21 réponses à ce sujet

[Vuitton]

First off, thanks for a great game. You guys really put a lot into it. The voices and the atmosphere are all GREAT.

Personally, I think the elves should have had more prominent ears and more angular/beautiful features/unique hairstyles to set them apart from regular humans. You dropped the ball there but hey, it's YOUR vision of an elf, not mine. Just a suggestion though in case you ever make another game *wink*.

As for shapeshifter.
Instead of transforming into lame animals that we can fight regularly I think shapeshifters should have been a type of evoker of spirits in a way. The beasts they transform into should not be able to be found in the wild.

Here's my proposition:
There are 3 beasts you can aquire: Harpy, Griffon, and Dragon
For men you replace the first harpy with a large black cobra.

Respectively, each form represents an archetype.

The first form (Harpy/Cobra) is speed which includes high evasion, fast piercing strikes, and dibilitating type attacks (paralyze, stun, poison, drain).

The second form (Griffon) is your tank form which has a large health pool and finds way to reduce damage recieved along with empowering party members with buffs.

The last form (Dragon) would be your spellcaster type combining breath attacks with brute strength. In dragon from you focus on various elemental attacks/aoe beams to decimate your foes.

Now, here's where the evoker/summoner aspect comes in. I thought it was very interesting how wynne had her own gaurdian spirit. It would be very cool to have a class that makes a pact with a 'benevolent' spirit to combat the malicious ones. So out of the four ability squares, the first being harpy, then griffon, then dragon, the fourth one unlocks spirit infusion. Spirit infusion is the equivalent of master shapeshifter in that your forms change appearance and become much stronger.

Each form is infused with a benevolent spirit and gains new ablities along with a really cool appearance. I'll list the base appearances for each creature to give you a simple idea. 

Base appearances:
Harpy: The harpy form is restricted to female mages. She is a very voluptous creature with succulent breasts, a small muscular waist, and a beyonce booty (lol). She has a light blue tint to her skin, with sharp fangs and longs flowing crimson hair. She has the angular face of a fashion model. Her legs end in black bird feet, complete with sharp, curved raptor claws. Her arms are wings with jet black feathers. The feathers are not neat, however, but wild and menacing (not ragged looking though). Very fast and uses her flight to constantly evade foes while clawing at their eyes and using wind to debilitate.

Cobra: The cobra is covered in sharp, black scales with glowing magenta eyes. The hood around its face has sharp thorns jutting out along the perimeter. It is equipped with blade like fangs and a schimatar-like blade on its tail. Very fast creature with many debiliating bites.

Griffon: The griffon is large and muscular. It has a fiersome beak along with strong, sturdy feathers. Two golden bird feet in front and large lion legs in back (w/ long tail). Usually golden/red in color. Has ample health points and uses defensive maneuvers and knock down attacks. Can break armor and weapons to reduce damage done against it. Furthermore, the griffon is the buffer in the party and uses various war cries to amplify certain attributes.

Dragon: The dragon is not like the high dragon (SPOILER) flemeth transforms into. It is more like the dragon you fight in the werewolf lair. But, of course, this dragon should look differently and preferably more powerful. This dragon is glittering white like snow with 2 large horns on its head that curve backward (and powerful wings). The dragon can fight up front with teeth and claws but is much more useful when using breath attacks such as flame breath, ice shards, healing breath etc.

Now, the spirit infused forms would change dramatically, but would not be godlike and/or too large. I don't have any ideas for the 2nd form but i'm sure your creators will do their thing. Basically the first form retains its own origin but is enhanced... For example, the griffon might be infused with the spirit of a defender and instead of being a griffon, now it would be a man/woman with magical armor, a large shield with the griffon symbol, clawed hands, and griffon wings.

Unlike the shapeshifter class in dragon age, you would not obtain every ability just by unlocking the form. You'd have to pick individual skills for each form as your character leveled up which makes it fair. Basically, you'd have to pick the type of class you want to be as a shapeshifter. Because each form would have its own skill square of 12 skills (such as the 'archery' skill square, the '2-handed skill square' etc.) players could customize their spirits much more and wouldn't feel bad about losing their regular mage skills. Not to mention, transforming into any of those forms beats changing into a wolf... a bear.. or a frickin spider.

I really hope you take my ideas into consideration and possibly implement them as a patch. I would play the whole game over if you changed shapeshifter alone. The way i see it, you kind of already implemented my plan in the way flemeth shapeshifted into an amazing dragon. Please look into this.

Thank You,
Vuitton

--------------------------------------------
Edit: Story Implementation
As for the story:
I thought there could be certain 'points' on your map that you visit in order to talk to your form in order to acquire it. HOW you acquire it is up to the form. Maybe you simply have to talk to the harpy but you have to best the griffin in battle. And maybe the dragon gives you a puzzle to complete.

Each form could have a story in and of itself.

Harpy: Found high in the frigid frostback mountains where people don't settle. You find a harpy colony and come to find they have the gift of human speech. They're frisky, though. As you talk/persuade/intimidate you find out why they hide and ultimately get to acquire their 'essence' and transform in them.

Snake: Its lair is found deep in a grotto near the Brecilian forest. It is rarely ever seen by humans because of its camaflauge abilities which literally render it invisible. For this form you must bring it its favorite meal to lure it out into the open so you can observe it while it is uncamoflauged and you therefore gain its essence.

Griffin: You discover that there is a TINY colony of griffins (somwhere in the mountains but not in the cold..). You approach one and have to best it in battle to gain its essence but you have to choose to spare its life (that's the noble deed).

Dragon: You find a mystical pond deep in the brecilian forest where the white dragon lives. You talk with it and discover you must prove yourself in a battle of wits. First you outsmart the dragon then it tests you with a physical puzzle kind similar to the one you did to free the desire demon in Shale's extra content. After proving your wit the dragon lets you acquire its essence.

Modifié par Vuitton, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:17 .

[Vuitton]

Hmm. This was my first thread. Can someone tell me if there is a more efficient way to talk to the devs? Maybe a suggestion thread? I didn't see one.

[CID-78]

PM them, that is the most efficent way, or why not make the mod yourself then you know it will be made. devs will reject most ideas after all.

[Vuitton]

Haha.. I have NO idea how to make mods myself :/ Thanks for the advice though. I guess i'll just send it to a few of the moderators? Or is there another person i should talk to?

[Calgetorix]

I like the general idea... being able to transform into the 3 archetypes. Only being able to transform into melee animals is kind of limiting. In respect to the lore, however, I'm not sure how your suggestions are feasible. After all, Morrigan says you have to feel (or something like that) like the animal. Knowing what the griffon (an animal that went extinct 300 years earlier, I think) feels is quite hard indeed.

However, having a complete set of skills (12) for one form is something I don't like.
If you specialize too much in one form, why not choose a rogue, warrior or mage instead? The whole point of shapeshifters, in my opinion, is that they are jack of all trades, masters of none. If the tank form would out-do normal tank warriors, what is the point of having a warrior class? It would be overpowered.

Modifié par Calgetorix, 08 janvier 2010 - 08:25 .

[Vuitton]

Okay, I get you Calgetorix.

Then what would you suggest? Maybe a 8 skills then? 4 for the first form and 4 for the second form? Also, I don't understand how my shapeshifter isn't diverse. I believe by spending your points wisely you basically choose what 'other' roles your mage can become in a pinch.

If your tank dies then your shapeshifter can become a griffin. It doesn't mean the griffin is better. It will be better if you spend more time on it than your other tanks. You have to remember that the player creates his characters as he/she sees fit. Let's say you are surrounded by a bunch of enemies so you decide to transform into your harpy for added evasion and crowd control attacks.

As for the story:
I thought there could be certain 'points' on your map that you visit in order to talk to your form in order to acquire it. HOW you acquire it is up to the form. Maybe you simply have to talk to the harpy but you have to best the griffin in battle. And maybe the dragon gives you a puzzle to complete.

Each form could have a story in and of itself.

Harpy: Found high in the frigid frostback mountains where people don't settle. You find a harpy colony and come to find they have the gift of human speech. They're frisky, though. As you talk/persuade/intimidate you find out why they hide and ultimately get to acquire their 'essence' and transform in them.

Snake: Its lair is found deep in a grotto near the Brecilian forest. It is rarely ever seen by humans because of its camaflauge abilities which literally render it invisible. For this form you must bring it its favorite meal to lure it out into the open so you can observe it while it is uncamoflauged and you therefore gain its essence.

Griffin: You discover that there is a TINY colony of griffins (somwhere in the mountains but not in the cold..). You approach one and have to best it in battle to gain its essence but you have to choose to spare its life (that's the noble deed).

Dragon: You find a mystical pond deep in the brecilian forest where the white dragon lives. You talk with it and discover you must prove yourself in a battle of wits. First you outsmart the dragon then it tests you with a physical puzzle kind similar to the one you did to free the desire demon in Shale's extra content. After proving your wit the dragon lets you acquire its essence.

BUT, it would be easier if you just clicked on the skill block and instantly had the form. The story way makes it possible but also requires more effort on the players part.

Modifié par Vuitton, 08 janvier 2010 - 11:46 .

[Foe Paw]

Problem with shapeshifters, in all fantasy games BG2 and NWN series as well, is that if you make the form you shift into more powerful than your normal form why would you ever be in the normal state? Likewise, if the normal state is FAR more powerful than the shifter state, like oh I dunno a DAO mage versus a bear..., why would you shapeshift at all?



It's a very difficult balancing point tbh. Really though I think having 2 lines in the specializations would help a lot for shifters. The first could be as it is now, albeit with more exciting forms perhaps, and the second could be passives which helped your shifter. More health, evasion, dmg, shift time, abilities, whatever would be required to distinguish a shapeshifting mage from a mage who can shapeshift.

[Calgetorix]

Perhaps the griffin is not stronger than the main tank. But if it is weaker, why specialize in one form only? Oh, and I meant the default 3 forms, not your suggestions. As far as I know, they're melee with only slight differences.



I haven't got much time so I'll save this space to edit for more comments later : )

[Vuitton]

Well, you don't choose just ONE form. Every time you get an ability point for your character you get an additional ability point just for your beast skills. Now, out of the 3 forms abilities you'll have to choose ONE skill to obtain. This not only balances the game but lets the player customize the forms. Of course, the forms would start out with 1 skill at least.



Also, you're thinking of this game like an MMO. These forms don't have to 'HAVE THEIR OWN NICHE' persay. Shapeshifter is useless and unnecessary ANYWAYS. But it's a very fun way to do an old job. Maybe YOU want Alistair to be THE TANK. But i might want to use my griffin as THE TANK. Or hell I can have TWO tanks.



You're forgetting that players can choose to play however they want. You're also, at least in my eyes, being an elitist about the situation by trying to figure out "who's best at it?!".



In DOA my rogue dual wields axes. Is this the best setup ever? NO. Do i care? NO. This is an offline game and I can choose not to skill up and run around naked if I so please. I have options. And as a shapeshifter, you get options. At least with my version. With the current version you get jack crap.

[Vuitton]

@FoePaw:



No, that's not the case with my idea. A regular mage is a very powerful foe/ally. It gets a total of 52 skills it can learn and that's WITHOUT any specializations. It can attack, heal, debilitate, and buff. But guess what? First, it takes A LOT of leveling to get all of them and SECOND the PLAYER chooses how the mage specializes.



Shapeshifter is a choice and a spell. A player can CHOOSE to play as a mage and then CHOOSE to become a tank (griffin). Or they can CHOOSE to become something else. You see, the shapeshifter allows the mage to fufill another role. That's why it's special and unique because the mage can't perform as a tank as well as the griffin form which makes the griffin form desirable.



Get it? Because each form has its own assets, each form is useful.

[Vuitton]

<edit>

Modifié par Vuitton, 09 janvier 2010 - 06:49 .

[Critical_Error]

The lore in DAO talks about shifters as being normal creatures, not special extraordinary beasts.

[Vuitton]

@Critical_Error: When? Where? When flemeth transformed into the high dragon was that considered a 'normal creature'? Hmmm?

[Calgetorix]

Vuitton wrote...

Well, you don't choose just ONE form. Every time you get an ability point for your character you get an additional ability point just for your beast skills. Now, out of the 3 forms abilities you'll have to choose ONE skill to obtain. This not only balances the game but lets the player customize the forms. Of course, the forms would start out with 1 skill at least.

I am really bad at reading details sometimes so I may have missed something about your original post. I understand you will unlock all forms but having so many skills for one form is just too many.
If you take a look at the other specialisations (Arcane Warrior, Blood Mage, Spirit Healer), they only get 4 skills for their "customization". My point is, I don't want to Shapeshifter to be radically different than the other branches, only that it should allow for the mage to adapt to different situations and group setups by using the forms. He is, in any case though, still a mage, which being able to specialize too much in one form would destroy.

If they were to add Shapeshifter as a competely different class, then I would have no problems with your suggestions.

Vuitton wrote...
Also, you're thinking of this game like an MMO. These forms don't have to 'HAVE THEIR OWN NICHE' persay. Shapeshifter is useless and unnecessary ANYWAYS. But it's a very fun way to do an old job. Maybe YOU want Alistair to be THE TANK. But i might want to use my griffin as THE TANK. Or hell I can have TWO tanks.

You're forgetting that players can choose to play however they want. You're also, at least in my eyes, being an elitist about the situation by trying to figure out "who's best at it?!".

In DOA my rogue dual wields axes. Is this the best setup ever? NO. Do i care? NO. This is an offline game and I can choose not to skill up and run around naked if I so please. I have options. And as a shapeshifter, you get options. At least with my version. With the current version you get jack crap.

Hm, perhaps you are right, I am thinking in the ways of an MMO. However, that does not mean there should not be balance between the classes. That would, in my opinion, be completely immersion breaking.
So you play as the all-mighty shapeshifter while all the other lesser mages and rogues/warriors are mere followers... No, that is not what I want. I want each class to be dependant on each other in some ways. Being able to do everything myself is just... meh.

Shapeshifter, as it is now, is not so great. Why? Well, to be honest, I haven't tried it much but two things I do know are that you can neither use your spells nor do a very good job shapeshifted.
If you want to stay in the forms all the time, then not being able to use your mage spells should not be a problem. Regarding the other point; if the forms are inferior to any other mage specialization, what ways are there to improve them? Your suggestion has some truth in it but you are exactly giving them their own niche. That's not a big problem, though. If you want to be a good shapeshifter, then you would have to utilize ALL the forms in order to be successful, not just one. At least in my opinion.

I agree that it is not necessary to use the best equipment to have fun. However, poorly implemented skills/spells do keep people (me at least) from having fun because of frustration. It's beyond me why they did not use a system like in the fade at the magetower for shapeshifters. I really had fun changing forms to adapt to the different situations there. And it was instant.

Modifié par Calgetorix, 09 janvier 2010 - 06:52 .

[DJ0000]

The problem with becoming a dragon would be that you would be able to kill pretty much anything by yourself, even if you were a normal dragon rather than a high dragon. Dragons are boss level creatures so you would, as everyone says, just stay in that form all the time.



I do like your idea though, it would be much more interesting and useful. The current shapeshifter spec is absolutely useless in my opinion as staying as a spellcaster is generally infinitesimally more useful for both damage dealing and crowd control.



Mabey a drake form rather than dragon as it wouldn't be overpowered. Also, Flemeth is the only shapeshifter we know of that is powerful enough to transform into a dragon and she is an acient abomination and probably the most powerful mage in Ferelden so it wouldn't really make sense that your 20 year old mage, newly out of apprenticeship can shapeshift exactly as she can. Unless you let a demon posess you and become an abomination, kinda ruins the story though, doesn't it.

[Stitch074]

I have a few problems with your idea. First correct me if im wrong, but didnt Morrigan say something along the lines that you have to study or copy the creatures sole or body(somthing like that) so become a Griffons would be impossible because they dissapeared. Second i think i female should turn into a dragon and a male should turn into a drake.

Overall i like the idea

Modifié par Stitch074, 10 janvier 2010 - 03:44 .

[Vuitton]

@stitch074: I made up a 'story' for how you obtain your creatures.



@DJ: Well, these forms are not like regular creatures. This 'white dragon' you would transform into has high magic rating but low life and defense. The griffin has high life and defense but low magic etc. I understand you though. And I specifically said in the first paragraph that you wouldn't be able to become a high dragon.

[Stitch074]

Vuitton wrote...

@stitch074: I made up a 'story' for how you obtain your creatures.

@DJ: Well, these forms are not like regular creatures. This 'white dragon' you would transform into has high magic rating but low life and defense. The griffin has high life and defense but low magic etc. I understand you though. And I specifically said in the first paragraph that you wouldn't be able to become a high dragon.

I just noticed the storys.

[bas273]

I have a suggestion ^^



When you ask Morrigan about shapeshifting she explains that you need to study a creature to learn it's form.



The shapeshifting spells are over-powered but there are two downsides:

1) You cannot use normal spells/potions so unless you have a healer in your team you cannot regain health

2) All shapeshifting spells have a "kill X" requirement. So you need to kill the Dragon in the Brecilian Forest before you can use that spell.

[Immandel]

Op, props on the creative thinking...with that out of the way I don't think the Shape shifter specialization is need of radical changing, some small adjustments could go along way.



The first thing that comes to mind is the Cast time on the shape shifting spells, from playing a Shifter I've noticed that I tend to transform due to either being very low on mana or being surrounded by melee enemies, getting hammered by multiple enemies while you're trying to shift is pretty much a death sentence, same applies when your group's tank dies and you decided to shift to "Attempt" to keep a group of mobs or a boss under control.



The other issue is the mage being locked out of his/her spell arsenal, I can understand that to a degree, having both your cake and eating it is not very balanced game design (looks at the Arcane warrior), having said that I would at least hope to see shifters able to keep their sustained buffs while being in their respective forms.



Another point to add is the sever lack of abilities when you are in shape-shift form, it would be nice if the Bear form had Threaten and Taunt , Leap and disengage abilities for the spider would go along way too as for the swarm I cant think of an added ability but if the class designers could come up with something then it would be great if it was added =)

[Vuitton]

Hey thanks immandel.

I agree, the shapeshifter doesn't HAVE to have radical changes done to it but it would be better if it did.

Currently, I get to transform into a bear which i can fight in the wild, and spider which i fight in the wild, and a swarm of gnats. That is neither fun nor cool. Neither interesting nor magical. I just become some deadbeat, haggard, common monster. In fact one can be swatted at with a fly swatter.



A shapeshifter should be interesting. The shapes should be unique and fun. They should be capable and powerful in their own right. That is my suggestion. When you get beyond the nitpicking etc. becomming a Harpy/Cobra/Griffon/Dragon is ultimately more fun than the current shapeshifter.

[Vuitton]

For those who think my ideas break the 'story' or what have you.
Here's the official LORE of shapeshifting magic:

While the Circle of Magi would prefer that it be so, theirs is not the only tradition of magic in Thedas. Prior to the Circle’s formation, magic was either practiced by the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium or in remote areas, knowledge handed down from one generation of practitioners to the next. These “hedge mages”, as Enchanters of the Circle refer to them, or “witches” as legend would name them, do not always employ forbidden magic. Quite often their talents lie in the creation of charms, the use of curses and the ability to change their own forms.

It is this last talent that has, over the centuries, been incorporated back into the Circle. Said to have been first introduced by hedge mages that joined the Circle (perhaps by force), the path of the Shapeshifter is one that crosses the boundary between mage and warrior. Some mages see it as a form of self-mastery, while others use it as a method of survival, a physical bag of tricks that enable the mage to be unpredictable in battle.

Shapeshifters must master one form at a time, the most common ones being those that are found in the Fereldan wilds. The mighty bear is popular as are wildcats, spiders, and even birds. Legend tells of mages who mastered even more fantastical and deadly forms. To a skilled Shapeshifter, no door is impassable, no fight is unwinnable, and no terrain inhospitable as long as they know a shape that can meet the task at hand.

---------------------------------
According to this my forms are perfectly viable and it seems you DON'T have to fight a monster to become it. Also, my stories fit with this. Also, I underlined and bolded the most important part for the illiterate individuals out there. Now, doesn't it make sense for one of the main characters to be one of those legendary mages? Or would you rather be a common mage who transforms into a household pest?

Modifié par Vuitton, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:42 .