136 réponses à ce sujet

[FaWa]

As a whole, the plot of DA2 was much better than DAO

But DAO was much better when you look at individual plot lines.

[Iakus]

Sidney wrote...

DA2's sin in terms of story telling is not that Hawke is incidental but that is is not the only person who matters in the world.  People here mouth platitudes about immersion but they want a great dead world where the entire world is on hold pending their arrival of their character.

DA2's sin was stagnation.  Nothing changed, the player could not effect anything, save in two points.  Kirkwall doesn't grow or change.  Hawke is supposed to be rising from a penniless refugee to a major force in Kirkwall, but there's just a sameness that continues throughout the game  .Hawke the mercenary is largely the same person and has largely the sme adventures as Hawke the Amell scion and Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall. 

Yes a person like that should have an effect on the world, or at least the city they're in.  And by extension, the player's chocies.  Not necessailly earth-shaking, but at least in the immediate area around hawke.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

LinksOcarina wrote...
So we need more experimentation like Dragon Age II, but we need to be aware that there is nothing wrong with the tired and true formula because it does work when the people behind the wheels make it work.

I remember Micheal Wilson, one of the lead producers of the James Bond films for years, saying that expression of "if it's not broken don't fix it" he said that it feels that it leads to stagnation.  

[Maria Caliban]

When Michael Wilson became executive producer, there had already been 10 successful Bond films though. It was a well established franchise.

[TheJediSaint]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
So we need more experimentation like Dragon Age II, but we need to be aware that there is nothing wrong with the tired and true formula because it does work when the people behind the wheels make it work.

I remember Micheal Wilson, one of the lead producers of the James Bond films for years, saying that expression of "if it's not broken don't fix it" he said that it feels that it leads to stagnation.  

So, generally speaking, incremental change is probably better than radical reinvention.

[Renmiri1]

Captain Cornhole wrote... 

 "Hero's Journey" ... Bioware

Welcome to 5 years ago OP. 


I think DA2 was very innovative and wasn't the HJ template at all and Mass Effect 3 was awfull but at least it was an attempt to break from it as well.

I trust DA's team to know how to tell stories more thatn I trust would be game historians 5 years too late

[Addai]

esper wrote...
All this still does not make him the main characther nor the protagonist. Which is what I am discussing. I don't care about whose action has the most world effect. It is irrellavant. I simply want people to use the term correctly. Anders is indeed a important actor, but he is not and never will be the main character, nor is he the protagonist. I was simply pointing out the most obvious reason as to why it is not the actor who is the protagonist.

These terms aren't as set in stone as you make out.  In my view Anders is the main character, Hawke is the point of view character and Varric of course the narrator.  It's a toss-up which is the protagonist- probably there isn't one.  The whole champion business is a sideshow, Cassandra's delusion or Bioware marketing gimmick, but essentially a footnote to the main story which is Anders'.  That's how I see it, you're free to differ.

Renmiri1 wrote...
I think DA2 was very innovative and wasn't the HJ template at all and Mass Effect 3 was awfull but at least it was an attempt to break from it as well.

I trust DA's team to know how to tell stories more thatn I trust would be game historians 5 years too late

Since their two attempts at getting around the template haven't been very successful...

Modifié par Addai67, 16 janvier 2013 - 07:44 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]esper wrote...
All this still does not make him the main characther nor the protagonist. Which is what I am discussing. I don't care about whose action has the most world effect. It is irrellavant. I simply want people to use the term correctly. Anders is indeed a important actor, but he is not and never will be the main character, nor is he the protagonist. I was simply pointing out the most obvious reason as to why it is not the actor who is the protagonist.
[/quote]
These terms aren't as set in stone as you make out. In my view Anders is the main character, Hawke is the point of view character and Varric of course the narrator.  It's a toss-up which is the protagonist- probably there isn't one.  The whole champion business is a sideshow, Cassandra's delusion or Bioware marketing gimmick, but essentially a footnote to the main story which is Anders'.  That's how I see it, you're free to differ.[/quote]
I have to agree with esper. I don't think Anders is the protagonist. It's known that Anders blew up the Chantry in Kirkwall. A disgruntled mage. The Chantry knows what happened at the time of Cassandra's interrogation and they're no longer interested in the what. Understanding how to approach or manage the situation is now their concern, and for that they need Hawke-- knowledge of him, his experiences in Kirkwall, the side he chose, anything that had a hand in picking the side he did.

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...
I think DA2 was very innovative and wasn't the HJ template at all and Mass Effect 3 was awfull but at least it was an attempt to break from it as well.

I trust DA's team to know how to tell stories more thatn I trust would be game historians 5 years too late [/quote]
Since their two attempts at getting around the template haven't been very successful...[/quote]
I thought both were fine, actually. *gasp*

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 17 janvier 2013 - 12:42 .

[SparksMKII]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
So we need more experimentation like Dragon Age II, but we need to be aware that there is nothing wrong with the tired and true formula because it does work when the people behind the wheels make it work.

I remember Micheal Wilson, one of the lead producers of the James Bond films for years, saying that expression of "if it's not broken don't fix it" he said that it feels that it leads to stagnation.  

So, generally speaking, incremental change is probably better than radical reinvention.

I think changing Bond from the established tall, dark and handsome person to a short blonde guy was a rather radical reinvention of the character. It's why I lost my interest in 007 entirely since I grew accustomed to that but the new direction seems to have gathered a lot of new fans judging by Skyfall's success.

If the company wants to make a radical change then that's fine but that change will be a turning point, sometimes for the better (007 change to a short blonde guy) and sometimes for the worse (DA:O to DA2).

If it doesn't work out the way you hoped there's really no shame in admitting your fault and learning from it the next time you're about to make such a decision.

I'm sure it's not easy being the guy who ultimately has to make the decision.

Modifié par SparksMKII, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:25 .

[MissOuJ]

Addai67 wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...
Actually, DA2 doesn't conform to the Hero's Journey template - or not all of it, anyway.

It does if you realize that Anders is the main character of DA2, not Hawke.  Anti-hero, anyway.

I don't mind a heroic arc.  In fact I can't think of many other reasons why I'd want to play a video game.  Surely not to be a nobody.  It's all in the execution of it, really.  You're more likely to end up with a hamfisted mess trying to get away from familiar storylines as just embracing the archetypes and trying to give personalized twist to them.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. As far as Anders' character arc is concerned, it's mostly about battling his personal demons, in and outside his own head. There's the Templars in general, and Ulric and Meredith in particular, and then Justice. He doesn't have a heroic arc... actually, he's more of a tragic (anti-)hero: his well-meaning yet misguided actions (saving Justice by merging with him) end up causing him and others around him great misery and end up causing his downfall - and death, depending on the player.

Other than that, I do agree with you about the importance of execution and that there's nothing inherently wrong with heroic arcs - I just don't agree that we should stick to familiar formulas just because. There's a lot more to gaming than power fantasies, just like there is a lot more to movies than comedies or dramas. And surely Hawke was not a "nobody" - it's just that her/his actions weren't enough to stop the cause-and-effect chain that her/his previous actions (unknowingly) put to motion, which is a text-book example of Aristotelian tragedy.

It's actually interesting to contrast Act 1 with Acts 2 & 3, since in A1 we have a rather traditional Hero's Journey plot plays out, after which Hawke meets the first criterias of Aristotelian tragedy, ie. becomes a nobleman/woman and, after A2, becomes a very respected, incluential and important part of Kirkwall's society. So it's as if A1 is actually a prequel to the tragedy of Acts 2&3: her/his character is raised a hero only to have their own actions be the ones that bring about Kirkwalls fall (and possibly Hawke's exile from Kirkwall, depending on the player - which also fits one other common characteristic of tragedies: the hero receiving a much harsher punishment than they deserve). I think that's a very interesting way to interpret Hawke's character - a flawed hero raised to greatness by her/his own determination only to be forced to fall by destiny's forces that s/he her/himself put to motion. It's pretty amazing when you think about it - or at least I think so.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:29 .

[Cimeas]

Almost all classics are Hero's Journey.

It's good because it works. Let's leave it at that.

[Am1vf]

Congratulations everyone for making a fascinating forum thread and keeping a civil and interesting discussion.

MissOuJ wrote...

SparksMKII wrote...

So basically you commend DA2 for breaking away from the "Hero's Journey" template. And here I thought it was about Hawke becoming the champion of Kirkwall which fits right into the "Hero's Journey" template.

Care to elaborate? And what would you have them do instead of a hero's journey then?

I'll warn beforehand this is a bit TL;DR but allow me to get my drama freak on...

Actually, DA2 doesn't conform to the Hero's Journey template - or not all of it, anyway. If you study the structure of the DA2 plot, only the 1st Act conforms to the Hero's Journey Arch, even quite literally: Hawke + family get driven from their home (this isn't exactly Call to Adventure, but close enough) and to establish a new home need to face hardships to accomplish this (year in servitude, gathering money for the expedition), decent to the Abbyss (ie Deep Roads), defeats the Monster (Rock Wraith) and gets the prize - heaps of gold, new home, status, etc. Mix in a bit of "raggs to riches" and voila - the first act of DA2.

After that tought, all the bets are off. In Act 2 starts the - quite literal, in DA2's case - descent to madness, or chaos. Pretty much every major player in Kirkwall gets out of hand: Qunari in Act 2, Mages and Templars in Act 3 (whose animosity towards eachother has been established since Act 1).

In fact, if you look at the overal structure of DA2, it fits quite well into dramatic structure of a tragedy. Hawke, the protagonist, unknowingly puts the events in motion which end up rocking the (already unstable) foundations of Kirkwall's cosmos, and in doing so, s/he ends up throwing the whole city into chaos unintentionally, even thought it is (interrestingly enough) Anders who delivers the Point of No Return in the form of Chantry boom. Or course since we're talking about a video game with 30+h run time and a singular narrative from the point of view of a single PC it's not a perfect fit, but I think it hits pretty close to home.

Another possible narrative structure DA2 could fit into is of course the Heroine's Journey (link has an interesting analysis on that if anyone's interested) but I think I'll stop here or I'll have an essay in my hands...

/ TL;DR dramatic structure analysis over.

I agree 100% with you OP. The thing I really liked about DA2 was exactly that it didn't conform to the typical Hero's Journey tropes, and I'd like to see DA3 do something completely different yet again.

That is a really good read, I may need to re-read it to really assimilate it and I shall look for that book mentioned in it, 45 Master Characters, in particular for my current studies. Thank you for sharing.

Although I don't reject or try to avoud the hero's journey I am allways open to different things.

[Renmiri1]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]esper wrote...
All this still does not make him the main characther nor the protagonist. Which is what I am discussing. I don't care about whose action has the most world effect. It is irrellavant. I simply want people to use the term correctly. Anders is indeed a important actor, but he is not and never will be the main character, nor is he the protagonist. I was simply pointing out the most obvious reason as to why it is not the actor who is the protagonist.
[/quote]
These terms aren't as set in stone as you make out. In my view Anders is the main character, Hawke is the point of view character and Varric of course the narrator.  It's a toss-up which is the protagonist- probably there isn't one.  The whole champion business is a sideshow, Cassandra's delusion or Bioware marketing gimmick, but essentially a footnote to the main story which is Anders'.  That's how I see it, you're free to differ.[/quote]
I have to agree with esper. I don't think Anders is the protagonist. It's known that Anders blew up the Chantry in Kirkwall. A disgruntled mage. The Chantry knows what happened at the time of Cassandra's interrogation and they're no longer interested in the what. Understanding how to approach or manage the situation is now their concern, and for that they need Hawke-- knowledge of him, his experiences in Kirkwall, the side he chose, anything that had a hand in picking the side he did.

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...
I think DA2 was very innovative and wasn't the HJ template at all and Mass Effect 3 was awfull but at least it was an attempt to break from it as well.

I trust DA's team to know how to tell stories more thatn I trust would be game historians 5 years too late [/quote]
Since their two attempts at getting around the template haven't been very successful...[/quote]
I thought both were fine, acutally. *gasp*
[/quote]

I love DA2 but ME3 was 

[Addai]

MissOuJ wrote...

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. As far as Anders' character arc is concerned, it's mostly about battling his personal demons, in and outside his own head. There's the Templars in general, and Ulric and Meredith in particular, and then Justice. He doesn't have a heroic arc... actually, he's more of a tragic (anti-)hero: his well-meaning yet misguided actions (saving Justice by merging with him) end up causing him and others around him great misery and end up causing his downfall - and death, depending on the player.

That's ok.  If you go back a page or two, I do parenthesize that he's more of an anti-hero.  It's not only personal conflicts.  He encounters both internal and external obstacles.

[Sidney]

iakus wrote...


DA2's sin was stagnation.  Nothing changed, the player could not effect anything, save in two points.  Kirkwall doesn't grow or change.  Hawke is supposed to be rising from a penniless refugee to a major force in Kirkwall, but there's just a sameness that continues throughout the game  .Hawke the mercenary is largely the same person and has largely the sme adventures as Hawke the Amell scion and Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall. 

Yes a person like that should have an effect on the world, or at least the city they're in.  And by extension, the player's chocies.  Not necessailly earth-shaking, but at least in the immediate area around hawke.

The point of the story was that Cassandra thought Hawke was the hero/actor/prime mover you and others wanted to him to be....but he wasn't that guy. He didn't get the idol intentionally. He didn't help Anders set the bomb.  This wasn't, as Cassandra says, what she thought happened.

Bioware did something interesting and asked what if you aren't THAT guy you are a guy but not the only guy.  Clearly that take on the story didn't resonate with a lot of people on these boards so I'm sure the next story will feature more John McClain than Chauncey Gardiner.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

You know I don't think DA2's problems were its major plot line, its that it was populated by boring, annoying and cliched characters, it reused environments, had an awful loot system and had a sub-par battle system with ridiculous mobs, had these parts of the game been up to Bioware usual standards you would have alot less people saying how awful DA2 actually is.

[Iakus]

TheJediSaint wrote...

So, generally speaking, incremental change is probably better than radical reinvention.

For the most part.  Otherwise you risk killing the goose that lays the golden eggs

Or as Galdalf put it: "'And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom” 

[Iakus]

Sidney wrote...

The point of the story was that Cassandra thought Hawke was the hero/actor/prime mover you and others wanted to him to be....but he wasn't that guy. He didn't get the idol intentionally. He didn't help Anders set the bomb.  This wasn't, as Cassandra says, what she thought happened.

Bioware did something interesting and asked what if you aren't THAT guy you are a guy but not the only guy.  Clearly that take on the story didn't resonate with a lot of people on these boards so I'm sure the next story will feature more John McClain than Chauncey Gardiner.

It wasn't just that, it's that nothing Hawke did changed anything, big or small save the sibling's fate and how the Arishok is dealt with.

Did you help the magistrate's son?  How did you deal with Grace?  Help rn the Bone Pit?  Hawke's decisions didnt even affect Hawke let alone Kirkwall.

[Wynne]

If I have to choose between a nuanced version of the HJ template with a few twists, and a plot that doesn't know what it's doing because the writers had too much to focus on... well, give me the old framework. It gave us a lot of great games.

There's something to be said for not reinventing the wheel; even if you improve it somehow you're better off with round than square.

[lil yonce]

iakus wrote...

It wasn't just that, it's that nothing Hawke did changed anything, big or small save the sibling's fate and how the Arishok is dealt with.

Did you help the magistrate's son?  How did you deal with Grace?  Help rn the Bone Pit?  Hawke's decisions didnt even affect Hawke let alone Kirkwall.

Why can't Hawke's decisions to help be impactful on their own? The most important thing about the DA2 ending was the Champion of Kirkwall chose a side, not that his side won. It accomplished what it was supposed to. The decision affects Hawke personally determining who he is and what he stands for. That's the repercussion. The small interactions with Grace, the magistrate's son, companions, etc. ultimately shape Hawke's views on every issue in Kirkwall and those attitudes propel him to act as he does, and why he acted, why he sided with the Mages or Templars, his approach to the situation as the Champion of Kirkwall before it imploded was of great interest to the Chantry. It's the entire basis of the story so to say Hawke's choices don't mean anything is, in my opinion, incorrect.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 17 janvier 2013 - 03:57 .

[Renmiri1]

Sidney wrote...

The point of the story was that Cassandra thought Hawke was the hero/actor/prime mover you and others wanted to him to be....but he wasn't that guy. He didn't get the idol intentionally. He didn't help Anders set the bomb.  This wasn't, as Cassandra says, what she thought happened.

Bioware did something interesting and asked what if you aren't THAT guy you are a guy but not the only guy.  Clearly that take on the story didn't resonate with a lot of people on these boards so I'm sure the next story will feature more John McClain than Chauncey Gardiner.

Would say more Janeway or JL Piccard than Chauncey Gardner. Hawke is the "captain" for her/his band of rebels and doesn't do everything, nor does her/his reality stay static waiting for her/ him to plan in advance. A lot of thetimes the leader has to react to problems brought on by the team, or to accept / deny suggestions of course from the team. That doesn't mean she/he is braindead like Chauncey.

PS: On DAO regardless of your choices there would be a Blight, you would be made Grey Warden, Loghaine would hunt you and the Blight would end. Nothing you did changed any of those preset plot points. Denerim will always fall, no matter what you do. Duncan and the King die, no matter what. You may help a tribe here or free some mages there but the main plot points will always happen. 

So why the big fuss about the fixed plot points on DA2 ? The idol will be found, the Arishok will fall and the Templar / Mage war will start. That is the story, no sense whinning about it.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 17 janvier 2013 - 03:56 .

[caridounette]

I think theres an other point here that should be discussed (or maybe just wasnt discussed enough in my view). Its the nature of the videogame and its interactiveness, which is pretty much lead, in the case of Bioware games, by the story.

It doesnt look too easy to replace the heroes journey by an other type of story template when you have to contend with the mechanics of a RPG (tho im sure its not impossible, it would need some innovation).

Lets take for exemple DA2. I do command Bioware for trying to do something diffrent then the classical 'heroe-on-a-mission' template. But many of the things that bother me from the game actually have to do with its lack of direction. Often, i just couldnt understand why my character was forced to do this and that if there was no emergency. Why the characters my PC disliked openly (it differed in the 2 playthroughs) would stick around all those years without a big Evil forcing us to join forces. I felt the environment was just that much more static because i had time to wonder about what i was doing there.

In DAO, I took time to figure waht my character wanted in life but it was obvious enough that all taht would have to wait until after the Bligh. But in DA2, it was always conflicting with the apparent absence of goal... like why am I doing this if I always wanted to do that instead.

So to come back to the 'template' of the game I think a big part of it is due to having to put up with the game interrractive narrative and immersion mechanisms we are used to. I would really like to see something different. After all theres a wider diversity in books or other non interactive medias (tho you could always see it all as a heroes journey if you blur things enough). But from what i felt playing DA2, the absence of a driving force without the real life liberty of choice and action doesnt make for that great of a game experience. Would have made an ok book now that I think of it tho (a bit a la Game of Thrones maybe with different stories colliding).

(oh and sorry for the non proper english)

[In Exile]

caridounette wrote...
Lets take for exemple DA2. I do command Bioware for trying to do something diffrent then the classical 'heroe-on-a-mission' template. But many of the things that bother me from the game actually have to do with its lack of direction.

...

In DAO, I took time to figure waht my character wanted in life but it was obvious enough that all taht would have to wait until after the Bligh. But in DA2, it was always conflicting with the apparent absence of goal... like why am I doing this if I always wanted to do that instead.ding).

In DA:O, you bought the following things:

1) Your character wants to stop the Blight.
2) Your character, specifically, wants to stop the blight in Ferelden.
3) Your character, more than just stop the blight in Ferelden, wants to save Ferelden (the human nation, specifically). There's no option to not bother with the civil war.
4) Your character, at the Frostback mountains, chooses to deal with Orzammar's political BS instead of run off to Orlais.

There were lots of other things to do after Ostagar. You could have gone to Orlais. You could have rallied all of the non-human nations, and them allowed archdemon to devastate the human lands until it showed itself and then use your non-human military force.

DA:O didn't give you direction - it gave you a hook (the Blight) and then a lot of limitations. And you accepted those.

DA2 gave you a hook - your family - and then lots of options, like power/wealth/status/coin, etc. The main quests don't ever have a justification in Bioware games beyond they're the main quests.

There wasn't a lack of direction in DA2 - most players just didn't buy the reason they had to make up for themselves.

[Foolsfolly]

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...

[quote]Captain Cornhole wrote... 

 "Hero's Journey" ... Bioware

[/quote]

Welcome to 5 years ago OP. 


I think DA2 was very innovative and wasn't the HJ template at all and Mass Effect 3 was awfull but at least it was an attempt to break from it as well.

I trust DA's team to know how to tell stories more thatn I trust would be game historians 5 years too late

[/quote]

Again the Hero's Journey is not a guide line to tell a story. It was Campbell's attempt to distill all narratives and mostly myths down to their base elements. As such it's so vague nearly any story contains the majority of it. Including DA2 and ME3 as I will demonstrate (while using some help from Wikipedia):

The Call to Adventure.

What did Campbell say?

[quote]Campbell: "This first stage of the mythological journey—which we
have designated the 'call to adventure'—signifies that destiny has
summoned the hero and transferred his spiritual center of gravity from
within the pale of his society to a zone unknown. This fateful region of
both treasure and danger may be variously represented: as a distant
land, a forest, a kingdom underground, beneath the waves, or above the
sky, a secret island, lofty mountaintop, or profound dream state; but it
is always a place of strangely fluid and polymorphous beings,
unimaginable torments, superhuman deeds, and impossible delight. The
hero can go forth of his own volition to accomplish the adventure, as
did Theseus when he arrived in his father's city, Athens, and heard the
horrible history of the Minotaur; or he may be carried or sent abroad by some benign or malignant agent as was Odysseus,
driven about the Mediterranean by the winds of the angered god,
Poseidon. The adventure may begin as a mere blunder… or still again, one
may be only casually strolling when some passing phenomenon catches the
wandering eye and lures one away from the frequented paths of man.
Examples might be multiplied, ad infinitum, from every corner of the
world."[/quote]

DA2- The call to adventure is given by Flemeth and a little by Momma Hawke. Flemeth saves the Hawkes and tells them to go to a mountain outside of a city full of blood mages, abominations, and a weakened Veil where the story starts.

ME3- The call is given by Admiral Anderson who sends a reluncted Shepard into the stars to gather help and stop the Reaper threat. Space is full of wonders and strange aliens as well.

Supernatural Aid-

What did Campbell say?

[quote]Campbell: "For those who have not refused the call, the first
encounter of the hero journey is with a protective figure (often a
little old crone or old man) who provides the adventurer with amulets
against the dragon forces he is about to pass. What such a figure
represents is the benign, protecting power of destiny. The fantasy is a
reassurance—promise that the peace of Paradise, which was known first
within the mother womb, is not to be lost; that it supports the present
and stands in the future as well as in the past (is omega as well as
alpha); that though omnipotence may seem to be endangered by the
threshold passages and life awakenings, protective power is always and
ever present within or just behind the unfamiliar features of the world.
One has only to know and trust, and the ageless guardians will appear.
Having responded to his own call, and continuing to follow courageously
as the consequences unfold, the hero finds all the forces of the
unconscious at his side. Mother Nature herself supports the mighty task.
And in so far as the hero's act coincides with that for which his
society is ready, he seems to ride on the great rhythm of the historical
process."[/quote]

In DA2- Take your pick. You have Bethany, Anders, and Merrill who you all pick up or start the game with. There's also Flemeth herself who, in her cryptic manner, warns Hawke each time she meets them. In a less literal manner Varric gives Hawke the means to escape their povety with the expedition.

In ME3- EDI stands out immediately since she always helps whenever you need a near magical way to help. Liara is also picked up on Mars and has the blue prints to stop the Reapers.

Crossing the First Threshold-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]Campbell: "With the personifications of his destiny to guide and
aid him, the hero goes forward in his adventure until he comes to the
'threshold guardian' at the entrance to the zone of magnified power.
Such custodians bound the world in four directions—also up and
down—standing for the limits of the hero's present sphere, or life
horizon. Beyond them is darkness, the unknown and danger; just as beyond
the parental watch is danger to the infant and beyond the protection of
his society danger to the members of the tribe. The usual person is
more than content, he is even proud, to remain within the indicated
bounds, and popular belief gives him every reason to fear so much as the
first step into the unexplored. The adventure is always and everywhere a
passage beyond the veil of the known into the unknown; the powers that
watch at the boundary are dangerous; to deal with them is risky; yet for
anyone with competence and courage the danger fades."[/quote]

In DA2- The Deep Roads themselves and the Rock Monster boss fight is a dragon at the end (although there's a dragon too and in my experience the dragon's the tougher fight). The Deep Roads also seperates Hawke and their last sibling and is the very moment where Hawke transforms from penniless refugee to noble-person.

In ME3- Tougher to say with any large amount of certainty. But the moment you leave the Citadel to go at Palaven seems right. That's the moment in the story where Shepard is uncertain of the direction to go to fight the Reapers. And there's no telling what's left of Palaven when you arrive (not much). There's also the fact that this is where the Galaxy Map finally gets unlocked and now Reapers hunt the Normandy which clearly lines up with "the powers that watch at the boundary are dangerous; to deal with them is risky; yet for anyone with competence and courage the danger fades" bit rather well.

Belly of the Whale-

What did Campbell say?

[quote]Campbell: "The idea that the passage of the magical threshold is a
transit into a sphere of rebirth is symbolized in the worldwide womb
image of the belly of the whale. The hero, instead of conquering or
conciliating the power of the threshold, is swallowed into the unknown
and would appear to have died. This popular motif gives emphasis to the
lesson that the passage of the threshold is a form of self-annihilation.
Instead of passing outward, beyond the confines of the visible world,
the hero goes inward, to be born again. The disappearance corresponds to
the passing of a worshipper into a temple—where he is to be quickened
by the recollection of who and what he is, namely dust and ashes unless
immortal. The temple interior, the belly of the whale, and the heavenly
land beyond, above, and below the confines of the world, are one and the
same. That is why the approaches and entrances to temples are flanked
and defended by colossal gargoyles: dragons, lions, devil-slayers with
drawn swords, resentful dwarfs, winged bulls. The devotee at the moment
of entry into a temple undergoes a metamorphosis. Once inside he may be
said to have died to time and returned to the World Womb, the World
Navel, the Earthly Paradise. Allegorically, then, the passage into a
temple and the hero-dive through the jaws of the whale are identical
adventures, both denoting in picture language, the life-centering,
life-renewing act."[/quote]

In DA2- I'm going to have to say the Deep Roads once more but only if the player wants it to be. The loss of a sibling and the rise of influence could be something that changes your Hawke on a personal level. I've done that (selfish Hawke becomes selfless after that point; a funny Hawke becomes serious; and once a reasonable Hawke became selfish). This is actually really hard to do in an RPG because the player should be allowed to decide the inner workings of their PC. But another one is easily Momma Hawke's end.

In ME3- Again due to the fact that it's an RPG it's hard to say. But the forced dreams about the child that died in the beginning are definately an internized struggle with guilt or remorse. And the player could see this as something to spur on a change in their Shepard. But again... this one goes rather hard against RPG principles. And any number of moments can be the moment that changes your character. Another such moment is the end of Tuchanka.

The Road of Trials-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]"Once having traversed the threshold, the hero moves in a dream
landscape of curiously fluid, ambiguous forms, where he must survive a
succession of trials. This is a favorite phase of the myth-adventure. It
has produced a world literature of miraculous tests and ordeals. The
hero is covertly aided by the advice, amulets, and secret agents of the
supernatural helper whom he met before his entrance into this region. Or
it may be that he here discovers for the first time that there is a
benign power everywhere supporting him in his superhuman passage. The
original departure into the land of trials represented only the
beginning of the long and really perilous path of initiatory conquests
and moments of illumination. Dragons have now to be slain and surprising
barriers passed—again, again, and again. Meanwhile there will be a
multitude of preliminary victories, unretainable ecstasies and momentary
glimpses of the wonderful land."[/quote]

DA2- Come on he's describing grinding. That bit in the middle of the game where you've literally killed dragons and saved lives and done cool things but not the really big things yet. But in particular I'd point at becoming Champion of Kirkwall after dealing with the Arishok.

ME3- Come on it's the middle of the game. Where you've killed rachni monsters and giant geth-reaper hybrid flying monsters. And you've had great victories like saving a school of children or recruiting an old friend. But the big stuff's still ahead of you. But in particular killing that Reaper on Rannoch.

The Meeting with the Goddess-

What does Campbell say? Some really old fashion ideals of course:

[quote]Campbell: "The ultimate adventure, when all the barriers and
ogres have been overcome, is commonly represented as a mystical marriage
of the triumphant hero-soul with the Queen Goddess of the World. This
is the crisis at the nadir, the zenith, or at the uttermost edge of the
earth, at the central point of the cosmos, in the tabernacle of the
temple, or within the darkness of the deepest chamber of the heart. The
meeting with the goddess (who is incarnate in every woman) is the final
test of the talent of the hero to win the boon of love (charity: amor
fati), which is life itself enjoyed as the encasement of eternity. And
when the adventurer, in this context, is not a youth but a maid, she is
the one who, by her qualities, her beauty, or her yearning, is fit to
become the consort of an immortal. Then the heavenly husband descends to
her and conducts her to his bed—whether she will or not. And if she has
shunned him, the scales fall from her eyes; if she has sought him, her
desire finds its peace." [/quote]

In DA2- Broadly this can be any romance for any gender. Strictly speaking he's talking about a male protagonist and all that but in general terms this is just completing any romance subplot in the game.

In ME3- Broadly speaking once more this is the completion of any romance sub-plot in the game. Except Jacob and Thane since one dies and the other cheats on you.

Woman as Temptress-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]"The crux of the curious difficulty lies in the fact that our conscious
views of what life ought to be seldom correspond to what life really is.
Generally we refuse to admit within ourselves, or within our friends,
the fullness of that pushing, self-protective, malodorous, carnivorous,
lecherous fever which is the very nature of the organic cell. Rather, we
tend to perfume, whitewash, and reinterpret; meanwhile imagining that
all the flies in the ointment, all the hairs in the soup, are the faults
of some unpleasant someone else. But when it suddenly dawns on us, or
is forced to our attention that everything we think or do is necessarily
tainted with the odor of the flesh, then, not uncommonly, there is
experienced a moment of revulsion: life, the acts of life, the organs of
life, woman in particular as the great symbol of life, become
intolerable to the pure, the pure, pure soul. The seeker of the life
beyond life must press beyond (the woman), surpass the temptations of
her call, and soar to the immaculate ether beyond."[/quote]

In DA2- I told you Campbell was 'old fashioned' which here means kinda totally misogynistic.  In general what he's saying is the hero doesn't give in to temptation. Which in an RPG can be at any moment there's a choice between the self and others. Although there is that Blood Mage prostitute....

In ME3- Again it's anytime Shepard did not give into temptation. And RPGs are full of choices. Refusing the Dalatross's offer in particular sticks out to me. Although, being an RPG, accepting the offer might not be seen as a bad thing by another player.

Atonement with the Father-

What did Campbell say?

[quote]"Atonement consists in no more than the abandonment of that
self-generated double monster—the dragon thought to be God (superego)
and the dragon thought to be Sin (repressed id). But this requires an
abandonment of the attachment to ego itself, and that is what is
difficult. One must have a faith that the father is merciful, and then a
reliance on that mercy. Therewith, the center of belief is transferred
outside of the bedeviling god's tight scaly ring, and the dreadful ogres
dissolve. It is in this ordeal that the hero may derive hope and
assurance from the helpful female figure, by whose magic (pollen charms
or power of intercession) he is protected through all the frightening
experiences of the father's ego-shattering initiation. For if it is
impossible to trust the terrifying father-face, then one's faith must be
centered elsewhere (Spider Woman, Blessed Mother); and with that
reliance for support, one endures the crisis—only to find, in the end,
that the father and mother reflect each other, and are in essence the
same. The problem of the hero going to meet the father is to open his
soul beyond terror to such a degree that he will be ripe to understand
how the sickening and insane tragedies of this vast and ruthless cosmos
are completely validated in the majesty of Being. The hero transcends
life with its peculiar blind spot and for a moment rises to a glimpse of
the source. He beholds the face of the father, understands—and the two
are atoned."[/quote]

In DA2- Never happens.

In ME3- The Catalyst.

Apotheosis-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]"Those who know, not only that the Everlasting lies in them, but that
what they, and all things, really are is the Everlasting, dwell in the
groves of the wish fulfilling trees, drink the brew of immortality, and
listen everywhere to the unheard music of eternal concord."[/quote]

In DA2- The years where Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall and before the city goes to hell. Hawke's rich, probably owns a mine, probably has a love in their life, they've lost much but gained much too. Life's good... it's about to not be.

In ME3- Shepard gets a few of these late in the game. The picnic with Garrus, the lunch with Kaiden, ... I can't remember the others it's been like 10 months since I played that game. But each of those moments of peace/bliss before the storm count. Also the final romance scenes may be seen in this light.

The Ultimate Boon-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]"The gods and goddesses then are to be understood as embodiments and
custodians of the elixir of Imperishable Being but not themselves the
Ultimate in its primary state. What the hero seeks through his
intercourse with them is therefore not finally themselves, but their
grace, i.e., the power of their sustaining substance. This miraculous
energy-substance and this alone is the Imperishable; the names and forms
of the deities who everywhere embody, dispense, and represent it come
and go. This is the miraculous energy of the thunderbolts of Zeus,
Yahweh, and the Supreme Buddha, the fertility of the rain of Viracocha,
the virtue announced by the bell rung in the Mass at the consecration,
and the light of the ultimate illumination of the saint and sage. Its
guardians dare release it only to the duly proven."[/quote]

In DA2- The Hawke Key comes immedately to mind. That is a DLC of course in the vanilla game there isn't any great plot specific item that fills this bill. But any great loot given to you after killing or impressing someone/something is.

In ME3- Completing the Crucible project which was handed down to you by the Protheans and full of divine space magic.

Refusal of the Return-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]"When the hero-quest has been accomplished, through penetration to the
source, or through the grace of some male or female, human or animal,
personification, the adventurer still must return with his
life-transmuting trophy. The full round, the norm of the monomyth,
requires that the hero shall now begin the labor of bringing the runes
of wisdom, the Golden Fleece, or his sleeping princess, back into the
kingdom of humanity, where the boon may redound to the renewing of the
community, the nation, the planet or the ten thousand worlds. But the
responsibility has been frequently refused. Even Gautama Buddha, after
his triumph, doubted whether the message of realization could be
communicated, and saints are reported to have died while in the supernal
ecstasy. Numerous indeed are the heroes fabled to have taken up
residence forever in the blessed isle of the unaging Goddess of Immortal
Being."[/quote]

In DA2- I suppose Hawke's disappearance can be thought by some to be this. But I don't think so.

In ME3- Doesn't happen.

The Magic Flight-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]Campbell: "If the hero in his triumph wins the blessing of the
goddess or the god and is then explicitly commissioned to return to the
world with some elixir for the restoration of society, the final stage
of his adventure is supported by all the powers of his supernatural
patron. On the other hand, if the trophy has been attained against the
opposition of its guardian, or if the hero's wish to return to the world
has been resented by the gods or demons, then the last stage of the
mythological round becomes a lively, often comical, pursuit. This flight
may be complicated by marvels of magical obstruction and evasion."[/quote]

In DA2- Doesn't happen.

In ME3- The Normandy's flight at the end may be seen as this. Especially under the synthesis ending since EDI and Joker are seemingly harbingers of the future.

Rescue from Without-

What does Campbell say?

[quote] "The hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure
by assistance from without. That is to say, the world may have to come
and get him. For the bliss of the deep abode is not lightly abandoned in
favor of the self-scattering of the wakened state. 'Who having cast off
the world,' we read, 'would desire to return again? He would be only
there.' And yet, in so far as one is alive, life will call. Society is
jealous of those who remain away from it, and will come knocking at the
door. If the hero. . . is unwilling, the disturber suffers an ugly
shock; but on the other hand, if the summoned one is only delayed—sealed
in by the beatitude of the state of perfect being (which resembles
death)—an apparent rescue is effected, and the adventurer returns."[/quote]

In DA2- Although not in the correct order of things the summons by the Viscount can be seen in some playthroughs as this. Hawke's rich and has a mansion and the Viscount pulls them into the whole qunari situation. But otherwise I don't see this in DA2.

In ME3- I don't see it.

Crossing the Return Threshold-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]  "The returning hero, to complete his adventure, must survive the impact
of the world. Many failures attest to the difficulties of this
life-affirmative threshold. The first problem of the returning hero is
to accept as real, after an experience of the soul-satisfying vision of
fulfillment, the passing joys and sorrows, banalities and noisy
obscenities of life. Why re-enter such a world? Why attempt to make
plausible, or even interesting, to men and women consumed with passion,
the experience of transcendental bliss? As dreams that were momentous by
night may seem simply silly in the light of day, so the poet and the
prophet can discover themselves playing the idiot before a jury of sober
eyes. The easy thing is to commit the whole community to the devil and
retire again into the heavenly rock dwelling, close the door, and make
it fast. But if some spiritual obstetrician has drawn the shimenawa
across the retreat, then the work of representing eternity in time, and
perceiving in time eternity, cannot be avoided" The hero returns to the world of common day and must accept it as real.[/quote]

In DA2- Doesn't happen. If I give BioWare maxium credit I'd say DA2 is actually an attempt to tell a story that rather successfully subverts this bit. If I give BioWare no credit at all there's really no plot at all to return from. If I were Obi-Wan Kenobi though I'd say from a certain point of view Hawke's disappearance could be one where Hawke goes into obscurity as a dirt farmer some where but wiser for the journey. RPG's, huh?

In ME3- ...there isn't a returning hero...

Master of Two Worlds-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]"Freedom to pass back and forth across the world division, from the
perspective of the apparitions of time to that of the causal deep and
back—not contaminating the principles of the one with those of the
other, yet permitting the mind to know the one by virtue of the other—is
the talent of the master. The Cosmic Dancer, declares Nietzsche, does
not rest heavily in a single spot, but gaily, lightly, turns and leaps
from one position to another. It is possible to speak from only one
point at a time, but that does not invalidate the insights of the rest.
The individual, through prolonged psychological disciplines, gives up
completely all attachment to his personal limitations, idiosyncrasies,
hopes and fears, no longer resists the self-annihilation that is
prerequisite to rebirth in the realization of truth, and so becomes
ripe, at last, for the great at-one-ment. His personal ambitions being
totally dissolved, he no longer tries to live but willingly relaxes to
whatever may come to pass in him; he becomes, that is to say, an
anonymity.[/quote]

In DA2- Again that disappearance of Hawke until contradicted in lore can be read any way the player pleases.

In ME3- Again... ya gotta return...

Finally we have...

Freedom to Live-

What does Campbell say?

[quote]"The hero is the champion of things becoming, not of things become,
because he is. 'Before Abraham was, I AM.' He does not mistake apparent
changelessness in time for the permanence of Being, nor is he fearful of
the next moment (or of the 'other thing'), as destroying the permanent
with its change. 'Nothing retains its own form; but Nature, the greater
renewer, ever makes up forms from forms. Be sure there's nothing
perishes in the whole universe; it does but vary and renew its form.'
Thus the next moment is permitted to come to pass."[/quote]

In DA2- Again until contradicted the player can conjure up any ending they want for Hawke's disappearance. It's so vague it can mean anything. It's likely that vague precisely for that purpose.

In ME3- Actually, from a certain point of view all the endings can be seen as this. In all three endings Shepard chooses to sacrifice themselves and that shows fearlessness from death. Their actions then in turn allow the galaxy the freedom to live. And in the best case ending for Destroy we see Shepard inhale sharply which could actually be a literal example of a fearlessness in death leading to a freedom to live their life.

So you see the Hero's Journey is merely a grouping of events that nearly every story uses in some aspect. Campbell's work focused on myths but their so general that they can and have been used to describe many stories. There is no guideline to the hero's journey.

There is a BioWare forumla though but that's a different thing all together. And I think they've been making decent breaks from it since DA:O... to the point that maybe they should return to it a bit.