225 réponses à ce sujet

[Galbrant]

Yes, obviously, At some point Shepard-Catalyst is going to need to replace his/her lost Reapers. But really Shepard A.I, is just Locutus the Reaper. Happy Harvesting.

Harvest Moon Mass Effect Edition. I would buy it.

[Iakus]

Jassu1979 wrote...

It does not matter much whether Shepard re-starts the cycle of destruction or not.

She's already become an immortal god-emperor, and the implications of that are truly horrifying - even if it's Paragon Shepard and her Galactic Policeman-vibe we are talking about.

Yup:

"I can't trust the galaxy to take care of itself, so I'll take care for them, whether they want me to or not"

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

Since in modern society dictatorship became a negative-only description of using power, both my points are accurate nowadays. It doesn't matter if it's just a single ruler or an organization anymore. People already have a stereotype "dictator=evil", "dictatorship=evil". Do you think anyone on BSN will understand me, if I'll say "dictatorship=good"?

A stereotype that is well earned, not that it matters because it's not my point. 

The two points remain. The first one for Catalyst based on Paragon Shepard, and the second one for Catalyst based on Renegade Shepard. Both are valid, but I prefer the first one.

They're both dictatorships, and dictatorships have a very long history of ending badly for the vast majority of people involved. 

Whether you think they're valid or not is irrelevant, the fact remains that the Shepalyst has absolute authority, unmatched power, and no one to hold it accountable. What it says, goes. Someone's idealistic headcanon doesn't interest me. 

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

Since in modern society dictatorship became a negative-only description of using power, both my points are accurate nowadays. It doesn't matter if it's just a single ruler or an organization anymore. People already have a stereotype "dictator=evil", "dictatorship=evil". Do you think anyone on BSN will understand me, if I'll say "dictatorship=good"?

A stereotype that is well earned, not that it matters because it's not my point. 

The two points remain. The first one for Catalyst based on Paragon Shepard, and the second one for Catalyst based on Renegade Shepard. Both are valid, but I prefer the first one.

They're both dictatorships, and dictatorships have a very long history of ending badly for the vast majority of people involved. 

Whether you think they're valid or not is irrelevant, the fact remains that the Shepalyst has absolute authority, unmatched power, and no one to hold it accountable. What it says, goes. Someone's idealistic headcanon doesn't interest me. 

If someone overwatch power, then who will overwatch overwatchers? Who will overwatch overwatchers of overwatchers?...

Someone has power, and others have to obey. Starting to overwatch a power you force others to obey, and become part of that power. There is always a leader and a followers. Power works that way.

It doesn't matter if only one person or several persons or a huge organization have the right to give orders. It doesn't matter if someone overwatch the authority or not. What does matter is what are the ruler(s)' goals and what exactly is the plan to achieve these goals.

Saying that "if there is only one person in charge, then the person is evil" - is too short-sighted. Everything depends on who exactly is that person.

Modifié par Seival, 18 janvier 2013 - 11:06 .

[Steelcan]

^. Who watches the Watchmen?

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

How on earth do people come up with such an asinine conclusion that the Shepalyst will restart the cycle based on no evidence? Like at all?

Humans are alive and well in the Stargazer scene so I really don't get how they can come to such a conclusion.

Are those humans?

I would assume so. 

Oh, the irony

:innocent:

[Reorte]

All the most likely explanations of what goes on in Control would say that it's very, very possible. However what's plausible and what's actually supposed to be happening with ME3, particularly things ending-related, are usually contradictory so by that standard probably not.

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

If someone overwatch power, then who will overwatch overwatchers? Who will overwatch overwatchers of overwatchers?...

Someone has power, and others have to obey. Starting to overwatch a power you force others to obey, and become part of that power. There is always a leader and a followers. Power works that way.

It doesn't matter if only one person or several persons or a huge organization have the right to give orders. It doesn't matter if someone overwatch the authority or not. What does matter is what are the ruler(s)' goals and what exactly is the plan to achieve these goals.

Are you reading everything I'm saying? 

The Shepalyst has absolute power and authority over everyone. It answers to no one. It's the closest thing to a literal god. 

No, it today's world, there aren't people like that. No one has absolute power, and everyone answers to someone else.

Things never end well when one person tries to put themselves above everyone else. 

Saying that "if there is only one person in charge, then the person is evil" - is too short-sighted. Everything depends on who exactly is that person.

I never said anything about the Shepalyst being evil, simply that having one unanswerable person with absolute power isn't going to end well.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 19 janvier 2013 - 01:13 .

[RiptideX1090]

Do I think Reaper-Shepard is going to start another cycle? I don't know.

Am I willing to take that chance? No way in hell.

[Indy_S]

How does CataShep spend most of his days? Would he get bored enough to start some Aperture Science type experiments? Would he just sleep through eternity?

Something bad is going to happen from absolute power. If he decides slavery is abominable, the entire galaxy will be made to comply. Economies will ache from this and the galaxy would start to resent their overlord. And the answer to that resentment is repression. Given the tools at his disposal, repression is either violence or indoctrination. Something bad is going to happen from absolute power.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

He definitely will. Ultimate power cannot be controlled without corruption.

IF YOU PICK CONTROL, YOU ARE PRACTICALLY RECREATING THE CATALYST.

Have fun with your new cycle! Dumbasses...

[garrusfan1]

yeah i agree cause the it would no longer be shepard

[AlanC9]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The Shepalyst has absolute power and authority over everyone. It answers to no one. It's the closest thing to a literal god. 

No, it today's world, there aren't people like that. No one has absolute power, and everyone answers to someone else.

Things never end well when one person tries to put themselves above everyone else. 

Never? There have been some pretty successful absolute monarchs.

[The Night Mammoth]

AlanC9 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The Shepalyst has absolute power and authority over everyone. It answers to no one. It's the closest thing to a literal god. 

No, it today's world, there aren't people like that. No one has absolute power, and everyone answers to someone else.

Things never end well when one person tries to put themselves above everyone else. 

Never? There have been some pretty successful absolute monarchs.

Not never, then, may have forgotten or purposefully avoided that little idea called a monarchy, but in modern times it never, or very, very rarely, ends well for most people involved. Different forms of society, and slightly different in that monarchs still relied on the loyalty of individuals. 

The Shepalyst has a nigh invincible, unquestioning army of giant robots, husks, and tools like indoctrination, to work with. 

[78stonewobble]

I would be kind to my rabbit subjects... At first...

[Seival]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

He definitely will. Ultimate power cannot be controlled without corruption.

IF YOU PICK CONTROL, YOU ARE PRACTICALLY RECREATING THE CATALYST.

Have fun with your new cycle! Dumbasses...

Corruption of what? A program?... It's like saying that you can hack a computer using a battery

If you pick Control, you just give Catalyst your Shepard's personality, nothing more.

Restarting the Cycles is quite possible for the Catalyst based on some specific Renegade Shepard's personality. And that is also valid solution.

Modifié par Seival, 19 janvier 2013 - 04:58 .

[Reorte]

Seival wrote...

Corruption of what? A program?... It's like saying that you can hack a computer using a battery

If you pick Control, you just give Catalyst your Shepard's personality, nothing more.

Restarting the Cycles is quite possible for the Catalyst based on some specific Renegade Shepard's personality. And that is also valid solution.

If it remains a human personality then it can be corrupted. If it's completely uncorruptable then it's definitely not Shepard seeing as I doubt there's a human being alive who wouldn't end up making a mess given all that power, and infinite time to use it. After all if it really is Shepard the first thing a great many Shepards would do is order the Reapers straight into the nearest black hole. The fact that that doesn't happen means that Shepalyst is either unwilling or unable to, and neither of those bode well.

[dreamgazer]

Would you consider the Catalyst getting creative with its original, well-intended programming to be a "corruption of absolute power?"

[Reorte]

dreamgazer wrote...

Would you consider the Catalyst getting creative with its original, well-intended programming to be a "corruption of absolute power?"

Depends upon how much independence of thought it has (which raises the question again about how Shepard-like Shepalyst can be - can its hardware support a full and accurate model of a human personality?)

[78stonewobble]

Reorte wrote...

Seival wrote...

Corruption of what? A program?... It's like saying that you can hack a computer using a battery

If you pick Control, you just give Catalyst your Shepard's personality, nothing more.

Restarting the Cycles is quite possible for the Catalyst based on some specific Renegade Shepard's personality. And that is also valid solution.

If it remains a human personality then it can be corrupted. If it's completely uncorruptable then it's definitely not Shepard seeing as I doubt there's a human being alive who wouldn't end up making a mess given all that power, and infinite time to use it. After all if it really is Shepard the first thing a great many Shepards would do is order the Reapers straight into the nearest black hole. The fact that that doesn't happen means that Shepalyst is either unwilling or unable to, and neither of those bode well.

Thats an interesting debate.

A program is sort of set from the get go. An intelligence can learn, adapt and evolve (sometimes in "bad" ways).

Where the limit is I can't quite be sure.

I wager that Shepard ceases to exists. Then dependent of whether his new representation can further evolve or not I'd say there is possibility of corruption or "errors".

The latter seemed implied in the dialogue to me.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlanC9 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
The Shepalyst has absolute power and authority over everyone. It answers to no one. It's the closest thing to a literal god. 

No, it today's world, there aren't people like that. No one has absolute power, and everyone answers to someone else.

Things never end well when one person tries to put themselves above everyone else. 

Never? There have been some pretty successful absolute monarchs.

And even when they do go bad, they rarely go as bad as the what some people argue the alternatives would be.

[Auztin]

He becomes an AI.It would be a long time before he ever lose his mind.Nobody is able to hold all that power & expect to hold all that power in control.Start a new cycle?Probably not.Start losing his mind & send Reapers to start a war?Yep.Paragon or Renegade someone can't have all that power for long time & expect to keep cool..

[fr33stylez]

I still don't get the purpose of Control, like what is the goal?

If you believe in the Catalyst's unsubstantiated claims, then Control is even a worst option than Destroy. At least in Destroy, you're killing off all synthetics and 'delaying' the eventually tech singularity - in Control, synthetics are still around and it's presumed ShepGod ended the harvest solution.

So what next? Shepard's not solving the alleged problem, but she just wanted to play with Reapers?

Or is the only reason people pick this option is from a strictly gameplay perspective - since your Allies all survive in this ending (and that whole galaxy doesn't get Cyborg'd)?

[UrgentArchengel]

We've no way of knowing. It's all head canon at this point, and time. I didn't choose it because I just didn't trust it. An A.I. with "my" memories, and thoughts uploaded onto it. Will it start the cycles? Maybe not the same cycles, but Sheplyst might start something similar over time. Who is to say it can't just erase those precious memories, and thoughts? It's all speculation, and Head canon for now. For now, I'm going with my gut, and continue to go with my slight head canon destroy.

[xBLAKx Skytop]

For some reason, whenever I think of Control this quote from The Jackal (Far Cry 2) comes to mind: "So we've got new men in office. Now what do you think's going to happen? You already know, the whole world knows. First they'll take everything they can get their hands on; rob the banks, the stores. Then the men will be lined up against the wall and shot. They'll chop the children's arms off and cut the tendons in their necks. And the women... It's a ******* disease is what it is. It's a cancer, you see it. They can't get enough. They just take and take until it kills them. And once they're gone, someone else takes their place and they're diseased too. Every cell is infected. And the longer you stay the deeper the virus goes. In the end, nobody will be left. Just the disease."