136 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Why can't Hawke's decisions to help be impactful on their own? The most important thing about the DA2 ending was the Champion of Kirkwall chose a side, not that his side won. It accomplished what it was supposed to. The decision affects Hawke personally determining who he is and what he stands for. That's the repercussion. The small interactions with Grace, the magistrate's son, companions, etc. ultimately shape Hawke's views on every issue in Kirkwall and those attitudes propel him to act as he does, and why he acted, why he sided with the Mages or Templars, his approach to the situation as the Champion of Kirkwall before it imploded was of great interest to the Chantry. It's the entire basis of the story so to say Hawke's choices don't mean anything is, in my opinion, incorrect.

What I mean is, whether you help Grace or not, she always gets recaptured and ends up blaming Hawke.  Every time.  However you handle the magistrate's son, nothing comes of it, neither him owing Hawke a favor nor holding a grudge.  It was the sameness of the journey, not the journey itself that's the problem.  It's not a matter of how spectacular the view is, it's that every path leads to the same view.  

Even at the very end, when Hawke has chosen a side and the dust has settled, the differnece amounted to the Templars either bowing respectfully or backing away fearfully.   

If, perhaps, Hawke collected mementoes from his adventuires, different ones based on choices made, that would feel like each Hawke was unique.

If people Hawke helped in the past would turn up later as friends or adversaries based on how Hawke treated them.

 That's the kind of thing I suspect people missed.  Not decisions that could shake the foundation of natons or save/destroy the world.  Just decisions that make the character feel like our character  If Hawke spends ten years living in the same city, he should have put down roots.  Actions taken should have had ripples.  And we didnt' all take the same actions, so the ripples should be different.

[Foolsfolly]

iakus wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Why can't Hawke's decisions to help be impactful on their own? The most important thing about the DA2 ending was the Champion of Kirkwall chose a side, not that his side won. It accomplished what it was supposed to. The decision affects Hawke personally determining who he is and what he stands for. That's the repercussion. The small interactions with Grace, the magistrate's son, companions, etc. ultimately shape Hawke's views on every issue in Kirkwall and those attitudes propel him to act as he does, and why he acted, why he sided with the Mages or Templars, his approach to the situation as the Champion of Kirkwall before it imploded was of great interest to the Chantry. It's the entire basis of the story so to say Hawke's choices don't mean anything is, in my opinion, incorrect.

What I mean is, whether you help Grace or not, she always gets recaptured and ends up blaming Hawke.  Every time.  However you handle the magistrate's son, nothing comes of it, neither him owing Hawke a favor nor holding a grudge.  It was the sameness of the journey, not the journey itself that's the problem.  It's not a matter of how spectacular the view is, it's that every path leads to the same view.  

Even at the very end, when Hawke has chosen a side and the dust has settled, the differnece amounted to the Templars either bowing respectfully or backing away fearfully.   

If, perhaps, Hawke collected mementoes from his adventuires, different ones based on choices made, that would feel like each Hawke was unique.

If people Hawke helped in the past would turn up later as friends or adversaries based on how Hawke treated them.

 That's the kind of thing I suspect people missed.  Not decisions that could shake the foundation of natons or save/destroy the world.  Just decisions that make the character feel like our character  If Hawke spends ten years living in the same city, he should have put down roots.  Actions taken should have had ripples.  And we didnt' all take the same actions, so the ripples should be different.

The way the pre-release talk made it sound, to me at least, with the 'no ancient evil' stuff... I really thought we'd make enemies throughout the game and that would give you your end game. Do this and ****** off that guy, do this and now this guy wants you dead, etc. But each playthrough different choices allowed for a different end game with different characters against or standing with you.

It sounded like BioWare was doing an Obsidian game and I liked that a lot.

Didn't get that. Got the same ending regardess... ok in on Hawke was Viscount for a day or week or month and then disappeared like the other ending.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Could it be possible that the Hero's Journey is fine but Bioware are just not implementing it right?

[Foolsfolly]

^Reposting for ya.

[**Long quote removed by mod-- there's no need to repeat all of this!**]

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 17 janvier 2013 - 04:01 .

[caridounette]

In Exile wrote...

caridounette wrote...
Lets take for exemple DA2. I do command Bioware for trying to do something diffrent then the classical 'heroe-on-a-mission' template. But many of the things that bother me from the game actually have to do with its lack of direction.

...

In DAO, I took time to figure waht my character wanted in life but it was obvious enough that all taht would have to wait until after the Bligh. But in DA2, it was always conflicting with the apparent absence of goal... like why am I doing this if I always wanted to do that instead.ding).

In DA:O, you bought the following things:

1) Your character wants to stop the Blight.
2) Your character, specifically, wants to stop the blight in Ferelden.
3) Your character, more than just stop the blight in Ferelden, wants to save Ferelden (the human nation, specifically). There's no option to not bother with the civil war.
4) Your character, at the Frostback mountains, chooses to deal with Orzammar's political BS instead of run off to Orlais.

There were lots of other things to do after Ostagar. You could have gone to Orlais. You could have rallied all of the non-human nations, and them allowed archdemon to devastate the human lands until it showed itself and then use your non-human military force.

DA:O didn't give you direction - it gave you a hook (the Blight) and then a lot of limitations. And you accepted those.

DA2 gave you a hook - your family - and then lots of options, like power/wealth/status/coin, etc. The main quests don't ever have a justification in Bioware games beyond they're the main quests.

There wasn't a lack of direction in DA2 - most players just didn't buy the reason they had to make up for themselves.

Still, because you cant, in the game environment, do all that you like, or think your character would like, there needs to be an easily acceptable reason to pospone what you want and do what youre lead to by the story. All I was pointing is that the heroes journey is one of those easily accepted formula to keep you on track in a linear game world. Maybe cause were so used to it. 

Game world is always about mascarading as if you had choices and giving you excuses for not having those choices your mind would go to when you try to stay true to the character. 

of course, you have to accept the hook, be it duty to the Warden or to you family.

In DA2, it wasnt that I didnt want to help my family, but I had lots of ideas as to how I could do that without all hell going loose. So many times, I felt forced in some avenues, but not because of a lack of other choices but because of a lack of game possibilties.

In DAO, my wardens had no better idea to protect Ferelden from the Blight ( once they accepted the duty, of course) so following the plan made sense out of having nothing better to propose (for most of my characters, they either had no status or experience or status that made them care for the quest. My dwarf was the hardest to make fit and i had troubles finishing her playthrough).

So its less the initial hook that i was a problem for me but how the story could camouflage the fact that you cant do what you want in the game world as it evolves.

[lil yonce]

iakus wrote...

What I mean is, whether you help Grace or not, she always gets recaptured and ends up blaming Hawke.  Every time.  However you handle the magistrate's son, nothing comes of it, neither him owing Hawke a favor nor holding a grudge.  It was the sameness of the journey, not the journey itself that's the problem.  It's not a matter of how spectacular the view is, it's that every path leads to the same view.

But why is Hawke's character defined by Grace escaping Kirkwall or the Magister owing him a favor? Why aren't his attitudes that you decide enough to craft his character? World reactvity doesn't define character. Being owed a favor by a Magister isn't as important as Hawke's decision in the moment to spare a dangerous mage in hope of personal gain. The choice itself was far more important than the result. Same thing with Grace. It doesn't matter that she gets captured and blames Hawke. That's required by the plot. What matters is Hawke's attitude towards her and the Mage-Templar situation after capture and the player decides that. It's a character driven story and these things take place over anything else and I don't have a problem with that. With an abundance of pathways to follow the game is no longer primarily character driven, it's plot driven and that's not what the story of DA2 is about.

Even at the very end, when Hawke has chosen a side and the dust has settled, the differnece amounted to the Templars either bowing respectfully or backing away fearfully.

The Templars were going to win because they had the numbers. The largest unit of Templars in Thedas were not going to lose, so Hawke taking a stand for or against the Templars is what's important, not what the Templars do after the Circle's been annuled. The focus in never on what they do, it's always about what Hawke chose to do in that situation and why he made that decision. That's all Cassandra cares about. How you roleplayed Hawke's feelings toward Mage-Templar, everything you put into his attitudes and values over the course of the game is what's important.

If, perhaps, Hawke collected mementoes from his adventuires, different ones based on choices made, that would feel like each Hawke was unique. If people Hawke helped in the past would turn up later as friends or
adversaries based on how Hawke treated them. That's the kind of thing I suspect people missed.  Not decisions that could shake the foundation of natons or save/destroy the world.  Just decisions that make the character feel like our character  If Hawke spends ten years living in the same city, he should have put down roots.  Actions taken should have had ripples. And we didnt' all take the same actions, so the ripples should be different.

Mementos? My upstanding and sarcastic Spirt Healer Mage Hawke who sided with the Templars felt like my Hawke. I made him who he was. He felt Anders was an extremist and didn't believe in his Mage agenda despite being a free mage. Ultimately, he put the city of  Kirkwall before the mages. His attitudes and feelings I decided made him my Hawke.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 18 janvier 2013 - 12:46 .

[Renmiri1]

If, perhaps, Hawke collected mementoes from his adventuires, different ones based on choices made, that would feel like each Hawke was unique. If people Hawke helped in the past would turn up later as friends or
adversaries based on how Hawke treated them. That's the kind of thing I suspect people missed. Not decisions that could shake the foundation of natons or save/destroy the world. Just decisions that make the character feel like our character If Hawke spends ten years living in the same city, he should have put down roots. Actions taken should have had ripples. And we didnt' all take the same actions, so the ripples should be different.

Mementos ?
oh you mean like the Witcher's cards or achievements ? You actually get achievements.

Later see characters as friends or foes ? Plenty of that
The Dwarf that offers you a loan on Act 1 will later attack you on Act 3 if you never talked to him, otherwise he will come collecting the loan on Act 2. Bone Pit mine owner. Fenris...

decisions that could shake the foundation of natons ?
A mage Templar war and heading off the Qunari come to mind

he should have put down roots
So buying a house and getting a title were what ? Attempts to escape the city ?

Actions taken should have had ripples
They do, the idol you retrieve on Act 1 will poison the mind of Meredith and help cause the mess on Act 3. The city is not a Qunari city because you saved it on Act 2. Alain and Keran help you find your kidnapped friend because you helped them on the first 2 acts.

And we didnt' all take the same actions, so the ripples should be different
You have a minor point there. Most of the actions we take are pretty much "mandatory". But so was fighting the Blight, fighting at the Lands meet and attacking the Archdemon at Denerim. Strategically Orzumar was a much better place to fight the AD, as it was well fortified, full of people experienced in fighting darkspawn and was a city that had withstood a Blight siege before. The shenanigans at the Lands meet ? If you just went to Orlais and came back with a platoon of Wardens you could have taken Loghain and fought the blight with much better odds.

TL;DR
Your frustration with DA2 prevented you from seeing the game for what it was and enjoying it for the good game that was, not for the DAO Replay that it was not.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:17 .

[Nerosole]

I've been playing RPGs since i got my hands on my dad's NES. My dad and uncle played D&D and was pretty interested in the way RPGS were handled even then. Here's the thing: I am *sick* of being the typical cookiecutter hero. I am *sick* of having to "saaaave the wooooorld". The curtain's closing on the thinking that games *must* be written like that. At least, i hope.

It's rare even that we get to take a villainous or selfish action at just even the end of the game now, to get some sort of variety. It's mostly just replaced with the beat-to-death "what a tweest!" ending.

To address your concern OP, yes i have also noticed striking similarities between storylines and even character cast. If you look at the foundations, even ME and DA:O are remarkably identical.

I thought that DA][ detached from that brilliantly. It most definitely took a great new direction away from that b.s. and toward a more personal story. Unfortunately, we know that a slew of other problems as well being rushed overall doomed it anway. Breaks my heart..

Modifié par Nerosole, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:14 .

[Reikilea]

Until Bioware invents a new Citizen Kane style narration for game (the impact on the storytelling the film had), everything will be hero´s journey.

Same with films. They are all using this troope. Except art cinema.

Modifié par Reikilea, 18 janvier 2013 - 03:17 .

[Captain Cornhole]

Nerosole wrote...
To address your concern OP, yes i have also noticed striking similarities between storylines and even character cast. If you look at the foundations, even ME and DA:O are remarkably identical.

The great thing about DA2 was that each companion had some sort of role in the over-arching story of Hawke's stay in Kirkwall. Sure a few of the character were walking tropes, however their backgrounds where all woven into the various thematics that where presented in the story, each of them had an opinion to offer and a role that progressed the story in various ways.

With ME2's squadmates the majority of them where completely detatched from the main story. And for some of them like Mordin that is what made their character's interesting and worthwhile. Thane and Samara where entirely the same character, the hyper religious assassin. One way to improve their back stories and character is to give them some sort of role in the story of ME2. While other characters like Zaeed and Kasumi worked because they had their own distinct personalities despite being from similar character tropes and having no essential role in the story.

Modifié par Captain Cornhole, 19 janvier 2013 - 04:59 .

[AlexanderCousland]

caridounette wrote...


DA2 gave you a hook - your family - and then lots of options, like power/wealth/status/coin, etc. The main quests don't ever have a justification in Bioware games beyond they're the main quests.

Not wise to bank the success of your game on a Family that the Player may or may not care about.

[AlexanderCousland]

Youth4Ever wrote..
But why is Hawke's character defined by Grace escaping Kirkwall or the Magister owing him a favor? Why aren't his attitudes that you decide enough to craft his character? World reactvity doesn't define character. Being owed a favor by a Magister isn't as important as Hawke's decision in the moment to spare a dangerous mage in hope of personal gain. The choice itself was far more important than the result. Same thing with Grace. It doesn't matter that she gets captured and blames Hawke. That's required by the plot. What matters is Hawke's attitude towards her and the Mage-Templar situation after capture and the player decides that. It's a character driven story and these things take place over anything else and I don't have a problem with that. With an abundance of pathways to follow the game is no longer primarily character driven, it's plot driven and that's not what the story of DA2 is about.

 In other words....

All the matter' s is how you feel about the events and  your ability to effect them  doesnt matter?

Hell, I might as well watch a Movie.