136 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Cornhole]

Way back in 1950 Joseph Cambell wrote this nifty little book called "The Hero with a Thousand Faces". If you actually read the book you will discover it actually has very little to do with "The Hero's Journey", instead it has an academic purpose as Cambell is interested in making cultural deductions about how certain concepts within storytelling resognate with us down through the generations.

What is maddening though is everyone seems to only remember the book for this damn illustration, the template of the Hero's Journey. 

Bioware's writing is pretty good for the medium that they are in, but even with that said they are guilty of what other writers in Hollywood are guilty of. That is recycling the above illustration as a cut and paste template in order to construct a story.

I was going to write a paragraph comparing all the similarites, but i doubt you would want to read that. Instead this famous chart sums it up rather nicely.


Now I wouldn't agree with everything on here, but it does bring up some valid criticism. Your character starts from humble origins, something goes wrong and you are called to be something greater, you encounter companions and have various mentors, and you go through various trials before wrapping things up for the return.

I don't mean to say that Bioware has horrible writers or any of that, I very much admire people like Patrick Wheeks or David Gaider. And sorry Patrick Wheeks I love you, but at least in terms of layout, characters and structure most of Bioware's games really are startilingly similar. I mean even after KotoR, Bioware decided to stick with the same "four planet" system for Mass Effect.

Again sorry if I come off as abusive and snarky.

I just think that Bioware has enough skilled individuals to break away from the "Hero's Journey" template. Patrick Wheeks said people just won't understand their stories if they break away from traditional structure. That maybe true considering the responce Dragon Age 2 got. But then again David Gaider did a great job as it was a damn good game. 

Modifié par Captain Cornhole, 15 janvier 2013 - 04:24 .

[SparksMKII]

So basically you commend DA2 for breaking away from the "Hero's Journey" template. And here I thought it was about Hawke becoming the champion of Kirkwall which fits right into the "Hero's Journey" template.

Care to elaborate? And what would you have them do instead of a hero's journey then?

Modifié par SparksMKII, 15 janvier 2013 - 02:57 .

[Emzamination]

I never understood why I must be a hero. You can go through Da:o, Da2, me1, me2 as aggressive as you please, and still end up coming out the hero. Hate that.

[HolyAvenger]

Some people like a degree of cohesion and linearity in a storyline. I like the hero's journey. I don't want to play an open-world game like something from the ES series.

[Wulfram]

Looking at the wikipedia article, I think it's a shame we don't tend to really see the "Return" part of the hero's journey.

I mean, the "Departure" part fits pretty strongly and the "Initiation" part fits tolerably, partly because it's drawn pretty generically. But the "Return" really doesn't fit with any Bioware game that I can see.

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 janvier 2013 - 03:09 .

[SparksMKII]

Emzamination wrote...

I never understood why I must be a hero. You can go through Da:o, Da2, me1, me2 as aggressive as you please, and still end up coming out the hero. Hate that.

Being a hero =/= being a nice guy, Loghain is a prime example of this considering many residents of Ferelden see him as the hero that freed them from the Orlesians.

[nightscrawl]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

I just think that Bioware has enough skilled individuals to break away from the "Hero's Journey" template. Patrick Wheeks said people just won't understand their stories if they break away from traditional structure. That maybe true considering the responce Dragon Age 2 got. But then again David Gaider did a great job as it was a damn good game.

Therein lies the problem. Rock, hard place. What exactly are they supposed to do about it?

[Plaintiff]

I don't think that Bioware deliberately writes their stories in order to follow the Hero's Journey.

If you understand Campbell's work, then you know that the whole point of it was to identify certain patterns that arise in stories, without our even being aware of them. It's not something you can really "fight" against. Once you know how to identify the steps, you'll see them everywhere.  The template of the Hero's Journey is rather broad and vague, not an exact science. It allows for the possibility that certain steps in the jourrney may be rearranged, repeated, removed, or expressed metaphorically, rather than literally. Writers who try to "escape" it will likely find it impossible to do so.

The chart of Bioware cliches isn't really relevent to use of the Hero's Journey template, it's something that's more specific to them. At no point does the Hero's Journey template require that the hero have two companions, for example. That's something that Bioware decided on its own.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 janvier 2013 - 03:48 .

[Emzamination]

SparksMKII wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I never understood why I must be a hero. You can go through Da:o, Da2, me1, me2 as aggressive as you please, and still end up coming out the hero. Hate that.

Being a hero =/= being a nice guy, Loghain is a prime example of this considering many residents of Ferelden see him as the hero that freed them from the Orlesians.

That's not the point I was trying to make. My point is usually agression is synonymous with the villian or tyrant, roles that the protagonist is unable to fill, no matter how hard they struggle against the current.

[Zardoc]

Emzamination wrote...

SparksMKII wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I never understood why I must be a hero. You can go through Da:o, Da2, me1, me2 as aggressive as you please, and still end up coming out the hero. Hate that.

Being a hero =/= being a nice guy, Loghain is a prime example of this considering many residents of Ferelden see him as the hero that freed them from the Orlesians.

That's not the point I was trying to make. My point is usually agression is synonymous with the villian or tyrant, roles that the protagonist is unable to fill, no matter how hard they struggle against the current.

No it's not.

[TallonOverlord]

Emzamination wrote...

SparksMKII wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I never understood why I must be a hero. You can go through Da:o, Da2, me1, me2 as aggressive as you please, and still end up coming out the hero. Hate that.

Being a hero =/= being a nice guy, Loghain is a prime example of this considering many residents of Ferelden see him as the hero that freed them from the Orlesians.

That's not the point I was trying to make. My point is usually agression is synonymous with the villian or tyrant, roles that the protagonist is unable to fill, no matter how hard they struggle against the current.

I was actually talking to a friend of mine about this subject. Like for example in mass effect 2 when you arrive on omega, if you are playing a renegade shepard you should have the option to challenge aria for control of omega. Alot of your choices in that would make you a terrible war hero. Siding with cerberus for example to stop the collectors is fine, but after wards things wouldnt go back to business as usual. you wouldnt be reinstated so easily and it'd be a long time before the military could trust you again. I dragon age i fel the same way about my warden. I played a dwarf noble to the first time. You are tricked into a confrintation with your brother or tricked into being at his grave site. You then either have to help your brother gain the throne, or your fathers closest aide. If i had been in the same situation i would of manipulated bothsides, then when i got either paragon to give me the crown i would of named myself king and appointed one or the other of the two options to rule in my stead while i continued my journey. An option that should of been explored and never was.  So i can understand what you are saying. To be honest being of humble beginnings is a rather played out thing. It might be nice to have a fall of a king or something and have to earn back your title, or choose to be a conquorer or a savior to a land. all of which should of been viable options in DAO. I was pissed when i found out my only kingly options was if i was human noble male. Then only if i married the current queen and then only being a "consort" you have no real power. It'd be nice to have power and us it, somewhat how they did it in DA:A where you got to make descisions about the land and how the people were run in. Like if you held the nobles hostage for example.

[MissOuJ]

SparksMKII wrote...

So basically you commend DA2 for breaking away from the "Hero's Journey" template. And here I thought it was about Hawke becoming the champion of Kirkwall which fits right into the "Hero's Journey" template.

Care to elaborate? And what would you have them do instead of a hero's journey then?

I'll warn beforehand this is a bit TL;DR but allow me to get my drama freak on...

Actually, DA2 doesn't conform to the Hero's Journey template - or not all of it, anyway. If you study the structure of the DA2 plot, only the 1st Act conforms to the Hero's Journey Arch, even quite literally: Hawke + family get driven from their home (this isn't exactly Call to Adventure, but close enough) and to establish a new home need to face hardships to accomplish this (year in servitude, gathering money for the expedition), decent to the Abbyss (ie Deep Roads), defeats the Monster (Rock Wraith) and gets the prize - heaps of gold, new home, status, etc. Mix in a bit of "raggs to riches" and voila - the first act of DA2.

After that tought, all the bets are off. In Act 2 starts the - quite literal, in DA2's case - descent to madness, or chaos. Pretty much every major player in Kirkwall gets out of hand: Qunari in Act 2, Mages and Templars in Act 3 (whose animosity towards eachother has been established since Act 1).

In fact, if you look at the overal structure of DA2, it fits quite well into dramatic structure of a tragedy. Hawke, the protagonist, unknowingly puts the events in motion which end up rocking the (already unstable) foundations of Kirkwall's cosmos, and in doing so, s/he ends up throwing the whole city into chaos unintentionally, even thought it is (interrestingly enough) Anders who delivers the Point of No Return in the form of Chantry boom. Or course since we're talking about a video game with 30+h run time and a singular narrative from the point of view of a single PC it's not a perfect fit, but I think it hits pretty close to home.

Another possible narrative structure DA2 could fit into is of course the Heroine's Journey (link has an interesting analysis on that if anyone's interested) but I think I'll stop here or I'll have an essay in my hands...

/ TL;DR dramatic structure analysis over.

I agree 100% with you OP. The thing I really liked about DA2 was exactly that it didn't conform to the typical Hero's Journey tropes, and I'd like to see DA3 do something completely different yet again.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 15 janvier 2013 - 03:50 .

[AnsinJung]

Emzamination wrote...

SparksMKII wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I never understood why I must be a hero. You can go through Da:o, Da2, me1, me2 as aggressive as you please, and still end up coming out the hero. Hate that.

Being a hero =/= being a nice guy, Loghain is a prime example of this considering many residents of Ferelden see him as the hero that freed them from the Orlesians.

That's not the point I was trying to make. My point is usually agression is synonymous with the villian or tyrant, roles that the protagonist is unable to fill, no matter how hard they struggle against the current.

You could do it in the original Streets of Rage

[byzantine horse]

With the severe amount of flak they got by diverting from that formula (alot of people had alot of issues with this, even if we disergard all other problems DA2 had) I doubt Bioware will attempt that again. Which is sad.

[esper]

@MissOuJ, the heroine's journay article was well done and gave me the answer to exactly why I like da2 so much more than most other games.

Thanks for an interesting read. (Also as a student of narratives, dramatic structure analysis is always welcome ;-))

[esper]

byzantine horse wrote...

With the severe amount of flak they got by diverting from that formula (alot of people had alot of issues with this, even if we disergard all other problems DA2 had) I doubt Bioware will attempt that again. Which is sad.

Yes, it is one of the reasons I don't look foreward to da:I.

[demont0]

Wow, this is like astrology for RPG's o.0

[nightscrawl]

I don't really see what the problem with cliches is anyway. Some cliches are quite popular, like the training montage in films. The inclusion of a cliche doesn't automatically mean something is bad or was poorly produced, and can even increase its entertainment value.

[Fast Jimmy]

Bioware is free to write whatever story they please, using whatever template or format they please.

If they ignore convention, then they need to do a better job of understanding WHY it is convention. Nearly everything about the Hero's Journey template appeals to basic human psychology of progression and struggle, allowing it easy to make the one enjoying the story to connect win the character and get a sense of satisfaction from their story.

If you abandon convention and try something new just to be new, it will be poorly received. If you try something new and keep in mind the strengths of convention and make sure your new approach fills any gaps for a sense of psychological satisfaction, then you can succeed.

Bioware tried to flout convention in DA2 and ME3, to tepid response at best, disastrous at worst. It hints that the conventions used previously were not understood why they were effective, or did not reflect that understanding in trying to address people's natural, hard wired tendencies and desires when it comes to narrative structure. Which is a shame, twofold. One, because we won't see an unconventional story-telling method in their games soon, and Two, because if they are using standard templates without demonstrating a clear understanding of why they are effective, then even stories that occur within the template could fail to deliver, since it may be a result of just using the template instead of understanding what that structure provides a great framework for telling a story the audience can connect with.

[Emzamination]

Zardoc wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

SparksMKII wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I never understood why I must be a hero. You can go through Da:o, Da2, me1, me2 as aggressive as you please, and still end up coming out the hero. Hate that.

Being a hero =/= being a nice guy, Loghain is a prime example of this considering many residents of Ferelden see him as the hero that freed them from the Orlesians.

That's not the point I was trying to make. My point is usually agression is synonymous with the villian or tyrant, roles that the protagonist is unable to fill, no matter how hard they struggle against the current.

No it's not.

You missed a word.

[sharkboy421]

MissOuJ wrote...

I'll warn beforehand this is a bit TL;DR but allow me to get my drama freak on...

Actually, DA2 doesn't conform to the Hero's Journey template - or not all of it, anyway. If you study the structure of the DA2 plot, only the 1st Act conforms to the Hero's Journey Arch, even quite literally: Hawke + family get driven from their home (this isn't exactly Call to Adventure, but close enough) and to establish a new home need to face hardships to accomplish this (year in servitude, gathering money for the expedition), decent to the Abbyss (ie Deep Roads), defeats the Monster (Rock Wraith) and gets the prize - heaps of gold, new home, status, etc. Mix in a bit of "raggs to riches" and voila - the first act of DA2.

After that tought, all the bets are off. In Act 2 starts the - quite literal, in DA2's case - descent to madness, or chaos. Pretty much every major player in Kirkwall gets out of hand: Qunari in Act 2, Mages and Templars in Act 3 (whose animosity towards eachother has been established since Act 1).

In fact, if you look at the overal structure of DA2, it fits quite well into dramatic structure of a tragedy. Hawke, the protagonist, unknowingly puts the events in motion which end up rocking the (already unstable) foundations of Kirkwall's cosmos, and in doing so, s/he ends up throwing the whole city into chaos unintentionally, even thought it is (interrestingly enough) Anders who delivers the Point of No Return in the form of Chantry boom. Or course since we're talking about a video game with 30+h run time and a singular narrative from the point of view of a single PC it's not a perfect fit, but I think it hits pretty close to home.

Another possible narrative structure DA2 could fit into is of course the Heroine's Journey (link has an interesting analysis on that if anyone's interested) but I think I'll stop here or I'll have an essay in my hands...

/ TL;DR dramatic structure analysis over.

I agree 100% with you OP. The thing I really liked about DA2 was exactly that it didn't conform to the typical Hero's Journey tropes, and I'd like to see DA3 do something completely different yet again.

That's a very interesting analysis of DA2 and one I personally hadn't considered.  Also the link you provided about the Heroine's Journey was a very interesting read as well.  Actually viewing DA2 under that lense, the game starts to make a lot more sense (though there are some execution problems still). 

I wouldn't mind seeing Bioware trying something different with DA3 but I'm slightly worried as both DA2 and ME3 were plagued with other problems in execution and presentation that detracted a lot from the overall game.  But still very good analysis that I found fascinating.

[Wulfram]

I don't think Bioware were trying to flout convention with ME3. Actually, I'd say their problems came in a large part from trying to force the Big Final Choice that has become a Bioware (and other CRPG) convention into the story they'd written.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

To be fair, whenever you Lead Producer is stating they don't want the end of their video game to feel too "video game-y", then I think they are trying to flout convention.

[Darth Death]

I like being the hero in games because I'm a nobody in reality.

[Iakus]

To me the template of the stroy is less important than whether the story is told well. As far as I'm concerned, Bioware can do the Hero's Journey all they want. Or some other form of story, as long as they tell the story well and allow me a degree of agency as the protagonist.