quote the post.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:09 .

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...
Seranni and Utha both show signs of being ghouls, the latter more than the former due to having it longer.  He seems to be able to slow the taint's working on his pets, but since he talks about many humans dying in his grand plan, that obviously has loopholes.

Well, Utha was a Grey Warden so she'd definitely show signs of Ghoulism. But Seranni doesn't show any signs at all, facially. From what I could tell, anyway.

MisterJB wrote...

You'll have to quote the post.

Huh... I wonder why it's never shown up for me. Does she happen to say anything to that option?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:11 .

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, Utha was a Grey Warden so she'd definitely show signs of Ghoulism. But Seranni doesn't show any signs at all, facially.

Yes she does- she has blackened skin and opaque, odd-looking eyes.

What Utha experiences is different than Warden taint, or at least it is an accelerated version.  She submitted to the Architect changing her.

[Althix]

hmm thanks for quote from the book. i just knew he was hiding something from my Warden. Good thing that "kill the alien" superstition is always with me.

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

Yes she does- she has blackened skin and opaque, odd-looking eyes.

I dunno, I've never been able to really see it. Then again, considering in all the 3 times we see her I don't get a close enough view of her skin to really tell, it's no wonder I couldn't see it.

She submitted to the Architect changing her.

I remember reading that. Though The Calling said she lost her hair as a result, yet she has hair in DAO:A. Hmmm....

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:16 .

[Addai]

Well The Calling said a lot of things that didn't end up in Awakening. It seems to have been used more as inspiration than as prequel.