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[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Oberkaiser wrote...

"I could, in fact, happily have a game without any romances at all..."

Oh no he di'int.

A Bioware game without romances would be, at this moment, the only way to guarantee I would pre-order their game any amount of months in advance. 

When was the last time BioWare made a game without romances?

Baldur's Gate 1. Late 1998.


Or... well, I guess Sonic Chronicles, if you want to get technical. Which was... around 2003? Maybe? But every RPG they've done has had romances except Baldur's Gate, to my knowledge.

Still, I think the romance options have taken over. I'd rather see political infighting, military/command structure tensions, real reacitvity in actual choices (outside of my sexual partner) in story-telling rather than more "you complete me" scenes that make rom-com movies look like Macbeth. 

I'm not trying to knock the writing team. Its just that I think fan demand for these things has spirlaed to an unacceptable level. Bioware is literally a few degrees of separation from being a AAA development dating simulator.

Clearly, you've never played a dating sim.

I have. They usually involve you pumping certain stats, leveling up, going through conversation options where choosing the best options result in approval and involves giving gifts. 

Strip out the parts of DA2 that remain the exact same no matter what your playthrough choices are and the only reason to replay (to me) are elements that strongly resemble this game model.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 janvier 2013 - 03:04 .

[slimgrin]

He sure knows how to contradict himself. He hates romance, but prattles on about how it should be done, with some admirable ideas I might add...but that's not what the fans want, so they won't do it.

O_o

Modifié par slimgrin, 15 janvier 2013 - 03:19 .

[Renmiri1]

schebobo wrote...

Just saw this article on eurogamer about David Gaider's thoughts on romance in bioware games 
** snip **
Thoughts??

1) Why I buy BW Games and any game

While I respect David Gaider's and Bioware's goals, I have to confess that I buy Bioware games mostly because of the romance aspect.  Having said that, I never played a video game with romance until ME3 came out, and never missed it.


For gameplay, story and such I like other franchises. Let me explain why 

1.1) Story and RPG 
I love RPG but my favorites were JRPG with it's breathtaking graphics and music. Western game companies are so many years behind on that! Compare a Skyrim babe with Yuna from FFX. That game is 12 years old and runs miles around any 3D graphics done by BW or others. Story archs are also decades ahead of BW: The cycle of destruction with a giant squid reaping all every thousands years ? Was in FFX and was resolved much better. Even their space kid was better!!  (Granted Shepard makes a much less annoying main PC than Tidus)

1.2) Action / Combat / Gameplay

 Never was much of an FPS fan so would never play ME if it wasnt for the rpg and romance elements. For the magic and sword slashing I raid on WoW once a week now and have raided 3 x / week for 2-3 years.

1.3) Romance / Friendship
Bioware's games are unique and amazing on the way they make you feel for the companions and even make some of them your LI. The Witcher is awful, with it's objetification of sex as a card collection game. Fun for same, I imagine teenage fanboys like the "nailed that one" aspect of it. To me it is like hearing someone scraping their nails on a blackboard. But then I'm a woman so seeing the female npcs reduced to notches on someone's bedpost has always irked me.

ME2 blew me away. The LI and companions were so much more than "test driving" a PC that you have no input on. I immediately bought ME1, DA and DA2, I had seen a new fun way to game and I wanted more of it. I'm eagerly awayting for DA3! I want and expect and more of the moral / personal choices that were so much fun to agonize over on all those games. Am I being a fool / entitled player ? Perhaps

You will notice I left out ME3. I romanced Thane on ME2 and then got suckerpunched on ME3. I absolutely agree with David Gaider on Thane: If you have no intention on making a charater into a LI then it is better to not do it at all. Thane should never have been an LI.  If the DA writers have no interest or time to write a good Cullen romance on DA3 then please just leave him be. Cullen fans may think they prefer something instead of nothing, but trust me on this guys and gals. You know how people complain about Anders change from DAA to DA2 ? Imagine if he was an LI in DAA . Losing an LI would hurt a lot more than losing a friend. I know, I've been there. And didn't even get a lousy T-Shirt for my effort 

2) Player free time
Wow hardcore raiding left me little time for any other game. I did manage to squeeze a small obsession with minecraft, skyrim and some other good SP games here and there, plus some 3D modding and building, a fan web site , a blog, tumblr, twitter and my RL in between raids. I'm not in any way unique. Truth is nowadays the newest "first world problem" is way too many options on what videogame to play in your (supposedly) free time Poor us!!!  

What that means though is that we tend to try to "maximize the fun" we have on our free time, by sticking to tried and trusted franchises and game replays. And avoid the ones that made us want to throw away the controler thru the window. Fairly or not, I will look for more romance on DA3, if it turns out that DA3 is akin to ME3 or the Witcher, then I'll probably give up on the franchise. That is just me, trying to get the best "bang" for my bucks and my free time.

Maybe Bioware isn't the place I should be looking for romance in games. Maybe Harlequin Romances will join the digital age and make some honey dripping, bodice ripping RomanceRPG games someday  There sure seems to be a market for it 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 15 janvier 2013 - 04:49 .

[Biotic Sage]

How about a "romance option" where the NPC is not interested in you at all? As in, they just aren't attracted to you in the slightest.

Hawke: (Flirt) So, would you like to have dinner sometime?
NPC: Look, Hawke, I don't want to lead you on. I'm not attracted to you. I don't think of you that way, and I'm just not really into it.

Now that's realism!

[Renmiri1]

Biotic Sage wrote...

How about a "romance option" where the NPC is not interested in you at all? As in, they just aren't attracted to you in the slightest.

Hawke: (Flirt) So, would you like to have dinner sometime?
NPC: Look, Hawke, I don't want to lead you on. I'm not attracted to you. I don't think of you that way, and I'm just not really into it.

Now that's realism!

Mordin romance is like that 

[Nightdragon8]

Blackrising wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Adding different types of romance:  romances where your
partner cheats on you, romances where the character is already involved
in another relationship

Gimme, Gaider.

LI is already involved in another relationship?
Gimme gimme gimme.

LI cheats on you? OH GOD NO. WHY. NO.
(That would break my fragile little heart! ;_

the sad part is thats how I feel about it too...

Tho if the LI partner is a Douch then all guilt would be gone... however it would make other playthoughts harder not to pick said person just to get them out of that relationship. Ah, so why don't you make that LI relationship 'decent' if MC is going for someone else or none at all. Or allow to break up the relationship but not get commented to the relationship.

[Celene II]

The problem with making only some people romanceable and only too a specific type is that they will always make the best coolest NPCs either unromanceable or a very rare type.

I disagree with most of the ideas expressed in that article. I think that most of the companions SHOULD be romanceable and by everyone. What i think needs to change is how easy it is to romance some of them, some are so easy you can accidentally romance them.

[Addai]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Bioware's games are unique and amazing on the way they make you feel for the companions and even make some of them your LI. The Witcher is awful, with it's objetification of sex as a card collection game. Fun for same, I imagine teenage fanboys like the "nailed that one" aspect of it. To me it is like hearing someone scraping their nails on a blackboard. But then I'm a woman so seeing the female npcs reduced to notches on someone's bedpost has always irked me.

If people took them as they were meant to be, lighthearted, a cheap stand-in for fade to black cutscenes, and totally optional (as is the mantra around here), that would help.  You don't actually have to bang anyone.  I roleplayed Geralt and he was pretty tame.  If you were collecting cards, that was your choice.

I also don't find the obsessiveness on BSN about who, when, where, how many, in what position, how often and how rough to bang one's chosen blob of pixels to be very mature, either.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 janvier 2013 - 05:47 .

[Nightdragon8]

Celene II wrote...

The problem with making only some people romanceable and only too a specific type is that they will always make the best coolest NPCs either unromanceable or a very rare type.

I disagree with most of the ideas expressed in that article. I think that most of the companions SHOULD be romanceable and by everyone. What i think needs to change is how easy it is to romance some of them, some are so easy you can accidentally romance them.

This. I mean IMO DA:O had a pretty good way, I mean think about it you had to talk to the people to romance them... What a novel concept.

Same with ME1 Had to spend time to get to know them. However granted on my first playthough of ME1 got ninjamanced by Liara. But oh well.

IMO DA2, other than the really upfront nature of Anders in the start. I dunno the romances seemed kind of dull. Got there Friendship or Rivalry to max did the deed then you where in a relationship... with no real dietals as to how there relationship is really going. Tho I grant you this isn't a dateing sim.

However I think if anything if they could put in a "dating sim" like Visual Novel quilty romance, in a game, I think Bioware is the company to do it.

[themikefest]

definitely looking forward to DA:I with what might or might not happen with the romances.
I wonder if there will be a scene where a companion leaves your party if you pick someone else for a LI instead of him/her.

Modifié par themikefest, 15 janvier 2013 - 06:00 .

[Biotic Sage]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

How about a "romance option" where the NPC is not interested in you at all? As in, they just aren't attracted to you in the slightest.

Hawke: (Flirt) So, would you like to have dinner sometime?
NPC: Look, Hawke, I don't want to lead you on. I'm not attracted to you. I don't think of you that way, and I'm just not really into it.

Now that's realism!

Mordin romance is like that 

Haha so it is.  I wasn't aware because I was never inclined to try to romance salamanders.  Now I know!

[Daerog]

Also, Aveline could be flirted with, but didn't seem to be noticed...

[SilentK]

Oki, lied earlier. Said that I thought that it was at a good lvl now but honestly I would like a little bit more =)

The connections to my companions is one of the big reasons why I am spending pretty much all my gaming-money on BioWare. Because after playing for a while in a world without companions I start to feel disconnected from it. Don't know how it happens but I do know that BioWare games are the only ones that I keep coming back to and that I truly truly enjoy the romances.

[Knight of Dane]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

How about a "romance option" where the NPC is not interested in you at all? As in, they just aren't attracted to you in the slightest.

Hawke: (Flirt) So, would you like to have dinner sometime?
NPC: Look, Hawke, I don't want to lead you on. I'm not attracted to you. I don't think of you that way, and I'm just not really into it.

Now that's realism!

Mordin romance is like that 

Elf girl on top of sundermount act 3 is like that.
Aveline romance is almost like that.
Varric romance is almost like that.
Sten romance is like that.
Oghren romance is like that.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 15 janvier 2013 - 10:33 .

[AstraDrakkar]

If "more" means more interaction with your LI, then I'm all for it. DA2 was far too limited in that aspect.

[Biotic Sage]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

How about a "romance option" where the NPC is not interested in you at all? As in, they just aren't attracted to you in the slightest.

Hawke: (Flirt) So, would you like to have dinner sometime?
NPC: Look, Hawke, I don't want to lead you on. I'm not attracted to you. I don't think of you that way, and I'm just not really into it.

Now that's realism!

Mordin romance is like that 

Elf girl on top of sundermount act 3 is like that.
Aveline romance is almost like that.
Varric romance is almost like that.
Sten romance is like that.
Oghren romance is like that.

In my defense, with my original comment I was (jokingly) implying (or attempting to imply) that the spurning love interest would be someone who seems like an obvious love interest: i.e. (Traditionally) Sexy, eligible, main companion character, and human(ish).  Varric is a hairy dwarf, which is definitely sexy in my opinion, but most girls these days don't go for that.  Sten is a creepy giant with a penchant for massacre.  Oghren is, again, a (even more) hairy dwarf.  And not even a couth hairy dwarf.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 15 janvier 2013 - 11:02 .

[fchopin]

I have to say that i agree with everything Mr. Gaider said.

+1 to Mr. Gaider.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I think it was well-written, even if it did ruffle some folks' feathers. I do think it's possible to write romantic content (tone can vary wildly) for every major NPC without turning it into some sort of creepy sex-bot simulator, but NOT given the current resource restraints on BioWare's games. That would require a ridiculous amount of writing and branching that I'd honestly rather see in the main plot.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I think it was well-written, even if it did ruffle some folks' feathers. I do think it's possible to write romantic content (tone can vary wildly) for every major NPC without turning it into some sort of creepy sex-bot simulator, but NOT given the current resource restraints on BioWare's games. That would require a ridiculous amount of writing and branching that I'd honestly rather see in the main plot.

Here, here.

[esper]

Biotic Sage wrote...

How about a "romance option" where the NPC is not interested in you at all? As in, they just aren't attracted to you in the slightest.

Hawke: (Flirt) So, would you like to have dinner sometime?
NPC: Look, Hawke, I don't want to lead you on. I'm not attracted to you. I don't think of you that way, and I'm just not really into it.

Now that's realism!

Aveline, Varric... All the non-Li's. But those to get bonus points for having flirts.

I guess Donnic too, at least he told my Hawke that he wasn't interested (Even to be fair, my Hawke wasn't exactly interested in him either)

[esper]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I think it was well-written, even if it did ruffle some folks' feathers. I do think it's possible to write romantic content (tone can vary wildly) for every major NPC without turning it into some sort of creepy sex-bot simulator, but NOT given the current resource restraints on BioWare's games. That would require a ridiculous amount of writing and branching that I'd honestly rather see in the main plot.

I mostly agree. I am fine with four Li, the fact that they exist means I can make my main character feel more real and develop intimate bonds which I appreciate, but I will rather have four LI well developed than a lot underdeveloped and I don't want to too much branching resoures away from the main plot.

In fact I could live with two LI's (one of either gender).

Modifié par esper, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:29 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

esper wrote...
but I will rather have four LI well developed than a lot underdeveloped and I don't want to too much branching resoures away from the main plot.

In fact I could live with two LI's (one of either gender).

Totally this.  ME suffered from having lots of LIs, some of them badly underdeveloped.  If you're going to go through the bother of making a character a romance, at least do it well, or otherwise not at all.

As for having only 2 LIs, I'm of two minds.  On one hand, more character depth, which is always good.  On the other hand, if I don't like them, either as characters or as LIs, I'm not getting that content.  It's not a huge loss, but still a bit of one.  More options means more likelihood that a particular LI will resonate with the player.  

[Fast Jimmy]

Ericander77 wrote...

 I think there is a definate option for no romance in the game for those few () who don't like it very much, but i think a safe route so you don't have ppl going "ooooo toooo muuuuccchhhhh" is to have an extra romance optional layer. SO the player gets a happy medium. That way:


anti-romacers are happy
mid-romancers are happy
<3<3<3ppl are happy

Its not a matter of a toggle, or players being hit with "too much romance."

Romance in BG2 was a happy accident. They made totally random, hard to come-by content that only resulted in extra text to make happen (and, I suppose, one extra item, being an optional baby you could carry around). It was so small and incidental that it was nearly like finding an Easter Egg.

The problem now is that romance content involves entire dialogues and conversation scenes rendered by animators, lines voiced by VAs, customized responses by your companions about your LI... the production costs have gone through the roof. That's true of any dialogue/conversation content, but for romances, which are simply side content fan-service, its a HUGE cost in resources, resources that could have been spent elsewhere to develop the story of the game... you know, the part of the gaming genre Bioware is known for. 

For them to devote a good chunk of their time, budget and efforts into creating virtual romances instead of crafting a better sense of reactivity to the actions that are happening in the game itself isn't just a matter of me asking for an "on/off" switch for romance content. I don't HATE romance content. I hate the place it has taken in Bioware games - namely, first and foremost to the actual main story plot in DA2 and ME3.

[die-yng]

I'd like more romance in the sense that I want deeper romances. More dialogue, more influence on the development of the romance. The person you choose as LI should be more integrated into the game, perhaps influencing the storyline at some points, Your char and her/him should have specialised conversations and banter when they are in a relationship.
They did this in parts in ME3, Where your LI says things specific to the romance in some situations, but this should be much, much more integrated into the game.

I loved mods like those for DAO, where you could embrace and kiss your LI any time, it adds to the immersion into the char and the game for me, because that is what people in love would really do.

[Estelindis]

I'm fine with the amount of romance there is.  Broadly speaking, i think romances in DA:O and DA2 were great, though it would have been nice to have Sebastian comforting Hawke after a certain family death as other romanceable characters do.  (Note, I haven't tried romancing Seb; I'm only going by the reports of those who have.)  Didn't mind not being able to romance Varric or Aveline.  Their characters played different roles in the story and not everyone should go dewy-eyed at the protagonist in that way.

I think that in ME3 romances could have had better writing quality. For a start, not all romances were treated equally. I don't mean that they all should have had the same kind of arc and resolution but that they should all have a high standard of writing and the same amount of screentime. Jacob is a prime example of how to get things wrong, as illustrated above: you cannot call him out on the ridiculousness of his excuse for cheating on you. And, honestly, I would have thought that ME3 would give ME writers the chance to break out of the painfully overused "build up the relationship and culminate in pre-final-battle sexytimes" trope. We already had that happening with the LIs in both ME1 and ME2 (not to mention oodles of other Bioware games that have done this, though thankfully DA doesn't go for this much at all). Given that relationships had already been established in ME1 and ME2, I was looking forward to some fresh writing that would take them further instead of retreading old ground.

In fairness, I did like most of the material that went into the romance arc with my Shepard's partner, Kaidan, and I like the fact that the pre-battle intimacy actually doesn't have to involve sex, it can just be a question of closenss and comfort. That distinguished it from ME1 somewhat, as did the need to rebuild the relationship due to trust issues. I still think it could have been better in some ways, and several other relationships could have been written *much* better, particularly those with ME2 squaddies who didn't join the ME3 squad. (I have some sense of how they might feel about their romances' treatment in ME3, given Kaidan's in ME2: the awfulness that was Horizon in ME2 was followed by only one mention of the relationship in subsequent DLC, namely Liara complaining him.)

TL;DR: Same amount of romances, better writing across the board for Mass Effect (not just with certain favoured characters).

Modifié par Estelindis, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:57 .