136 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

To be fair, whenever you Lead Producer is stating they don't want the end of their video game to feel too "video game-y", then I think they are trying to flout convention.

Nah, that's just a poor way of expressing that having TIM do a Saren and turn into an evil robot version would have been lame.

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 janvier 2013 - 04:44 .

[AlanC9]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Bioware tried to flout convention in DA2 and ME3, to tepid response at best, disastrous at worst. It hints that the conventions used previously were not understood why they were effective, or did not reflect that understanding in trying to address people's natural, hard wired tendencies and desires when it comes to narrative structure.

While I agree with most of your post, ME3 actually maps pretty well onto the monomyth, at least in the Control and Destroy endings. (Don't know about DA2; I loathed the look of the demo so much that I didn't buy it.)

Maybe that's the real problem with Synthesis? Shepard doesn't bring back enlightenment; he just forces it on everyone.

Of course, ME3 flouted some other Bio conventions.

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 janvier 2013 - 05:19 .

[SparksMKII]

MissOuJ wrote...

SparksMKII wrote...

So basically you commend DA2 for breaking away from the "Hero's Journey" template. And here I thought it was about Hawke becoming the champion of Kirkwall which fits right into the "Hero's Journey" template.

Care to elaborate? And what would you have them do instead of a hero's journey then?

I'll warn beforehand this is a bit TL;DR but allow me to get my drama freak on...

Actually, DA2 doesn't conform to the Hero's Journey template - or not all of it, anyway. If you study the structure of the DA2 plot, only the 1st Act conforms to the Hero's Journey Arch, even quite literally: Hawke + family get driven from their home (this isn't exactly Call to Adventure, but close enough) and to establish a new home need to face hardships to accomplish this (year in servitude, gathering money for the expedition), decent to the Abbyss (ie Deep Roads), defeats the Monster (Rock Wraith) and gets the prize - heaps of gold, new home, status, etc. Mix in a bit of "raggs to riches" and voila - the first act of DA2.

After that tought, all the bets are off. In Act 2 starts the - quite literal, in DA2's case - descent to madness, or chaos. Pretty much every major player in Kirkwall gets out of hand: Qunari in Act 2, Mages and Templars in Act 3 (whose animosity towards eachother has been established since Act 1).

In fact, if you look at the overal structure of DA2, it fits quite well into dramatic structure of a tragedy. Hawke, the protagonist, unknowingly puts the events in motion which end up rocking the (already unstable) foundations of Kirkwall's cosmos, and in doing so, s/he ends up throwing the whole city into chaos unintentionally, even thought it is (interrestingly enough) Anders who delivers the Point of No Return in the form of Chantry boom. Or course since we're talking about a video game with 30+h run time and a singular narrative from the point of view of a single PC it's not a perfect fit, but I think it hits pretty close to home.

Another possible narrative structure DA2 could fit into is of course the Heroine's Journey (link has an interesting analysis on that if anyone's interested) but I think I'll stop here or I'll have an essay in my hands...

/ TL;DR dramatic structure analysis over.

I agree 100% with you OP. The thing I really liked about DA2 was exactly that it didn't conform to the typical Hero's Journey tropes, and I'd like to see DA3 do something completely different yet again.

I don't really remember much of DA2's plot other then Anders made the chantry go boom as compared to DA:O where I can still remember to this day who I placed on the throne, who I made king of Orzammar, that I denied Morrigan her ritual and so many more.
I guess we just have different preferences or I just couldn't really get into the Hawke character for some reason, either way thanks for an interesting read tho.

[nicethugbert]

Who knows, maybe DA2 will be vindicated in DA3 and everyone will go back to DA2 to get their play through just right for DA3.

[MissOuJ]

SparksMKII wrote...

I don't really remember much of DA2's plot other then Anders made the chantry go boom as compared to DA:O where I can still remember to this day who I placed on the throne, who I made king of Orzammar, that I denied Morrigan her ritual and so many more.
I guess we just have different preferences or I just couldn't really get into the Hawke character for some reason, either way thanks for an interesting read tho.

Well, it is a matter of preference - and also a matter of perspective. I don't mean to imply Hero's Journey = Andventures in Trite and Clichéd Storytelling and anything else = the Culmination of Art and Awesomeness. Narative structures are just tools to convey meaning and ideas - their usefulness is in how they're used.

My primary problem with the prevalence of Hero's Journey story structure (particularly in video games...) is that it limits the tools, techniques and even ideas games can convey. Would you ask an artist to only paint using black and white colours for the rest of her career, or only use alla prima and never use any other painting techniques ever again? Particularly if all the other artists are doing exactly the same?

Think about all the wonderful films we have that don't follow the Hero's Journey narrative, like Inception and the Dark Knight. By giving up on the central tennents of Hero's Journey these films are able to deliver narrative that is fresh, unique, and gives the storyline the tools it needs to deliver the ideas and emotions we experience while watching them. I'm willing to argue these ideas wouldn't have come across as powerful if the narrative structure had been different. I want to see that in video games. I want something different... and that's what made it interesting, that's what made me like the game, and that's what made it memorable to me.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 15 janvier 2013 - 06:13 .

[LinksOcarina]

Anyone think were all too cynical because were so exposed to these tropes and cliches of storytelling because of the mass media now a days?

The sort of structure that we see in BioWare games is no different from the main questlines in other RPGs, action titles, adventure games, and even shooters now a days. The difference is how the story is told, which is usually the deal-breaker in the end.

The difference between say Kingdoms of Amalur and Dragon Age: Origins are minute in terms of structure, but grand in terms of narrative and plot. However, structure is not everything, we just respond to it better despite being saturated with it wherever we go.

So we need more experimentation like Dragon Age II, but we need to be aware that there is nothing wrong with the tired and true formula because it does work when the people behind the wheels make it work.

[LinksOcarina]

AlanC9 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Bioware tried to flout convention in DA2 and ME3, to tepid response at best, disastrous at worst. It hints that the conventions used previously were not understood why they were effective, or did not reflect that understanding in trying to address people's natural, hard wired tendencies and desires when it comes to narrative structure.

While I agree with most of your post, ME3 actually maps pretty well onto the monomyth, at least in the Control and Destroy endings. (Don't know about DA2; I loathed the look of the demo so much that I didn't buy it.)

Maybe that's the real problem with Synthesis? Shepard doesn't bring back enlightenment; he just forces it on everyone.

Of course, ME3 flouted some other Bio conventions.

Mass Effect 3 works as a monomyth because of Shepard becoming a mythic character in the coda if you ask me. But symbolically he was always an exlempary, almost christ-like figure in the games, especially after his death and rebirth. So if you want to be technical about it Mass Effect can be seen as something parallel to judeo-christian theological stories. 

Even synthesis actually fits into this as well, its a great example of Campbells" Freedom to Live," which really is sort of going into the unknown territory of a brave new world. And even biblically it would give a christ-like figure, such as Shepard, the ability to transcend into an extra-ordinary human. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 15 janvier 2013 - 06:28 .

[addiction21]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Anyone think were all too cynical because were so exposed to these tropes and cliches of storytelling because of the mass media now a days?

Nah, its my time spent on the internet that has made me so cynical.

[Bwleon7]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

I once thought of an open-world RPG video game in which you play an NPC - sorta. I mean, you're not an NPC, since you're playable, but you play the guy/girl standing off to the sidelines. Maybe you're the merchant in town, or the guard outside the palace, or the random bystander. You can customize and level up and do all the things one would normally do with a playable character - but honey, you're NOT the hero. lol.

Meanwhile there IS this HERO running around the world, doing all these heroic things and you keep hearing everyone talk about him like he's some kind of awesome GOD or something.

Meanwhile you're kinda like, "ugh screw that guy" and no one ever treats you like a hero, ever. lol.

I think that'd be a great game.

I never played it but i believe White Kinight Chronicales for PS3 did something kinda like this. The player character that you make and play as is a companion to the hero. You still fight and go along on the adventure but the hero is an npc that you hang out with.

Modifié par Bwleon7, 15 janvier 2013 - 07:28 .

[Swagger7]

The Hero's Journey is one of those vague templates you can fit just about anything into. In other words, fairly useless.

[Foolsfolly]

Campbell didn't write a book (or multiple in this case) to make a template for stories. His work was based on finding similarities with stories and myths from around the world. The Campbell Journey of the Hero arc is something that humanity's been using since the the dawn of storytelling.

It's not BioWare aping Joe Campbell. It's just BioWare telling a story.

[Bfler]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

I once thought of an open-world RPG video game in which you play an NPC - sorta. I mean, you're not an NPC, since you're playable, but you play the guy/girl standing off to the sidelines. Maybe you're the merchant in town, or the guard outside the palace, or the random bystander. You can customize and level up and do all the things one would normally do with a playable character - but honey, you're NOT the hero. lol.

Meanwhile there IS this HERO running around the world, doing all these heroic things and you keep hearing everyone talk about him like he's some kind of awesome GOD or something.

Meanwhile you're kinda like, "ugh screw that guy" and no one ever treats you like a hero, ever. lol.

I think that'd be a great game.

This conversation between Picard and Q in Star Trek comes to my mind, when I read this:

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Bfler, 15 janvier 2013 - 08:13 .

[bombspy]

There are great examples of game stories told in a different way. The Walking Dead is a good example.
Probably the best example in the last years was Spec Ops: The Line. At the beginning you think you become a hero but in the end you become a monster.

I hope Bioware have enough courage to develop their own story arc.

[Sith Grey Warden]

Let's see how Dragon Age 2 holds up to the "Bioware cliches":

Humble origins: you're a refugee in a foreign city, rebuilding your life from nothing.

Devastating battle throws quiet life out of balance: offscreen, this happens with the destruction of Lothering. I would rather we had seen something of Lothering in DA2 so we had some idea of what it was that the Hawkes lost.

Two companions, mage and martial: loosely met, as you start with a warrior and mage (Carver and Bethany), though it's possible that it's no longer true when you reach Kirkwall (you have Aveline, a warrior, and one of the two starting companions). Varric also joins your group as soon as the intro is over.

Elite order: Averted

Four locations: Averted. They could have made this work, but Kirkwall became too monotonous. I never really noticed any changes at all within the city. Does it have to be four locations? No. But it would help to have more than one if locations are static.

Evil organization thwarting your every move: Averted. There's no clear overarching plot at all, and no real antagonist.

Dream sequence: you still visit the fade

Ancient ruins: the primordial dwarven ruins.

Half the cliches are still clearly present, and another is still loosely present. I don't really care about the "elite order" but I think the four locations and evil organization would both have helped the story. Because there was only one location, the game became much more monotonous. This can be solved in other ways, but those were not implemented in DA2. An evil organization could have meant that at least there was a clear antagonist. A clear antagonist means there's a clear goal: overcome the bad guy. This would have given Hawke a sense of purpose that was missing. Such a sense of purpose is important for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that roleplaying is much easier with a clear motivation established.

[tfcreative]

Emzamination wrote...
 My point is usually agression is synonymous with the villian or tyrant, roles that the protagonist is unable to fill, no matter how hard they struggle against the current.

Have you played Jade Empire? Villian/tyrant are completely within the reach of the player.

[Mclouvins]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

I once thought of an open-world RPG video game in which you play an NPC - sorta. I mean, you're not an NPC, since you're playable, but you play the guy/girl standing off to the sidelines. Maybe you're the merchant in town, or the guard outside the palace, or the random bystander. You can customize and level up and do all the things one would normally do with a playable character - but honey, you're NOT the hero. lol.

Meanwhile there IS this HERO running around the world, doing all these heroic things and you keep hearing everyone talk about him like he's some kind of awesome GOD or something.

Meanwhile you're kinda like, "ugh screw that guy" and no one ever treats you like a hero, ever. lol.

I think that'd be a great game.

Recettear

[Fishy]

I have seen greatness in the less expected place. Thing is.. with mainstream media it's always where you expect it. Because you know that the hero will always do what everyone else is incapable of doing. and this cliche is getting old. Because a hero don't have to be super in everything. Courage is not something measurable.

Modifié par Suprez30, 15 janvier 2013 - 08:51 .

[OdanUrr]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

(...)

I just think that Bioware has enough skilled individuals to break away from the "Hero's Journey" template. Patrick Wheeks said people just won't understand their stories if they break away from traditional structure. That maybe true considering the responce Dragon Age 2 got. But then again David Gaider did a great job as it was a damn good game. 

Would you also recommend writers to abstain from writing books following the "Hero's Journey" template because there are plenty already?

[TheJediSaint]

OdanUrr wrote...

Captain Cornhole wrote...

(...)

I just think that Bioware has enough skilled individuals to break away from the "Hero's Journey" template. Patrick Wheeks said people just won't understand their stories if they break away from traditional structure. That maybe true considering the responce Dragon Age 2 got. But then again David Gaider did a great job as it was a damn good game. 

Would you also recommend writers to abstain from writing books following the "Hero's Journey" template because there are plenty already?

The probelm with trying to "abstain" from the "Hero's Journey" is that you're pretty much abstaining from writing a story.   The Hero's Journy isn't a template, but a common thread that holds most stories together, including the ones that try to subvert it.

[OdanUrr]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Campbell didn't write a book (or multiple in this case) to make a template for stories. His work was based on finding similarities with stories and myths from around the world. The Campbell Journey of the Hero arc is something that humanity's been using since the the dawn of storytelling.

It's not BioWare aping Joe Campbell. It's just BioWare telling a story.

This.

TheJediSaint wrote...

The probelm with trying to "abstain" from the "Hero's Journey" is that you're pretty much abstaining from writing a story.   The Hero's Journy isn't a template, but a common thread that holds most stories together, including the ones that try to subvert it.

And this.

[Neoleviathan]

I'm not sure I'd totally agree with this, not with the latest games. Both commander Shepard & certian Dragon Age origin's have you start pretty well off. You don't begin humbly in ME when Shepard is one of the Alliance's best & about to become one of the galaxies finest. If Shepard had a heros journey, it was long before the plot of the games happened. I would say KoTOR fit the bill, but thats Star Wars so that kind of template is natural. Jade Empire too.
I don't have a problem with the hero's journey, sure it might make things predictable but that doesn't make your story any less significant, one of my favorite recent films was Winters Bone & that followed the heros journey pretty much to the letter. I don't think the writers are following to strict of a formula, not after the last few titles. I would look forward to them giving us a story with a heros journey just as much as any other, simply becuase the writers have proven to me atleast that they can do an excellent job with whatever storytype they are working with.

Modifié par Neoleviathan, 16 janvier 2013 - 06:27 .

[esper]

TheJediSaint wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Captain Cornhole wrote...

(...)

I just think that Bioware has enough skilled individuals to break away from the "Hero's Journey" template. Patrick Wheeks said people just won't understand their stories if they break away from traditional structure. That maybe true considering the responce Dragon Age 2 got. But then again David Gaider did a great job as it was a damn good game. 

Would you also recommend writers to abstain from writing books following the "Hero's Journey" template because there are plenty already?

The probelm with trying to "abstain" from the "Hero's Journey" is that you're pretty much abstaining from writing a story.   The Hero's Journy isn't a template, but a common thread that holds most stories together, including the ones that try to subvert it.

Not it is not, there is plenty of stories that is not build on that template.
Granted they not often seen in fantasy which dragon age is, but they exist in millioniums outside of this genre.

Edit. All right maybe not milliniums. If we stripp it down to its bare bones, the poplar phrase is that there exist 7 stories in the world.

But the first other template to the 'heroes' story would be the tragedy which is not simply a subversion of the heroes story. After all tragedies are as old as the hero's journey and as well loved. Comedies are often not this either, as they often ridicule the hero in every turn and the protagonist often end up having travel essansial nowhere. They are also really, really old.

Modifié par esper, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:17 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Being different for sake of being different does not make something good, it just makes it different.

Some people will like that difference and some will not.

I see no reason to intentionally go out of your way to avoid any tropes.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .