329 réponses à ce sujet

[DiebytheSword]

I'm a fan of options. If there is a grimdark ending, there should also be a happy one, but as Dean eloquently put, it needs to be earned and be choice neutral so all play styles can get to it.

[esper]

bleetman wrote...

esper wrote...

Because make a 100% happy ending where the hero loses nothing on the way irrevocably makes the other endings worthless one were the hero failed.

So people keep saying, and yet that hasn't been my personal experience with games that've done this. The times when something has gone wrong or characters died as a consequence of my actions in ways that I could've prevented had I done things differently still stand out in my memory as the absolute best parts solely because it could've also not happened. Alistair's self sacrifice at the end of my second DA:O playthrough is still my favourite worst part of that game, entirely because I failed and it's my fault it happened. To say it made that ending 'worthless' just doesn't fit with me.

Like I said, I don't especially want a super happy sunshine and bunnies ending in of itself. I want it as a contrast to whatever ending I get, to rub salt in the wound.

Why on earth should I purposely pick that option when I know what the consequence would be? I knew it was either my warden or alistair, Morrigan offered me a get out of jail of free card which consequences I obviously first would face in a later game (if at all) and was on so good friends with my warden that there was no reason not to take it.

The bolded part wouldn't haven't felt heartwrenched or torn or sad, I would just have shrugged and said to my self. Well, I kinda asked for that.

The ending would have no other closure for me other than that I as a player had made an incredible stupid decision. It is the same problem with most of the problem zones in origin where the solution of the main quest mostly falled into:

Bittersweet
Bittersweet
Obviously better.

I felt that the ending options for Origion was:

Sad (Warden death)
Sad (Alistair death)

Get out of jail for free (dark ritual)
Good, but with a cost (Loghain redeemer)

Not picking the get out of jail for free, means I have to jump through some mental roleplaying hoops that is just not fun to jump through (such as playing an idiot, or an hero with a matyr complex or something). Had the get out of jail for free card not existed then I might have felt the impact of the other endings since the good ending came with the price of Alistairs friendship, something not all my warden's would have been willing to pay.

...

To explain it better, I guess it is the same effect that stop makes me feeling sad for a tragic character if their tragedy could have been avoided if they had just done a very simple, very easy thing that would have cost them no effort, resources or anything else.

I don't know how many here play Kingdom Hearts, but I never felt sad of Master Eraques death because his death could have been avoided if he had just opened his mouth and said one thing to his students. "Dont' trust everything, Xehanort says".

Tragedy have no impact on me if it is forced through plot stupidity or myself making incredible stupid choices that could be avoided with a simple save point and reload.

Modifié par esper, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:11 .

[Herr Uhl]

I'd be satisfied if there was an unwinnable scenario where you could choose to save a few or try to save everyone and fail to save anyone. I con't recall any choice in a Bioware game where you can't just save everyone.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I've said this before in regards to ME3: I want an ending that makes sense given the plot, world, characters, and my choices in-game. It can run the gamut from grimdark to Disney to anything in between. I just don't want an ending that makes me think, "What the hell was THAT supposed to be?!"

I suppose if the game has a lot of branching, for each ending to make sense for its playthrough there would need to be multiple endings. Unless all the choices dovetail into one ending that makes sense for all (or at least most) possible playthroughs.

[Noviere]

If it suited the story? Sure.

[wright1978]

I want a variety of choices with a variety of consequences. One of those should involve personal happiness for the protaganist. I really dislike the likes of ME3 which asks you how do you want to die with the one variation where the protaganist seems to live being treated like a little loved afterthought.

I don't think there should be a perfect 'sunshine & bunnies' ending though, all endings should have some negative consequences.

[Minttymint]

Id like it to be a choice, one of many varying endings. Not all of my characters would sacrifice themselves or others for the greater good...  Some are selfish bastards.

[esper]

MinttyMint wrote...

Id like it to be a choice, one of many varying endings. Not all of my characters would sacrifice themselves or others for the greater good...  Some are selfish bastards.

If the option is between character life vs. greater good then neither ending would be a lollipop/sunshine ending, because in one ending you sacrifce character in the other the greater good.

In fact I would like to see such an ending choice free from (obvious morality)

The PC's personal happiness vs. (let's say) the stability/security/happiness or the PC's country-

That would be interesting.

Modifié par esper, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:22 .

[Zardoc]

Sure, why not. If I want mature content I look somewhere not BioWare.

[Kidd]

DarthLaxian wrote...

what's it with people today being unable to like good (as in sunshine, rainbows and such) ending (even more if my/your/our character did everything in his/her power and did not fail?) if it is not "bittersweet" (i hate bitter-sweet-chocolate by the way)???

Because it feels unrealistic for one. It doesn't feel likely that my character is a messiah who blesses and saves everything they touch. They are an extraordinary person for sure, but everybody fails at times. And often it is the failures that define us as people much more so than our successes.

But perhaps more importantly, it includes more emotions on the spectrum. You're getting feels not only in your happy glands, but also your sad buds. The more emotions I feel, the better. If everything is happy then I'm just happy. It's very one dimensional.

But if my character has killed the archdemon like she set out to do, saved the werewolves while keeping the dalish alive, met and fallen in love with an incredible man, found a legendary artifact of miraculous healing power and made it available to the world...

Then it's only fitting that she also gets dumped by her man, rejects her BFF's offer and friendship to ensure she would disappear out of her loved one's life now that he's king (and selfishly not have to live with him being with another woman, but she'd never admit that out loud), only to watch said man sacrifice himself for her in the end.

This way the scene where the crowds cheer for her get a whole new meaning. It's not just a little extra happiness from the people liking her on top of everybody else doing so. It's her being, in many ways, a broken person who did what she had to do, who can now realise she is actually a true hero when she walks out those doors. The people outside reaffirm that she saved everybody and she finds true worth there, even if just moments before she had lost everything. In a way, it's only in that moment that she truly becomes a Grey Warden; one who takes the blow of the darkspawn to ensure no innocent will ever have to.

That's a whole load of feels. And it's not one dimensional by any means.

[Dean_the_Young]

DarthLaxian wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I prefer some amount of loss among the victories. Would love if said loss wasn't set in stone, however, but rather depended on your choices. Have a "choose your poison" choice somewhere in the game so that there will always be something that can make the ending feel like it's not all perfect rainbowy roses, even if you've had a mostly "perfect" run otherwise.

sorry but i don't get it:

what's it with people today being unable to like good (as in sunshine, rainbows and such) ending (even more if my/your/our character did everything in his/her power and did not fail?) if it is not "bittersweet" (i hate bitter-sweet-chocolate by the way)???

i just do not get that...

For the more pragmatic-morality people among us, it's, well...

It's a bit of an awkward anology, but if you ever play ME3 there's this really mind-blowingly forced attempt to make Shepard out as some every-man soldier ('I'm just a soldier, Anderson', 'I'm like them', 'You've been in the trenches'), and generally trying to cast Shepard, particularly Paragon Shepard, as a super-humble, down-to-earth soldier that everyone can relate to.

This goes on at the exact same time as the supporting cast, and particularly the sympathetic (and thus respectable, because characters who aren't nice to Shepard tend to be scum bags) characters lionizing Shepard into mythic proporitions: 'only you, Shepard'. 'You're the hero.' 'If it weren't for you.' Shepard, special forces, commander of his own ship, hero of the galaxy, living legend, forgiven all transgressions and gets away with not only saving the day, but the girl (or guy) to boot.

What do you think is the implication when someone who's done all that claims that their nothing exceptional, that they're just like what you're supposed to be, except you haven't done any of that and never will? If Shepard's 'just a soldier', and you're a soldier, and if someone who is 'just a soldier' is that accomplished while you aren't...

It's a pretty insulting comparison, honestly. Not to the Shepard, but to all the other soldiers in the galaxy. It's a false equivalence of status and expectation, but an entirely unbalanced execution.


Bioware morality systems are like that, and to be honest I'm more than a bit sick of being told that the  morality systems I tend to lean towards is equally valid and appropriate (and, given discussions with most people, utilitarian ethics are pretty much an excepted aspect of the majority of most people), and yet Bioware games routinely are openly biased in terms of results and effects towards whatever the feel-good morality of the day is. The entire Mass Effect galaxy and setting is built off of Renegade-implicit pragmatism and greater-good morality, but when Paragon Shepard's unlimited idealism and forgiveness and risks never go sour, what's the point? One of the underlying basis of pragmatic-utilitarian ethics and justifications is that consequences and bad things can arise from good intentions, but in the Mass Effect universe that stops being true the moment Shepard is involved.

People with utilitarian ethics don't choose to sacrifice a few to safeguard the many because they don't value the few, or because we enjoy sacrifice: we do it because we believe it will be for the best. We believe this for many reasons, not least because this is quite frequently true in real life: a small cost in the present can prevent or mitigate a greater harm in the future, which is the foundation of everything from preventative medicine to insurance to military defenses to woeing the love of your life. Bad things eventually happen, good things can need initial costs to initiate, and foresight can help us affect them. Mitigating future costs and increasing future gains is a pretty basic point of maturity and responsibility, thanks to that virtue of foresight.

Bioware games of the last decade at least, by and large don't do this. They claim the moralities are equivalent, but short-term moral superiority (or, barring that, feel-good sympathy) is virtually always coincided with equally positive long-term effects and implications. When someone raises a prospective risk to the intended nice option: that Conner may go rampant again, that those mages you're helping go free might fall victim to stresses and abominations, that the Alliance might not have the means to stop Sovereign, that destroying the Collector Base risks gains, that even with Wrex on the top for now that curing the genophage might be a bad thing... they never materialize, or can be mitigated by simply being a nicer guy.

What's the point of foresight in a morality claimed to be equally valid, if it never pays off?

[Urzon]

Personally, I would like an ending where you, and all your companions, die while trying to defeat the bad guy. He or she (the bad guy) would go on to rule the world/country not not as evilly as you were lead to believe.

Just so I can try it once.

[Kidd]

Urzon wrote...

Personally, I would like an ending where you, and all your companions, die while trying to defeat the bad guy. He or she (the bad guy) would go on to rule the world/country not not as evilly as you were lead to believe.

Just so I can try it once.

Isn't that more or less possible in BioWare's

*spoiler*

Jade Empire
?
*end spoiler*

EDIT: The WYSIWYG on here is really terrible at times x)

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:52 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
Isn't that more or less possible in BioWare's

*spoiler*

Jade Empire
?
*end spoiler*

EDIT: The WYSIWYG on here is really terrible at times x)

Yup.  And it's awesome.  Because Master Li is an awesome villain.

[die-yng]

I want it to be like in DAO, where you had everything from your own sacrifice, to your friends sacrifice, to your LI leaving you, a political marriage and a happy outlook into the future,which as we've seen in DA2 didn't last very long, but nonetheless at the end of DAO you could be perfectly happy with your LI and everything could have turned out for the best,

A wide range from doom and gloom, to sunshine and lollipops, depending on your decisions and how well you master the game.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

And rainbows?

Something like Knights of the Old Republic where you're the big damn hero who's saved everyone without a hint of bittersweet if that's what you're looking for?

Or even something Jade Empire where you can marry the Princess, rule the land, and everyone loves you?

I'd like the ending to deliver what's the story is about. If the story is about saving the galaxy, then I expect the galaxy is saved in the end. Not the galaxy is destroyed. If the story is about destroying the galaxy, then I expect the galaxy is destroyed in the end. Not the galaxy is saved. If the story is about the mage-templar war. then  I expect the plot should tell me what, when, why, who and how from beginning until the end. Not 1/3 of it. If it's about the personal story of a hopeless character, then I expect the ending to conclude the personal story of that hopeless character. Not about the global conflict caused by insane mage. If the story is about saving the world from itself, then I expect the world is saved from itself in the end. Not the world is destroyed or end up as dream or imagination or indoctrination or hallucination or whatever craps that hint the story is not real. 

In short, the ending should focus and conclude exactly what the story is about. I don't care the ending has to be sunshine or lollipop  or rainbow or bitter or tasteless.

[Sir George Parr]

There should be an for an option for a Sunshine and loollipops ending, to even one where the protagonist survives at a cost. I just never want to go through a grim, sombre and depressing game like ME3 again, knowing that there is no light at the end of the tunnel for Shepard. In 25 years of gaming i do regard ME3 as the most depressing game i have played, thats why a good ending for shepard would have helped.
The format of the endings in DAO i liked and love to see again. The ending of DA2 i never liked always found it confusing compared to the format established in DAO.

[Kulyok]

Of course I want a happy ending. That's what it's about - a victory, a sense of achievement, a completed happy romance, a routed foe(foes) and so long and so forth.

A satisfying epilogue(for me, personally) can be as simple as that:

1) The hero is alive and well;

2) If the hero has a love interest, then they are together(and, if there is a sequel with the same hero, their romance can continue. If not, neither the hero or the love interest ever appear as NPCs);

3) It's best if the "enemy" of the game is dead or at least gone for a long time(i.e. an option to destroy or delay the Reapers, defeat or delay the Blight and so on).

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Sable Rhapsody wrote...

[quote]KiddDaBeauty wrote...
Isn't that more or less possible in BioWare's

*spoiler*

Jade Empire
?
*end spoiler*

EDIT: The WYSIWYG on here is really terrible at times x)

[/quote]
I'd say no: the third ending has pretty blatant dystopian overtones. We were never looking at a genocidal emperor, so how it's better than what we'd expect is, well...

[Blazingkats]

Yes Sunshine and Lollipops and don't forget about rainbows!

[Nerevar-as]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Personally, I would like an ending where you, and all your companions, die while trying to defeat the bad guy. He or she (the bad guy) would go on to rule the world/country not not as evilly as you were lead to believe.

Just so I can try it once.

Isn't that more or less possible in BioWare's

*spoiler*


?
*end spoiler*

EDIT: The WYSIWYG on here is really terrible at times x)

Tell that to the boy about to be crushed by the golem. 1984 in fantasy China is very evil, IMHO.

I really wanted an option to ask him how stupid he thought I was.

No problem about happy endings, but considering the setting it should require a lot of work to get it.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 15 janvier 2013 - 01:39 .

[Chromie]

I just want an ending that makes sense.

[Jonata]

Yes, I wouldn't mind Juliet Starling popping up in the ending.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, you can pretend that the Dark Ritual was some sort of ominous thing that could maybe lead to a horrible disaster. Except we all knew that wasn't going to happen.

I think getting played by Morrigai and Flemeth still can leave the player feeling powerless. I've never understood the lack of complaints about that, though. DA:O drops the whole "Wardens die to kill the archdemon!" revelation on you right at the endgame; Morrigan brings up her ritual right then.

Somehow that last minute relevation is not bad, in the eyes of most.

[Fast Jimmy]

I want an ending that is well crafted-not a "rainbow and sunshines" ending.

Well-crafted endings involve closure and discussion of consequence. It doesn't just have you shoot the last bullet/swing the last sword and then have a cutscene that lasts five minutes and then goes "Game Over." It doesn't introduce a totally arbitrary choice in the last ten minutes that eclipses the choices you made through 99% of the game (DE:HR, I'm looking at you).

A well-crafted ending goes over the choices the player made, the consequences of those choices, touches on the future/circumstances of your friends, addresses the threat that was struggled against and then offers some possibility for future conflict on the distant horizon. All NOT through one long, non-interactive cutscene. Giving control back to the player for at least a few things after the Climax is very important. DA:O did this with the throne room scene. ME1 did this with your choice of ambassador after defeating Saren/Sovereign. Give control back , even just for a few bits of dialogue.



I had a much longer post on why endings work in a thread that was deleted, unfortunately. Needless to say, endings can be well-crafted AND not supremely happy. Its just that with happy endings, devs often feel the need to have the hero take a victory lap and do all of the things I outlined above (find out about your companions, hear about some of the consequences of your earlier choices, give control to the hero to do all of this). Why devs feel the need to make sad endings that are flat, short and don't offer and sense of closure is why people hate sad endings. There is no sweet to the bittersweet. Its all either unclear or undisclosed. Which is terrible, in either happy OR sad endings.