22 réponses à ce sujet

[Rayne Tempura]

Dear BioWare

I am not sure if this is the appropriate forum for this post, but seeing as how it concerns all future games, I thought perhaps it wouldn't be wrong of me to post here. Let me start off by saying I adore your company and I love your games. Like most people, I was upset by some choices you guys made, but that hasn't made me less of a fan. What I would really love to see from you in the future is... stop making a canon version of your stories. Your games are designed in such a wonderful way that the player gets to create his/her own character and experience their very own story by making a myriad of unique choices. When you turn around and make a canon version of that experience, it takes away the value of my experience.

Not to mention, I do not think these video games need to be books or comics. Creating books and comics about other characters and aspects of the universe is one-hundred percent awesome and everyone loves that, especially those of us writing fanfiction and other stories set in that universe. However, a solid story based on what you already told us through the game that turns around and solidifies events to have gone a certain way... that is not okay.

I understand if it must be done in certain universes, such as Star Wars,  but when they are worlds of your own devising, I see no reason to cement anything about it except the overarching plot. A warden killed the archdemon. Shepard stopped the reapers. I'm not sure if you were required by TSR or WotC or whoever was in charge at that time to create a canon version of the Baldur's Gate saga or not, but it happened and it was, frankly, horrible. Not to mention, making canon alienates in some way a portion of your audience. I'm a girl and my primary playthrough is always as a female, so when something gets turned canon and gender gets decided, it's almost always a male. I am not suggesting sexism is at work or anything, or that I'd be happy if one or two heroes were females. That's not it at all. I'd be happy if canon was taken away completely.

I really have no intention of ranting about my opinions or belittling someone else's choices, and if that is what came out then I am truly sorry I was unable to present my side in a respectful manner. I just wanted to say that, from my perspective, the stories are wonderful as they are. Every time you turn something from the game into canon, I feel like I lose pieces of my own experience, like you gave me this wonderful story and are now taking it away as it happened for me. So, in the future, please consider changing how you canonize your stories.

Thanks very much for your time,
Rayne

[killswitch423]

Nice post, but FYI it's been stated numerous times that the books and comics are only one "possibility" or things to happen. If something in the comic or book clashes with your playthrough, the game events take precedent.

[David Gaider]

Rayne Tempura wrote...
Not to mention, I do not think these video games need to be books or comics. Creating books and comics about other characters and aspects of the universe is one-hundred percent awesome and everyone loves that, especially those of us writing fanfiction and other stories set in that universe. However, a solid story based on what you already told us through the game that turns around and solidifies events to have gone a certain way... that is not okay.

How do any of the books or comics "solidify events to have gone a certain way"?

Wynne is alive in DA: Asunder. If she died in your game, she'll still be dead in future games... and the events of DA: Asunder will either never have happened or have happened in a different fashion. The events of the comics and novels do not dictate what occurs or has occurred in your personal game continuuity... and isn't that what you mean by "canon"?

Modifié par David Gaider, 14 janvier 2013 - 10:24 .

[killswitch423]

See?

And oh hi Mr. Gaider. How is your day going? You probably don't get asked that enough

[Wulfram]

Damn, I thought this was going to be about the Qunari's gunpowder weapons.  It seems even when it's spelt correctly I can't read it correctly.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 janvier 2013 - 08:37 .

[Althix]

Hmmm... let say in gw wh40k universe there is some rules about what canon and what is not. There is also list of products content of which can be considered as canon.
Is there something similar in DA setting? i think not.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 14 janvier 2013 - 08:51 .

[Rayne Tempura]

If it's true that there is no set canon version of Mass Effect or Dragon Age, then I have been horribly misinformed and I apologize. It's likely that I jumped to conclusions based on what I'd heard and what happened with the Baldur's Gate saga (which is, in my opinion, the best series in the history of games), but I realize that BioWare may not have had anything to do with that. In the past, I've read things that seemed, at the time anyway, like credible sources that talked of "canon" versions of Mass Effect and Dragon Age, and was really surprised.

To have books and comics that flush out the universe is wonderful. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. And things such as Wynne being alive in a book whether or not she was dead in a person's playthrough is not what I meant as canon, so I'm terribly sorry for the confusion. I misunderstood what was actually out there.

Overall, I was really misinformed, I think, so I'm sorry for starting something. Please feel free to delete this entire debacle!

[Spedfrom]

Hmm I thought comics weren't canon, but that books actually were. I'm reading through DA: Asunder at the moment and was expecting all of it to be canon in preparation for DA3. Well, my Wynne didn't die in DA:O so I'm good to go with this version of events.

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

Wynne is alive in DA: Asunder. If she died in your game, she'll still be dead in future games... and the events of DA: Asunder will either never have happened or have happened in a different fashion. The events of the comics and games do not dictate what occurs or has occurred in your game continuuity... and isn't that what you mean by "canon"?

As long as you're here... is there any way I can get you to comment on the canonicity of the prequel novels? It doesn't seem as if players mention this very often, being more concerned with conflicts with their own games, which as you've explained, isn't an issue.

As is mentioned in this thread about the Architect, he says and does some things in The Calling that don't exactly jive with DAA, so which is "true"? Or are they both true in that in DAA he never goes into much detail about anything, whereas in The Calling there are more involved conversations.

This could be used with any of the various events or situations in the first two novels: whether Loghain loved Rowan (this actually might be mentioned in DAO, but I've never spared him to find out), Maric's "deal" with Flemeth in The Stolen Throne; or the First Enchanter's actions in The Calling, and other things.

[David Gaider]

nightscrawl wrote...
As long as you're here... is there any way I can get you to comment on the canonicity of the prequel novels? It doesn't seem as if players mention this very often, being more concerned with conflicts with their own games, which as you've explained, isn't an issue.

The two prequel novels are canon-- there is nothing for them to conflict with.

And it is fine to assume that, if your particularly playthrough matches up with the events depicted in Asunder or the comics, those  events occurred in the way they're portrayed and will be treated as such in future games. If your particular playthrough does not, then those events either happened differently or not at all. In a game we have the luxury of that kind of variability. In either case, you'll only see how it works once DA3 comes out.

[LobselVith8]

N7_killswitch wrote...

Nice post, but FYI it's been stated numerous times that the books and comics are only one "possibility" or things to happen. If something in the comic or book clashes with your playthrough, the game events take precedent.

It's likely Rayne Tempura never saw those particular comments (regarding canon and the comics, as well as the recent novel).

[duckley]

Rayne Tempura wrote...

Dear BioWare

I am not sure if this is the appropriate forum for this post, but seeing as how it concerns all future games, I thought perhaps it wouldn't be wrong of me to post here. Let me start off by saying I adore your company and I love your games. Like most people, I was upset by some choices you guys made, but that hasn't made me less of a fan. What I would really love to see from you in the future is... stop making a canon version of your stories. Your games are designed in such a wonderful way that the player gets to create his/her own character and experience their very own story by making a myriad of unique choices. When you turn around and make a canon version of that experience, it takes away the value of my experience.

Not to mention, I do not think these video games need to be books or comics. Creating books and comics about other characters and aspects of the universe is one-hundred percent awesome and everyone loves that, especially those of us writing fanfiction and other stories set in that universe. However, a solid story based on what you already told us through the game that turns around and solidifies events to have gone a certain way... that is not okay.

I understand if it must be done in certain universes, such as Star Wars,  but when they are worlds of your own devising, I see no reason to cement anything about it except the overarching plot. A warden killed the archdemon. Shepard stopped the reapers. I'm not sure if you were required by TSR or WotC or whoever was in charge at that time to create a canon version of the Baldur's Gate saga or not, but it happened and it was, frankly, horrible. Not to mention, making canon alienates in some way a portion of your audience. I'm a girl and my primary playthrough is always as a female, so when something gets turned canon and gender gets decided, it's almost always a male. I am not suggesting sexism is at work or anything, or that I'd be happy if one or two heroes were females. That's not it at all. I'd be happy if canon was taken away completely.

I really have no intention of ranting about my opinions or belittling someone else's choices, and if that is what came out then I am truly sorry I was unable to present my side in a respectful manner. I just wanted to say that, from my perspective, the stories are wonderful as they are. Every time you turn something from the game into canon, I feel like I lose pieces of my own experience, like you gave me this wonderful story and are now taking it away as it happened for me. So, in the future, please consider changing how you canonize your stories.

Thanks very much for your time,
Rayne

I appreciate your comments and they are nicely written, but  personally I love the books (not so much the comics). While I appreciate making choices in the game, having a canon doesnt really bother me.
The books have simply added to my overall enjoyment and understanding of the game. They have given  further depth to characters and put lore into context for me. Poor Bioware, there are so many diverse opinions, wants, and preferences, it is truly hard to give all of us fans what we want!

And PS - Mr Gaider - keep the stories coming!

Modifié par duckley, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:55 .

[AlexanderCousland]

David Gaider wrote...
How do any of the books or comics "solidify events to have gone a certain way"?

Wynne is alive in DA: Asunder. If she died in your game, she'll still be dead in future games... and the events of DA: Asunder will either never have happened or have happened in a different fashion. The events of the comics and novels do not dictate what occurs or has occurred in your personal game continuuity... and isn't that what you mean by "canon"?

Mr. Gaider,

In your second post you mention (paraphrasing) that It' s safe to assume that things have gone the same way as the comic' s if certain character' s are alive or you made certain descisions that match with the story of the comics or book' s.

^ That is the answer to the question you posed to the OP.

I agree with the OP on the premise that the comic' s alienate certain portions of your audience.

Specifically because you use character' s that are subject to our playthrough' s. Example, Some people loved Alistair and other' s Loathe the guy.  So when you make a piece of Lore that essentially say' s, "Im my brain Alistair is King", what you have done is make people feel like they' ve done  the wrong thing if they choose otherwise. You're probably like "Why? your personal game continuity...blah blah"... This is Why, here on the forum' s your word is affectionately considered the "Word of Gaider" which means whatever you say is like the bible around here dude. So when you make something people take it as "Word of Gaider", if you do it then  that' s how it' s supposed to be.  I love the world you created, Dragon Age is amazing, I have high hopes for DA3, but Im hoping you understand why some people feel that way about the comic' s.

[Noviere]

I like the comics/books... But then, they haven't contradicted my "main" playthrough yet. I guess I made the predictable choices while playing(ie: Wynne survives, Alistair is king).

[Maria Caliban]

I kicked Alister out on his ass and he became a drunk in my playthrough. I have no problem with him becoming King in the comics. It doesn't affect my story or make me feel that my PC's decisions were the wrong ones.

[Knight of Dane]

I love both the books and the comics. Especially Stolen Throne was my best Dragon Age experience since Origins.

I never considered any of what's presented in either books or comics to be canon, I have abolute faith that bioware does treat most of my choices as it deserves.

[RepHope]

Mr. Gaider's comment has set my mind at ease. I'm going to kill Wynne now so I can be ready for DA3. (Insert generic evil laugh)

[Celene II]

David Gaider wrote...

Rayne Tempura wrote...
Not to mention, I do not think these video games need to be books or comics. Creating books and comics about other characters and aspects of the universe is one-hundred percent awesome and everyone loves that, especially those of us writing fanfiction and other stories set in that universe. However, a solid story based on what you already told us through the game that turns around and solidifies events to have gone a certain way... that is not okay.

How do any of the books or comics "solidify events to have gone a certain way"?

Wynne is alive in DA: Asunder. If she died in your game, she'll still be dead in future games... and the events of DA: Asunder will either never have happened or have happened in a different fashion. The events of the comics and novels do not dictate what occurs or has occurred in your personal game continuuity... and isn't that what you mean by "canon"?

This makes me happier then you can possibly know <3

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...
As long as you're here... is there any way I can get you to comment on the canonicity of the prequel novels? It doesn't seem as if players mention this very often, being more concerned with conflicts with their own games, which as you've explained, isn't an issue.

The two prequel novels are canon-- there is nothing for them to conflict with.

And it is fine to assume that, if your particularly playthrough matches up with the events depicted in Asunder or the comics, those  events occurred in the way they're portrayed and will be treated as such in future games. If your particular playthrough does not, then those events either happened differently or not at all. In a game we have the luxury of that kind of variability. In either case, you'll only see how it works once DA3 comes out.

Well there does seem to be a dating error in the novels vs what is said in Origins.

The Calling seems to happen at about 9:18 Dragon Age based on the narrative of the novels(The Calling apparently happened 15 years after The Stolen Throne which ended its narrative in 9:03 Dragon), when in 9:30 Dragon, in Origins, people say Maric let the Grey Wardens come back twenty years ago. That would be 9:10 Dragon, eight years before the novels say.

So if Alistair really is Fiona's child, he should only be 12 years old in Origins, which would make any who romance him a pedophile(It might also explain his somewhat childish behavior though. lol) I could believe him to be 20 years old, but 12 pushes it a little. Unless Maric has a third child or Alistair has that aging disease.

Also Duncan was described as 18 in The Calling, so that would make him only 30 years old in Origins. And he looks at least 40.

Eamon and Teagan are described as, IIRC, 15 years old and 8 years old in The Stolen Throne. That would make them only 45 and 37 in Origins. And to be fair, Eamon seems to be a bit older than that.

Other small things. . .

In The Stolen Throne, according to the narrative people know why the Grey Wardens were exiled(the coup attempt.) But According to Warden's Keep DLC, people lost that knowledge because of the civil war after King Arland's death. Well at least that's what Levi says.

After reading about Utha's hand-to-hand combat style, its sad that we didn't get to see it in Awakening. And I wonder why she has hair was she was described as bald and ghoulish in TC. A wig?

Duncan's ethnic lineage is also different. In Origins, he's supposedly has Anders/Tevinter in him, but in The Calling, he's Orlesian/Rivaini.

Note: This is in no way criticism or toxic posting. Just something I've wondered about.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 15 janvier 2013 - 11:31 .

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

The two prequel novels are canon-- there is nothing for them to conflict with.

Thanks!

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Well there does seem to be a dating error in the novels vs what is said in Origins.

There is a reason I didn't specifically mention dates, and Fiona's child is one of those reasons, since I actually wanted him to answer the question rather than be vague.

He has said in the past that there is some date conflict between the novels and DAO. While dates are a part of canon yes, IMO events, people, states of reality, and various happenings are also a part of canon, perhaps even more important, and that is what I focused on.

David Gaider wrote...

Oy.

Honestly, I've avoided responding about this before because it's the one thing that still bugs me.

"The Calling" was edited really quickly. Unfortunately I noticed the mistake in the dates when we'd already moved into the proofing process, and apparently that meant that there was more than one version of the manuscript in the editors' hands. I don't know how it works, but I imagine that's responsible for the changes not all migrating into the final version (and apparently the version the OP has uses something different, as well, which is awesome).

Cailan is supposed to be five years old in "the Calling". Rowan died two years before. He is twelve in the epilogue for "the Stolen Throne".

The blame is really mine for not noticing until the last minute and then frantically trying to slip two sets of changes in. So I've resigned myself that the original dates (even though I don't think they're consistent throughout the published version) will simply have to stand. I suppose it's a niggling detail, though I still do bang my head on the desk every time someone brings it up. But that's what you get for writing so quickly I guess.

Sorry for the confusion.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 15 janvier 2013 - 02:21 .

[nightscrawl]

FreshIstay wrote...

Specifically because you use character' s that are subject to our playthrough' s. Example, Some people loved Alistair and other' s Loathe the guy.  So when you make a piece of Lore that essentially say' s, "Im my brain Alistair is King", what you have done is make people feel like they' ve done  the wrong thing if they choose otherwise. You're probably like "Why? your personal game continuity...blah blah"... This is Why, here on the forum' s your word is affectionately considered the "Word of Gaider" which means whatever you say is like the bible around here dude. So when you make something people take it as "Word of Gaider", if you do it then  that' s how it' s supposed to be.  I love the world you created, Dragon Age is amazing, I have high hopes for DA3, but Im hoping you understand why some people feel that way about the comic' s.

I don't really think those two things are related though.

He, and all of the writers, are certainly allowed to have a preference as far as story choice goes. The post-game-play novels (Asunder and onward *fingers crossed*) and comics are his preference for the story path. If you're not interested at all in ancillary material, you're completely able to skip it as they are going to introduce any relevant material from those to the player on the assumption that they were never read.

Additionally, as he has attempted to explain numerous times, "Word of Gaider" does not apply to the novels and comics. If Alistair is a drunk, he stays a drunk. If Wynne is dead, she stays dead. If players are continuing to have an issue with it that is their problem, because DG, nor any other dev, hasn't said otherwise.


And just to head this off, don't trot out Anders or Leliana (not directed at you, Fresh). Those were game characters, introduced in a game environment, and brought back into the game environment if dead, despite player choice. That is a separate argument, and has nothing to do with novel/comic canon versus game canon.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 15 janvier 2013 - 05:05 .

[LinksOcarina]

I think people are confusing outside works as official canon when in most cases, they are not. Several times I have heard people mention Asunder as something canonical to the events of the game world, and yet it would be impossible for this to be true because of the fates of Wynne and Shale. The same with the The Silent Grove and Those who Speak Comics concerning game characters.

I think the point is that the world has no real canon other than us creating it as we go. The in-game canon is what we make of it, and that makes the supplement material either secondary canons, or just non-canon.