92 réponses à ce sujet

[Tiamatshade]

Rounded, I'll admit to that as well. I wasn't sure if it was just my lobbies or a trend.

I'll try to join as my Fury, in the hopes that I get a lobby with one, maybe two other biotics, so all three of us can have a grand ol' time. But most of the time, I'm finding I'm the only biotic. All weapon classes. Rather than try to run into melee to compete for kills, I'll... yeah, switch to my sniper kit.

I really do wish I could play my Fury with other biotics more. Maybe I missed the boat.

[Jagpferd]

Cyonan wrote...

Jagpferd wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Jagpferd wrote...

I agree with the points you used Curunen and if the next Mass effect game had destructible environments then that would be absolutely great. Fine the general cover from the beginning of game won't be there anymore however that doesn't mean that you couldn't use cover that is created from the destruction. Right now everything looks too pristine.

Broken bits of chest high walls don't really tend to make for very good cover.

Well, I don't believe that would be too much of a problem as the next mass effect game will be using the same engine as used in the battlefield series. In my opinion they do a good job with the whole destructive/cover system.

They're two different games, however.

In Mass Effect they always need to ensure that there is cover large enough for you to use as actual hard cover, and that there is a good amount of it.

Battlefield isn't a cover based shoot so they don't need to care about that.

That is true however with the new system don't you think that the whole combat/cover system will be completely different compared to now?

[RoundedPlanet88]

Tiamatshade wrote...

Rounded, I'll admit to that as well. I wasn't sure if it was just my lobbies or a trend.

I'll try to join as my Fury, in the hopes that I get a lobby with one, maybe two other biotics, so all three of us can have a grand ol' time. But most of the time, I'm finding I'm the only biotic. All weapon classes. Rather than try to run into melee to compete for kills, I'll... yeah, switch to my sniper kit.

I really do wish I could play my Fury with other biotics more. Maybe I missed the boat.

Get a group of friends together and do it, or play a fast detonator. Fury works rather well on smaller maps, anhillation field primes and lets you detonate before someone can overide usually. AJA specced for pull can as well to some degree, and drell adept can through spawn nuking. At that point it becomes a question of whos faster, and the drell/ fury win hands down usually, again on smaller maps.

[Crocodiles]

It would be cool if they gave biotic powers rank evolutions that gave the option of detonating tech

[RoundedPlanet88]

Crocodiles wrote...

It would be cool if they gave biotic powers rank evolutions that gave the option of detonating tech

? you mean if biotics detonated biotics first, then with appropriate evolutions detonated tech powers/ammo?
Lets be honest, while that would be intresting, who would ever choose that evolution?

[Catastrophy]

Cyonan wrote...

Jagpferd wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Jagpferd wrote...

I agree with the points you used Curunen and if the next Mass effect game had destructible environments then that would be absolutely great. Fine the general cover from the beginning of game won't be there anymore however that doesn't mean that you couldn't use cover that is created from the destruction. Right now everything looks too pristine.

Broken bits of chest high walls don't really tend to make for very good cover.

Well, I don't believe that would be too much of a problem as the next mass effect game will be using the same engine as used in the battlefield series. In my opinion they do a good job with the whole destructive/cover system.

They're two different games, however.

In Mass Effect they always need to ensure that there is cover large enough for you to use as actual hard cover, and that there is a good amount of it.

Battlefield isn't a cover based shoot so they don't need to care about that.

How often do you use hard cover? I for my part do it not as much as I used to in the beginning. It might simply be done away with if the gameplay goes another direction.

[Sailears]

Ok let me try to give some feedback.

First - yes I forgot about tech bursts and overriding detonations - my point of view is who cares, it's still a detonation dealing damage - cooldowns are short so just detonate again.

Second - comparing stamina bar to skyrim. I knew something like that would be brought up; it doesn't change the fact it makes perfect sense both lore wise and gameplay wise for biotics.

Third - destructible environments and cover: I alluded to future games, of course it would not work at all in ME3MP. It would require a change in the cover system. And as stated, how many players use "hard" cover now, aside from hacking objectives?

Fourth - disabling enemies trivialising the game - example of 4 players disabling 4 praetorians. If this was at the cost of dealing any damage, what is the problem? If the kit does not have any detonation options or weapon damage boosting options, and relies on pure crowd controlling/disabling, then sure, go ahead and disable 4 praetorians - they'll still be alive while you're busy dealing with other enemies running at you.
Also to extend that sort of mechanic is best left till ME4, when the entire gameplay can be ovrehauled. Still, to have more pure crowd control options would be welcome in me3mp.



Finally as I said a lot of this is stuff to think about for ME4 - too many limitations to apply certain things in ME3 now.

What is comes down to is for classes that can manipulate mass (and energy) of any objects, resorting to simple detonations feels a waste of potential.

[Catastrophy]

Curunen wrote...

Ok let me try to give some feedback.

First - yes I forgot about tech bursts and overriding detonations - my point of view is who cares, it's still a detonation dealing damage - cooldowns are short so just detonate again.

Second - comparing stamina bar to skyrim. I knew something like that would be brought up; it doesn't change the fact it makes perfect sense both lore wise and gameplay wise for biotics.

Third - destructible environments and cover: I alluded to future games, of course it would not work at all in ME3MP. It would require a change in the cover system. And as stated, how many players use "hard" cover now, aside from hacking objectives?

Fourth - disabling enemies trivialising the game - example of 4 players disabling 4 praetorians. If this was at the cost of dealing any damage, what is the problem? If the kit does not have any detonation options or weapon damage boosting options, and relies on pure crowd controlling/disabling, then sure, go ahead and disable 4 praetorians - they'll still be alive while you're busy dealing with other enemies running at you.
Also to extend that sort of mechanic is best left till ME4, when the entire gameplay can be ovrehauled. Still, to have more pure crowd control options would be welcome in me3mp.



Finally as I said a lot of this is stuff to think about for ME4 - too many limitations to apply certain things in ME3 now.

What is comes down to is for classes that can manipulate mass (and energy) of any objects, resorting to simple detonations feels a waste of potential.

Also, I expect the next ME game being able to handle more than 8 enemies at a time. I like the idea of more powerful biotic powers. As it is, biotics have become quite gimped unless you go with a balanced team.

[Blarg]

I agree. Compared to tech powers, and even combat powers, biotics are only really used for explosions. What if (and bear with me for a second while I spout a crazy idea) we removed combo detonations entirely in ME4, while compensating with large buffs to individual powers (i.e. massive increase to Throw's force/Singularity's hold duration/etc)?

I like the destructible environments too. The only issue is that maps would be wiped clean of cover by wave 3 of Platinum. What's needed is a general reduction in large explosions (as mentioned above) and much larger maps. So, ME4 only, really.

[RoundedPlanet88]

Curunen wrote...

Ok let me try to give some feedback.

First - yes I forgot about tech bursts and overriding detonations - my point of view is who cares, it's still a detonation dealing damage - cooldowns are short so just detonate again.

Second - comparing stamina bar to skyrim. I knew something like that would be brought up; it doesn't change the fact it makes perfect sense both lore wise and gameplay wise for biotics.

Third - destructible environments and cover: I alluded to future games, of course it would not work at all in ME3MP. It would require a change in the cover system. And as stated, how many players use "hard" cover now, aside from hacking objectives?

Fourth - disabling enemies trivialising the game - example of 4 players disabling 4 praetorians. If this was at the cost of dealing any damage, what is the problem? If the kit does not have any detonation options or weapon damage boosting options, and relies on pure crowd controlling/disabling, then sure, go ahead and disable 4 praetorians - they'll still be alive while you're busy dealing with other enemies running at you.
Also to extend that sort of mechanic is best left till ME4, when the entire gameplay can be ovrehauled. Still, to have more pure crowd control options would be welcome in me3mp.



Finally as I said a lot of this is stuff to think about for ME4 - too many limitations to apply certain things in ME3 now.

What is comes down to is for classes that can manipulate mass (and energy) of any objects, resorting to simple detonations feels a waste of potential.

First of all- tech powers often have shorter CD`s, which means that your essentially screwed.
2.) this could be very abusable, but could also make for more balanced gameplay, I`m kinda conflicted on it, and would rather reserve judgment until i could see a bit more in terms of details (which means notime soon esseentially)
3.) again, this could be abusable, espicially by the Geth. I would have to actually see how this system was implmented before I could really agree on disagree.
4.) Pure crowd control is severly limited, mainly due to there only being 8 enemies at once I suspect. (this also applies to sabotage nerf). In a intelectuall sort of way, I think that the current CC abilities are actually rather well balanced, i.e. I can`t think of a better alternative off the top of my head.

[razrblack]

Frostbite 2 or whatever version is available at the time ME4 goes into developement would make a lot of stuff possible like destructible environments with dynamic cover system. Hell, even vehicles are an option at this point.

As for myself I run a Human Adept with Disciple (sometimes a backup Predator) and I'm ok with that. I do use a lot of BEs to deal with big armored targets, but the Disciple still is my main gun. With such a loadout I don't have extremely low cooldowns and I usually find myself running for the nearest ammo crate to refill. Then again I don't play to win, I just play to have fun (that's why I touched gold matches a bunch of times and most of them unknowingly) so dps isn't a concern as long as I have fun and do my part for the team. That's why I use the Disciple too. I'm not that good anyway to actually be competitive in gold or platinum.

[Sailears]

RoundedPlanet88

Fair point on the tech detonations, I can appreciate how annoying it can be. I tend to run with incendiary or similar ammo on adepts anyway, so usually end up setting off my own fire explosions before BEs, so in that respect it doesn't bother me so much.

Regarding stamina - best analogy I can give is the current phase disruptor mechanics (before this crazy buff). You can fire of 3 shots (powers), then a delay, then the shields (stamina) recharges over ~10 seconds (maybe less, maybe more - depends on the gameplay).

With the ability to manipulate environments (lift and throw crates around or something), I imagine the entire combat system would be different, so you can't really apply it to the ME3MP situation. Yes it would not work at all in the current game.

I can't really argue the 4th point - would be nice to have some more options, but tricky to balance with current combat model.

[JusticarStef]

I totally agree with you OP.

I think this is the reason why I have shied away from playing biotics and greatly prefer tech characters now.

[Sailears]

blaaaaaaaaaarg wrote...

I agree. Compared to tech powers, and even combat powers, biotics are only really used for explosions. What if (and bear with me for a second while I spout a crazy idea) we removed combo detonations entirely in ME4, while compensating with large buffs to individual powers (i.e. massive increase to Throw's force/Singularity's hold duration/etc)?

I like the destructible environments too. The only issue is that maps would be wiped clean of cover by wave 3 of Platinum. What's needed is a general reduction in large explosions (as mentioned above) and much larger maps. So, ME4 only, really.

I think what would be a good compromise is that ONLY spatial distortion fields (reave, warp, and to some extent singularity) can prime AND detonate - you need at least one spatial distortion field in the combo to create a detonation.

So warp -> throw is fine. Pull -> warp would be fine. But Pull -> Throw should not detonate.
Kinetic fields (mass raising) and telekinesis (mass lowering) must be comboed with a spatial distortion field (shifting mass effect field), in order to produce a biotic explosion.


Now, if you ugrade a power to create DoT effects (like pull DoT or Lash DoT), that is in essence a spatial distortion field, so then you CAN prime and detonate with it.

ME2 had it right in that way - reave or warp would be necessary for detonations.

Modifié par Curunen, 15 janvier 2013 - 11:13 .

[darkblade]

The only thing that I don't like is that every combo does the same thing.

Paladin is fun because you can pick a combo for the mob at hand. Armor? We cryosploding and firesploding. Shields with tech bursting and cryospoldin

Imagine if different combos of biotic powers did different things.

Like Pull+throw=super toss physics
But Warp+throw = implosin
Reave+throw = restores a block of health

etc..we'd have to learn the combos and all the adepts would play different.

Modifié par darkblade, 15 janvier 2013 - 11:54 .

[Moby]

Curunen wrote...

The success of every adept kit revolves around the priming and detonation of biotic explosions.

There are very few exceptions to this which I will list:
- Direct damage (Ex-Cerberus)

wat

[Zero132132]

Curunen wrote...

Anyway, let me start off by stating:
The success of every adept kit revolves around the priming and detonation of biotic explosions.

Didn't even need to go further.

Explosions are cool, Michael Bay, but if that's what you're building your entire playstyle around when there are plenty of fantastic light weight weapons, then you're doing it wrong. If you think the only purpose that any of them have is to set up and detonate biotic explosions, you're doing it wrong. If you think that none of them have useful secondary effects related to crowd control, stagger, debuffs, etc., then you're doing it wrong.

That's the real problem with Biotics; if you think they suck, you're doing it wrong.

I know that score means nothing, but still:


I'm not saying that Biotics are great the way that the Geth Infiltrator is great, but they're not weak, people just consistently play them poorly, or with the same fundamental misunderstanding that the OP has; that they can only do 'splosions, and if anything interrupts that, they suck.

[Sailears]

MofuggerX - I'm referring to the fact that smash deals enough direct damage on its own without needing to detonate singularity or lash.

Zero132132 - It seems you ought to read further, because you are completely misunderstanding this thread. Either that, or I'm not making things clear enough. I can play every single adept apart from the volus and slasher (lack of experience) very well on every difficulty, thank you. Ok my AA might be a bit rusty; I'd be wary of taking that to platinum, but I digress. I know they can all beast through the game on any difficulty.
Ok, disregard stagger for the minute - a useful feature, but hardly unique to biotic powers. Loads of powers, melee, weapons and so on can cause stagger, so that is beside the point.

Aside from stagger, what useful side effects? Pull, singularity, lash and lifting shockwave can suspend health - sure that's fun and useful on occasion (such as saving people from being stomped, or ccing a bunch of phantoms). Throw can kill some unshielded mooks, same as shooting them. Stasis is one of the only pure crowd controlling powers, given the explosion is nothing special, and it works on a wide variety of targets.
Sure, viable on gold (first half of a reaper/collector match in the case of pull), but utterly meaningless when it gets to platinum. EDIT: I should say, stasis and lash are fine because of working through shields.

Debuffs? The only meaningful ones are those that increase damage done by weapons or explosions for the most part (or melee if you're running a niche build). Movement speed debuff is unique to dark channel, and hardly used.

Biotics do not suck, where in any of my posts have I said that? They are monotonous. Crowd control effects are secondary to biotic explosion and/or weapon damage.

Edit: and I should say if you haven't read beyond that, you haven't seen that I frequently use TECH ammo on biotic classes, thereby gimping my own explosion potential anyway.
I prefer to run them all cqc for the most part anyway, relying more on weapon damage than explosions.

darkblade wrote...

The only thing that I don't like is that every combo does the same thing.

Paladin
is fun because you can pick a combo for the mob at hand. Armor? We
cryosploding and firesploding. Shields with tech bursting and
cryospoldin

Imagine if different combos of biotic powers did different things.

Like Pull+throw=super toss physics
But Warp+throw = implosin
Reave+throw = restores a block of health

etc..we'd have to learn the combos and all the adepts would play different.

Now this is a sensible idea, thank you for the contribution.

Modifié par Curunen, 16 janvier 2013 - 12:50 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Zero132132 wrote...

I'm not saying that Biotics are great the way that the Geth Infiltrator is great, but they're not weak, people just consistently play them poorly, or with the same fundamental misunderstanding that the OP has; that they can only do 'splosions, and if anything interrupts that, they suck.

Biotics are weak dude.  They are weak because of certain game mechanics. That is the reason they are a rare breed in multiplayer.  I've gone through lots of games where I have not gotten many biotic explosions because of tech power spam, tech ammo spam, people targeting the primed target,  the insane dodge rate of projectile powers, ect.   Nothing about any of that implies anyone is playing a biotic poorly.  Those are all beyond the contol of the biotic.

Anyways, if Bioware's goal for the game is to drive people who love "space magic" away from the game they are on the right road.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 16 janvier 2013 - 12:26 .

[The fool you should have eaten]

blaaaaaaaaaarg wrote...

I agree. Compared to tech powers, and even combat powers, biotics are only really used for explosions. What if (and bear with me for a second while I spout a crazy idea) we removed combo detonations entirely in ME4, while compensating with large buffs to individual powers (i.e. massive increase to Throw's force/Singularity's hold duration/etc)?

I like the destructible environments too. The only issue is that maps would be wiped clean of cover by wave 3 of Platinum. What's needed is a general reduction in large explosions (as mentioned above) and much larger maps. So, ME4 only, really.

100% behind this idea.  Also an increase in cooldowns (not to ME1 levels) would make for a nice balance.  Oh and if they don't want to do that the other idea about have unique kinds of BE's is cool too.

[Blarg]

The fool you should have eaten wrote...

100% behind this idea.  Also an increase in cooldowns (not to ME1 levels) would make for a nice balance.  Oh and if they don't want to do that the other idea about have unique kinds of BE's is cool too.

I like that unique BE idea. Maybe something like an implosion for a detonation with Singularity, or disintegration and armour weakening from a Warp explosion. More force from Throw, lifting and slamming from Pull, restored barriers for all the team's biotics from a BC explosion, flash freezing from a Stasis explosion...

So many possibilities!

[Deerber]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

I'm not saying that Biotics are great the way that the Geth Infiltrator is great, but they're not weak, people just consistently play them poorly, or with the same fundamental misunderstanding that the OP has; that they can only do 'splosions, and if anything interrupts that, they suck.

Biotics are weak dude.  They are weak because of certain game mechanics. That is the reason they are a rare breed in multiplayer.  I've gone through lots of games where I have not gotten many biotic explosions because of tech power spam, tech ammo spam, people targeting the primed target,  the insane dodge rate of projectile powers, ect.   Nothing about any of that implies anyone is playing a biotic poorly.  Those are all beyond the contol of the biotic.

Anyways, if Bioware's goal for the game is to drive people who love "space magic" away from the game they are on the right road.

Not all biotics are weak. When people say that, I tend to remind them that the fastest platinum solo has been done with a biotic-heavy class, the fury. Other than that, the Drell Adept and the Batarian Slasher are monsters of a kit as well.

You can see a trend here: whichever class needs two cooldown-dependent powers to set off a BE is screwed and is not gonna have a good damage output.

Whatever class only needs one CD-dependent power, can be extremely effective if played correctly.

So that's the problem: you cannot just buff all biotics, like by buffing BEs radius, or damage. Because that would make some kits - the three I mentioned, mainly - waaaaay too powerful.

Anyway, returning on topic, @Curunen:

I only read through half your post, but I think I can see where that is going. Yes, I agree pretty much fully with you. Biotics should be extremly powerful crowd controller, like they were in ME1. That would make up for a more diverse, and interesting, gameplay.

It wouldn't even be too hard to balance them - just make their powers CDs very very high. That way, they have to be careful about when they use those powers.

But. This would be too much of a change to ask for, in ME3 MP lifespan. All we can ask for, is that ME4 reverts the adepts to what they were in ME1, where they were much more interesting to play: crowd controller gods.

Modifié par Deerber, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:26 .

[Bleachrude]

As mentioned, curunen, your ideas don't work for the simple fact that we don't have enough enemies on screen...


Crowd control makes more sense in a SP campaign where only one player is facing down 5-6 enemies and using a CC power to hamper 3 is very good.

The same power in a 4 player co-op game is simply broken since you aren't going to have 4 times the number of enemies but 3 at most but more likely only twice the number of enemies...

Prime example: Tech power sabotage.

In the SP, sabotage is strong but somewhat balanced in that, in most cases, only Tali is going to be using that power. In the MP, that selfsame power literally trivalised the geth. Sure, it didn't do any damage directly (DPS on sabotage is 0 but pre nerf sabotage wa sundoubtedly the strongest power in the MP

Stasis was the same way...4 AA versus cerebus pre patch1.0 was easymode thanks to the short cooldown on stasis and the size of the BE radius and the fact that pretty much every enemy in the faction got bent over. The ONLY reason why people failed with the 4 AA versus cerebus was if they rambo and got surprised.

4 people watching each others back and communicating? Frankly, on gold you shouldn't even hit shieldgate...

Modifié par Bleachrude, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:21 .

[The fool you should have eaten]

Bleachrude wrote...

As mentioned, curunen, your ideas don't work for the simple fact that we don't have enough enemies on screen...


Crowd control makes more sense in a SP campaign where only one player is facing down 5-6 enemies and using a CC power to hamper 3 is very good.

The same power in a 4 player co-op game is simply broken since you aren't going to have 4 times the number of enemies but 3 at most but more likely only twice the number of enemies...

<_<  Go back. Read the OP again.  He is suggesting that this be something that can be learned from the evolution of how this game plays.  Knowledge that stemmed from the multiplayer aspect which has evolved fairly constantly, allowing for Bioware to help Biotics be more unique , and less one dimensional explosions in future games. 

Did I do that justice?  I am hoping that I didn't put too much of my own voice into this. 

In fact, allowing for better CC biotics in the future could allow for more intense gameplay with more enemies.  See this is why this thread is useful, issues like the one that you mentioned come up.

[Bleachrude]

You can not simply ADD more enemies either though.

Adding more enemies on screen affects the damage economy as well...if you double the number of enemies on screeen, what does this mean for characters that dont have any CC abilities?