92 réponses à ce sujet

[MattyDCB]

Yes.

[Sailears]

Thanks for the continued replies, lots of interesting discussion.

Yes the number of enemies on screen can be an issue especially with the current combat model, and I'm not sure how to remedy that at the moment.


Let me be explicit with some of the character playstyles (the most efficient ones):

Human adept - the very definition of Biotic Explosion; huge and frequent detonations.

Drell adept - where almost everyone... what's that quaint expression... ah yes, "circle jerks" about reave and cluster grenades - again, explosions. Even if you're a hipster using pull, it's still for the purpose of explosions.

N7 Fury - annihilation field, run around and spam throw. Incredibly monotonous. Dark channel DoT is an afterthought.

Asari Justicar - ok good reave stacking damage, and the bubble can provide a significant amount of defence. But, again what do we have - bubble/reave (or the opposite), pull/reave, pull/bubble, all detonations.

Asari adept - ok stasis is a good pure cc power, but then you've got the repetitive warp/throw/throw sequence against anything with armour.

Slasher - more explosions, I don't even need to go into this.

Volus - ok a bit more of support and crowd control - similar to the asari with stasis. Biotic orbs could be identical to warp for all I can see - a ball of blue debuffing stuff. A unique character, but does have a tech power.

Shaman - warp/shockwave, same as the human. Ok you're playing more with tankiness, weapon damage and melee here, but the detonations still apply.

Ex-Cerberus - smash is a damn good power on its own, with high damage and no need for detonation. Lash likewise is a good CC power that does not need to be used for detonation. A more unique character than all the others, HOWEVER, at its core efficiency there are still biotic explosions - singularity/lash, singularity/smash, lash/smash, smash/lash.


So you can see the problem? They are ALL bombers at heart - and for a class with the ability to manipulate mass this is a complete waste of potential.



What I'd like to see is a spectrum of playstyles, ranging from:

Pure damage - in the form of explosions, DoT, direct damage, mainly with some combination spatial distortion fields.
...
...
Half damage, half crowd control - a balanced kit.
...
...
Pure crowd control - relying on telekinetic effects, mass raising/lowering fields, and clever manipulation of the environment and/or enemies.


I like the idea of more varied explosions too, for the current ME3MP. Sure a throw detonation might send a target flying with extra force, and a stasis detonation temporarily applies the affect in a wide radius. That is good, and I'm glad it is already in the game. But these are such minor effects, they do not differentiate between different power combos enough.

Reave detonations should restore health; singularity detonations should implode, etc...

[HolyAvenger]

Your issue here is, and I've expounded on this on other threads, that DPS rules all. Already caster kits by and large struggle to keep up with weapon kits in terms outputting DPS. If you nerf their damage output even more, even if you give them extra CC or support or whatever, they'll be played even less.

The whole game style and balance needs an overhaul if one is going to make CC, healing, support and other roles on par with DPS. I've already made suggestions along those lines (limiting medigels, revives etc, or changing game modes). Simple changes to adept powers and explosions won't do it, imo.

[Sailears]

And a very good point too HolyAvenger.

I am only looking at this from the biotic perspective, but as you say there is a knock on effect for every aspect of combat, which is why it would not work with the current game. At the most we can have more unique explosions, a limited form of crowd control against armour, and minor debuffing.

But it is worth discussing for ME4, and if it provides some ideas for how to change certain mechanics (again taking into account the entire combat model) then this thread is serving its purpose.

[Volkai7]

Curunen wrote...
 The introduction of combo detonations now on everything, not just warp has further watered down the variety in powers we could have available.

This one point I must disagree with you on. Because of the value of biotic explosions, were Warp the only power to trigger them it would always be used by Adepts. The ability to detonate with other powers has expanded, NOT watered down, the variety in powers available and actively utilized by Adepts.

[Sailears]

Volkai7 - That is based on the fact that detonations > any other use of biotic powers, again limited by the combat mechanics.
If these mechanics were different, and biotic explosions were only one method of succeeding in combat, then there would be more variety with less detonations.

Modifié par Curunen, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:45 .

[jezcrow]

I think there are too many projectile powers. For example throw and pull especially ought to be instant hitscan type powers. If I want to fling a husk just before it jumps me, I want the effect to be instant, and not go through an interruptible animation.

Edit:
Also, instead of the stamina bar you mentioned.  Maybe there could be some form of charging mechanism when a power is cast, i.e. hold down the power button in the same way weapon shots are charged up and released.  The casting animation could begin, pause while charging, then complete.  
Imagine, a husk in front and a husk behind: two quick throws.  Now imagine, 8 husks in a mob closing in: 3 second charge up, and throw all of them at once.

Modifié par jezcrow, 16 janvier 2013 - 03:11 .

[Sailears]

Fantastic ideas jezcrow, I remember discussions about charging powers back in the ME2 forum.

And yes I agree, the projectiles are often making powers appear less than they actually are (if that makes any sense).


Take singularity for instance - look at the ME1 casting animation. That was some serious ****. Excellent sound and visual effects (yes SOUND effect, because you are displacing air in the room - don't anyone start complaining that there should be no sound).

Now look at ME2/3 - throwing a little blue ball that sticks to enemies (if they don't dodge it), dealing small damage and eventually ragdolling them. Sound effect does not do this power justice either.

If there were the charge up mechanics as you said, you could either instacast a very weak micro-singularity, which would function similar to how it is now, or charge up for an entire group lockdown, with the singularity being significantly more powerful.
Maybe this could be incorporated into a "stamina" bar as well?


Now regarding projectiles and trajectory of ragdolled targets, that should be straightforward - make the projectiles invisible and give them near-instant travel time. That way you can still aim up to the left of a trooper, lashing him in that direction, but it would appear to be a projectileless power.

Modifié par Curunen, 16 janvier 2013 - 03:30 .

[Fortack]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Your issue here is, and I've expounded on this on other threads, that DPS rules all. Already caster kits by and large struggle to keep up with weapon kits in terms outputting DPS. If you nerf their damage output even more, even if you give them extra CC or support or whatever, they'll be played even less.

That's bollocks. All Adepts have very good (potential) DPS but they need weapons like everyone else to dish out crazy amounts of damage. However, I don't think that is the problem at all. Personally I find using powers to increase your damage output only quite boring. The single most important thing I liked about biotics (in the previous game) is how they allowed you to play with your enemies in a rather sadistic way

Volkai7 wrote...

This one point I must disagree with you on. Because of the value of biotic explosions, were Warp the only power to trigger them it would always be used by Adepts. The ability to detonate with other powers has expanded, NOT watered down, the variety in powers available and actively utilized by Adepts.

Dunno if you played ME2 - where Warp was the only power you could use to trigger biotic explosions - but they were, most of the time, nowhere near the most effective way to deal with enemies. I really miss using the Pull-Throw combo to send enemies on a one way ticket to the moon; the Singularity-Shockwave combo to toss a group of enemies all over the place like insects; using Stasis to immobilize a single enemy for a long time (with damage immunity for the entire duration); Dominate to mess with enemy minds etc.

In ME2 biotic powers gave you options. In ME3 there is but one option > cast one biotic power + cast another = boom. There is no variety at all, it's braindeath bombing only.

Things won't change for this game and I doubt they will in the next one since it's being developed on an engine that runs on the ancient crap hardware of the current generation of consoles. Bioware has never utilized the full power of PC hardware, probably b/c they're scared that a different (and superior) version of the same game might ****** off their console customers, I dunno.

If ME4 will be available on the 360, PS3 or Wii U there won't be enough enemies to allow any form of decent crowd control. If ME4 is build for PC and/or next gen consoles they can easily multiply the number of enemies by 10 and then biotics might become fun again and allow us to play with our prey before sending them to the next world.

[jezcrow]

Curunen wrote...

Fantastic ideas jezcrow, I remember discussions about charging powers back in the ME2 forum.

And yes I agree, the projectiles are often making powers appear less than they actually are (if that makes any sense).


Take singularity for instance - look at the ME1 casting animation. That was some serious ****. Excellent sound and visual effects (yes SOUND effect, because you are displacing air in the room - don't anyone start complaining that there should be no sound).

Now look at ME2/3 - throwing a little blue ball that sticks to enemies (if they don't dodge it), dealing small damage and eventually ragdolling them. Sound effect does not do this power justice either.

If there were the charge up mechanics as you said, you could either instacast a very weak micro-singularity, which would function similar to how it is now, or charge up for an entire group lockdown, with the singularity being significantly more powerful.
Maybe this could be incorporated into a "stamina" bar as well?


Now regarding projectiles and trajectory of ragdolled targets, that should be straightforward - make the projectiles invisible and give them near-instant travel time. That way you can still aim up to the left of a trooper, lashing him in that direction, but it would appear to be a projectileless power.

People say 100% cooldown is acceptable. Maybe. Because of the projectiles on weak powers such as pull and throw, I find I still need a 200% cooldown so I can compensate for the seemingly 50% miss rate. They don't do damage much, therefore they should be hitscan, (especially when tech such as chain overload with neural shock gets such a low cooldown.)
Stasis and reave are among my favourite powers not just because they have horrible effects on enemies, but mainly because they hitscan so I can be confident they will prevent my target from attacking me.

Yes, I do remember the animations for ME, and I remember my fury over biotic powers in ME2. I'm happy for all the new biotic combos in ME3, but I also have fond memories of epic ME powers (lift is not pull, nor slam, and should also have been included).

With respect to the charge-cast. Keep the cooldown timers as they are. However if I use a charge up on a power, add that time or a percentage of it to the cooldown.
Going back to my example, using a 3 second charge-up to throw 8 husks could produce a ~1.5s + 3s cooldown before I can throw again.

I think it would make power usage more tactical, since the pause in the animation would probably make the caster leave cover for that time. Therefore, if an adept can get behind an atlas whilst teammates are engaging it, then a huge 5 second warp would be an option.  Blam!

Thanks!

edit4moreblam

Modifié par jezcrow, 16 janvier 2013 - 04:05 .

[HolyAvenger]

Fortack wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Your issue here is, and I've expounded on this on other threads, that DPS rules all. Already caster kits by and large struggle to keep up with weapon kits in terms outputting DPS. If you nerf their damage output even more, even if you give them extra CC or support or whatever, they'll be played even less.

That's bollocks. All Adepts have very good (potential) DPS but they need weapons like everyone else to dish out crazy amounts of damage. However, I don't think that is the problem at all. Personally I find using powers to increase your damage output only quite boring. The single most important thing I liked about biotics (in the previous game) is how they allowed you to play with your enemies in a rather sadistic way

I never said they had bad DPS, I said they generally struggle to keep up with weapon classes and kits. You put a Claymore in the hands of an AA or a HSol, and usually the HSol will out-DPS the AA (given two equally skilled players, of course). I always run my biotics with high DPS weapons like Wraith, Hurricane, Talon etc.

And yes, part of how they make up their DPS is via BEs. I'm all for trading away that for more CC or other utility, if that has a noticeable effect on gameplay. With current engine and enemy number limits, as you noted, they won't have those effects.

I have proposed a number of tweaks to see if we can change this. For example, in SP, I notice the utility of CC far more due to the fact that when I play Shepard, there is no margin for error in dying. Bringing that kind of usefulness to biotics in MP would be interesting and make biotics about far more than simple BE detonation.

Heck I even remember the early days of MP, when we were all limited to 2 gels and 2 ops packs, and the primary utility of AAs was CC of Phantoms and not BEs.

[ABjerre]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fortack wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Your issue here is, and I've expounded on this on other threads, that DPS rules all. Already caster kits by and large struggle to keep up with weapon kits in terms outputting DPS. If you nerf their damage output even more, even if you give them extra CC or support or whatever, they'll be played even less.

That's bollocks. All Adepts have very good (potential) DPS but they need weapons like everyone else to dish out crazy amounts of damage. However, I don't think that is the problem at all. Personally I find using powers to increase your damage output only quite boring. The single most important thing I liked about biotics (in the previous game) is how they allowed you to play with your enemies in a rather sadistic way

I never said they had bad DPS, I said they generally struggle to keep up with weapon classes and kits. You put a Claymore in the hands of an AA or a HSol, and usually the HSol will out-DPS the AA (given two equally skilled players, of course). I always run my biotics with high DPS weapons like Wraith, Hurricane, Talon etc.

And yes, part of how they make up their DPS is via BEs. I'm all for trading away that for more CC or other utility, if that has a noticeable effect on gameplay. With current engine and enemy number limits, as you noted, they won't have those effects.

I have proposed a number of tweaks to see if we can change this. For example, in SP, I notice the utility of CC far more due to the fact that when I play Shepard, there is no margin for error in dying. Bringing that kind of usefulness to biotics in MP would be interesting and make biotics about far more than simple BE detonation.

Heck I even remember the early days of MP, when we were all limited to 2 gels and 2 ops packs, and the primary utility of AAs was CC of Phantoms and not BEs.

The problem with Biotics are, at least in my oppinion, not that they do lesser damage. In fact, considering their independance on ammo crate humping and spending of consumables, their damage is just fine. The problem is that they are so easily disrupted by someone not knowing what they are doing. Furthermore the nature of many of the most key abilities are debuffing and crowd controlling which at this point in game are largely undesireable. Pair this with their somewhat more difficult usage and you have something that is inferior to the alternative: Guns 'n Grenades.

A few points to underline my arguement:

Debuff armor on boss: See if i care when i can trigger a tech or fire explosion with my proximity mine + increase damage taken by 20% + 20% because it is also scanned.
Freeze a phantom in place: (One of the units w. barriers, which tech has a problem with) See if i care when i can land 3 head shots on it after provoking their bouble.
Singularity: Lolarmor!
Ok, then Pull: Lolshields! See if my Energy Drain, Overload, Arc Grenade or any other tech ability followed by a Black Widow cares for that.
Warping for explosion: Loldodge! Dodge an inferno grenade for comparison, biatch.
Effective against barriers: The units that have barriers are also very proficient at dodging powers (possessed collector mooks, phantoms) and/or putting up mitigation shields (phantoms and banshees). Dodge my headshot!

And thats before the noob on your team gets it going:

Priming for explosions: Cool, i'll overload them! /facepalm
... or incinerate them.
... or freeze them.
... or throw (arc, inferno or homing) grenades at them.
... or just snipe them.
... and using incendiary, disruptor (quite fitting name when playing with biotics) or cryo ammo.
... all of which btw has great synergy.

In conclusion, the reward for playing biotic classes is simply not worth the hassle in a random game. Among experienced players, biotics can achive great results when played on a team suited for it, but in a random game, the scenario is quite different. In comparison, it is simply too easy, also for relatively new players, to achive the same results - and much more reliably due to power synergy, with tech and weapon based classes.

Modifié par ABjerre, 16 janvier 2013 - 04:33 .

[Sailears]

@jezcrow - Yes, if charging up makes a player exposed for the duration (people would find the smash animation fast!) that could balance out a powerful effect. So you'd have to position yourself strategically to avoid being mowed down when charging up a power.

Regarding hitscan - I apologise, I think I misinterpreted your disappointment with projectiles - my point of view was more on style rather than effectiveness. I think there should be a very short delay between the casting animation and the power effect, or at least the power doesn't take effect until the end of the casting animation.

Reave does this well. In fact in my mind I don't call it reave, I call it warp - it has more in common with ME1 warp than that weird blue ball of stuff you throw out like some sort of artillery. AAs and human sentinels are really monotonous in this respect - what's the significant difference between warp and throw? Just blue artillery fire with resulting explosions.

[jezcrow]

Curunen wrote...

@jezcrow - Yes, if charging up makes a player exposed for the duration (people would find the smash animation fast!) that could balance out a powerful effect. So you'd have to position yourself strategically to avoid being mowed down when charging up a power.

Regarding hitscan - I apologise, I think I misinterpreted your disappointment with projectiles - my point of view was more on style rather than effectiveness. I think there should be a very short delay between the casting animation and the power effect, or at least the power doesn't take effect until the end of the casting animation.

Reave does this well. In fact in my mind I don't call it reave, I call it warp - it has more in common with ME1 warp than that weird blue ball of stuff you throw out like some sort of artillery. AAs and human sentinels are really monotonous in this respect - what's the significant difference between warp and throw? Just blue artillery fire with resulting explosions.

Well I don't disagree; I am frustrated by the wait over projectiles, not least because I need to know whether they are going to hit or whether I need to recast them, which is going to alter my use of cover if I am taking fire.

Warp still exists outright as a damage power, detonating it is a bonus.  However, the basic utility of Throw is gone and it only exists as a detonator.  In ME2, Throw Field was fabulous.  It did next to no damage, but it gave me time to shoot enemies without getting shot/melee'd.  But in ME3 because of dodge, it's basic utility is flawed so it may as well be removed (almost).

[Zero132132]

Curunen wrote...

Zero132132 - It seems you ought to read further, because you are completely misunderstanding this thread. Either that, or I'm not making things clear enough. I can play every single adept apart from the volus and slasher (lack of experience) very well on every difficulty, thank you. Ok my AA might be a bit rusty; I'd be wary of taking that to platinum, but I digress. I know they can all beast through the game on any difficulty.
Ok, disregard stagger for the minute - a useful feature, but hardly unique to biotic powers. Loads of powers, melee, weapons and so on can cause stagger, so that is beside the point.

That isn't really true. Plenty can stagger mooks, but staggering big enemies is generally harder. It can be done with the right evolutions by throw, biotic charge, and lash on Gold, and I think it can be done by Lash on Platinum too by the Phoenix Vanguard after a charge. The stagger threshold for bosses is 1500 N on Gold and 2000 N on Platinum. The threshold for Phantoms is 1000 N on both Gold and Platinum, so even with the radius evolutions, throw and BC can stun them. I think Cluster grenades can also stagger bosses on Platinum, if spec'd right, but people usually dismiss grenades as not being real powers for some reason.

This means that if you get the timing right, you can interrupt a sync kill using one move. Tech and combat classes need to deal a significant amount of damage in a short amount of time for the same effect.

Aside from stagger, what useful side effects? Pull, singularity, lash and lifting shockwave can suspend health - sure that's fun and useful on occasion (such as saving people from being stomped, or ccing a bunch of phantoms). Throw can kill some unshielded mooks, same as shooting them.

You're ignoring the ragdoll effect of throw, shockwave, and lash. You can neutralize multiple targets by removing their ability to attack, dodge, or do any damned thing at all for a few seconds. Much easier to kill phantoms when they're on the ground helpless. WHERE ARE YOUR BADASS DR CARTWHEELS NOW!? HAHAHAHAHA!

Stasis is one of the only pure crowd controlling powers, given the explosion is nothing special, and it works on a wide variety of targets. Sure, viable on gold (first half of a reaper/collector match in the case of pull), but utterly meaningless when it gets to platinum. EDIT: I should say, stasis and lash are fine because of working through shields.

Because of the shieldgate mechanic, there aren't that many weapons that can immediately kill stuff like phantoms, captains, marauders, etc.. You can often one-shot their shields, however, and then you have some follow up move to either eliminate them completely or neutralize them for some follow-up attack. Shielded guys with health behind it exist on all difficulties.

I notice you left Reave and Barrier's DR granting abilities out. You also ignore the damage-over-time aspect which will put off shield regen substantially, and can in some cases allow you to basically ignore an enemy while it dies to some DoT effect (specifically thinking of Reave and dark channel here).

On a side note, personally, I think the shield penetration evo on Lash is counterproductive. It means it does half force through shields, but this includes bosses with armor, so you won't be able to interrupt boss sync kills if their shields are up.

Debuffs? The only meaningful ones are those that increase damage done by weapons or explosions for the most part (or melee if you're running a niche build). Movement speed debuff is unique to dark channel, and hardly used.

With warp ammo, any priming power can actually function effectively as a debuff of sorts. You can do much more damage to health/armor/barriers to primed targets with warp ammo than you can to unprimed targets. There's also the warp+incendiary glitch, but that's a glitch.

Biotics do not suck, where in any of my posts have I said that? They are monotonous. Crowd control effects are secondary to biotic explosion and/or weapon damage.

Any power in this game is going to be secondary to weapon damage, because every class ever uses weapons. Biotic explosions are great for dealing damage across an area as well as staggering stuff, but after several patches, they just aren't that reliable as a means for dealing damage. People ignored other effects of biotics early in the game because biotic explosions were better then, nobody had unlocked good weapons yet, and nobody understood how warp ammo functioned. For some reason, the same thought patterns continue to the day, and because they made combo detonations less easy-mode and people still cling to the idea of a +200% cooldown speed bonus, everyone maintains this notion that biotics and biotic classes are substantially underpowered.

Modifié par Zero132132, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:11 .

[Miniditka77]

OP is not correct.  There are many viable ways to play adepts.

1.  Melee builds:  The Krogan Adept is the most obvious melee character, and often has cooldowns that aren't conducive to getting Biotic Explosions.  You can use Shockwave primarily to stagger enemies to let you get in close enough to melee, and use Warp as a debuffer for taking out bosses.  BE's are a bonus, but not required.  The Human and Batarian Adepts can also be made into melee builds, but that's probably not the optimal way to play.

2.  Weapons-based builds:  The Drell Adept and Justicar are the two best examples.  Yes, the Drell's Reave + Clusters is his most potent weapon, but you can't kill every enemy with Cluster grenades.  The Drell has insane weapon bonuses and speed bonuses, and is one of the better weapons classes on the game.  The Justicar can be almost as effective with weapons, and is one of the most survivable characters on the game.  Pull/Reave explosions are nice for dealing with mooks, but the Justicar can't rely on BE's for taking out big targets.  Her explosions are too weak and require you to get right up in enemies' faces to drop a Warp Bubble, which isn't always a viable option.  The best way to play her is to spam Reave and use a good weapon with Warp Ammo.  She can also be played as a camping sniper with maximum possible DR from the combination of a defensive bubble, Reave, and cover DR.  The Shaman and Slasher can be played very well as weapons classes too (with Warp or Incendiary ammo).

3.  Tech Explosion builds:  The Human Sentinel (while not an Adept) is pretty great for this type of build, but any class with Throw or Shockwave (or maybe Warp) can do this well.  Just use an ammo power with a weapon that is good at applying them, and then spam your detonator power to blow stuff up.  This is a very viable strategy.

4.  Volus:  Maxed biotic orbs let you spam Shield Boost as quick as possible, and you can fire your orbs as a massive debuff to powerful enemies.  Self detonation of explosions is usually not an option.

So that leaves us with three Adept characters whose optimal builds rely primarily on Biotic Explosions for damage:  the Human Adept, the Fury, and the Asari Adept.  Maybe four if you count the Drell (but I don't).  That hardly defines the class.

[Sailears]

Zero132132
The ragdoll effects are not the primary function of shockwave and throw - they are primarily detonators. There is not enough time in combat to meticulously strip every shield in a group (not using an acolyte) and ragdoll them, followed by shooting them. It is inefficient compared to simply shooting them or creating a tech/biotic detonation.

I've spoken about reave, praising it for its DoT effects. Barrier is a good one plus detonating it can radgoll an unprotected target. I don't think I've complained about that anywhere. DR is a fantastic mechanic, but it is an "invisible" mechanic just like weakining/debuffing and weapon damage boosting. I have no complaints about it.

I'm not clinging to 200% cooldown or moaning about interrupting BEs. I also do not say they are underpowered. But they do not properly showcase what the concept of being able to manipulate mass can actually do - hence the discussion for new models in the next game. Please have a look through some other people's posts to see some of the suggestions and ideas that could enhance biotic combat for ME4.


Miniditka77
Melee builds as you said are not optimal compared to detonation or weapon damage builds. Krogan is unique because of barrier damage reduction, rage and good melee abilities, which I do spend half the time doing.

Weapon based builds? Come on, all classes can do that, hardly unique to biotics and has nothing really to do with the scope of biotic powers.

As for ammo powers - again, any class can do that. A tech explosion build can hardly be called a build on an adept when all you're doing is using tech ammo and relying on the use of biotic powers as pure detonators.
Warp ammo and primed targets, I agree that is powerful, but that's just boosting weapon damage in another form, practically identical to exposing/weakening targets. Not a unique playstyle.

The volus is more of a sentinel, given shield boost is a tech power. Orbs, apart from the cooldown bonus, again a debuff, practically identical to warp.

Although I stated adepts in the OP I can see now this thread is not directed solely towards all characters in that class, but is more of a general overview on the usage of pure biotic powers (without charge).

Modifié par Curunen, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:41 .

[doozerdude]

Curunen wrote...


BEs are overused

No. Such. Thing...

[Sailears]

doozerdude wrote...

Curunen wrote...


BEs are overused

No. Such. Thing...

You'll get tired of it eventually (or not).

I had a thought with the effects of mass lowering powers and stasis - what if the effect was variable based on the power rank, and the enemy/object you are applying the effect on?
At the moment it is very black and white - either you stasis a target or you don't, you lift a target or you don't.
What if there was an effect gradient?

As power rank increases, you can disable more mass for a longer duration?
What if each enemy target and environment object had a "MASS value" - this would determine how effective a biotic power would be against it, whether it would work or not and for how long, or how much force could be generated?

Modifié par Curunen, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:39 .

[RoundedPlanet88]

Curunen wrote...

doozerdude wrote...

Curunen wrote...


BEs are overused

No. Such. Thing...

You'll get tired of it eventually (or not).

I had a thought with the effects of mass lowering powers and stasis - what if the effect was variable based on the power rank, and the enemy/object you are applying the effect on?
At the moment it is very black and white - either you stasis a target or you don't, you lift a target or you don't.
What if there was an effect gradient?

As power rank increases, you can disable more mass for a longer duration?
What if each enemy target and environment object had a "MASS value" - this would determine how effective a biotic power would be against it, whether it would work or not and for how long, or how much force could be generated?

Not horrible ideas, but do you REALLY want the EA servers to ahve to process more data? we get DC for no reason enough quite frankly

[Sailears]

^Erm, that was directed at ME4 given it is a completely new mechanic suggestion.
I'm sure the entire game, servers, origin and so on will be different by then.

Modifié par Curunen, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:43 .

[Zero132132]

Curunen wrote...

Zero132132
The ragdoll effects are not the primary function of shockwave and throw - they are primarily detonators. There is not enough time in combat to meticulously strip every shield in a group (not using an acolyte) and ragdoll them, followed by shooting them. It is inefficient compared to simply shooting them or creating a tech/biotic detonation.

When you take down a Phantom's shields, she tries to go invisible and hide while they regen. If you take out her shields with one shot and use throw, she'll either put up her bubble and sit still, giving you great time to line up a headshot, or she'll be ragdolled, possibly thrown off the map, and you'll have great time to line up a headshot. Shoot+throw+shoot takes way less time than warp+throw or DC+throw or whatever.

It's not meticulous shield stripping. As I said, with many weapons, you hit the gate and most of the damage doesn't go through. You're stopping the shooting for maybe half a second at most (animation time on both warp and throw is ridiculously low) to make the target a much easier kill. You might also throw them off of the map entirely.

I'm not clinging to 200% cooldown or moaning about interrupting BEs. I also do not say they are underpowered. But they do not properly showcase what the concept of being able to manipulate mass can actually do - hence the discussion for new models in the next game. Please have a look through some other people's posts to see some of the suggestions and ideas that could enhance biotic combat for ME4.

I guess I didn't get that. Because of the weekly balance updates, people usually think that Bioware can easily modify big aspects of the game very easily, so generally, when people are suggesting changes, they're suggesting them for this game rather than the next.

I still think you're wrong about the role of biotics in this game. It takes at least 5 seconds to pull off a biotic explosion most of the time, and so many damned things can go wrong with it that it's rarely the best way to go. I really think you're ignoring the potential of many powers (you basically said so above when you stated that shockwave and throw are primarily detonators).

[Sailears]

Yes you have a fair point, and I accept I am being overly critical on powers because of the biotic explosion aspect.

For the record I do use all these powers - throw, shockwave, pull, singularity, for crowd control functions. Before the acolyte came along I used to use disruptor ammo on a carnifex/paladin (so as not to damage much past the shield gate), go for headshots to strip shields and make use of pull to disable targets. But to have such disparity between effects on armour/defences and effects on health does not sit right with me.
Against defences they are purely detonators (ignoring stagger). Against health they have completely different effects.

Modifié par Curunen, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:50 .

[LemurFromTheId]

Curunen wrote...

The success of every adept kit largely revolves around the priming and detonation of biotic explosions.

I have to disagree a bit here. While it's quite true for many adepts, notably Fury, Drell and Slasher, it's only true for every adept kit if you've explicitly chosen that style of play.

Case in point: biotic explosions are purely supplementary to my Asari Adept (a kit that was once know as the Queen of BEs). I'll explain, but I'll quote you a bit more first:

Curunen wrote...

It doesn't matter what the powers are - be it warp and throw, reave and clusters, singularity and lash, AF and throw, and so on... any fancy crowd controlling effects (not including the BE knockdown and stagger) are totally secondary to the BE damage.

The thing is: it does matter what the powers are. AA has three powers: stasis, warp and throw. I use all three quite equally and I use them all for a very specific purpose.

One of the biggest reasons why AA is probably my all-time favourite kit in the game is the fact that in most situations you have 2-3 powers that offer you several different ways to handle a situation. Let's take a very simple situation: running around the map, I come across a Collector Captain. These are some of the things I can do:

- Stasis, headshot
- Stasis, detonate
- Warp, finish with a weapon
- Warp, detonate
- Throw to stagger, headshot
- Shoot, finish with throw

At first glance these methods may seem somewhat similar or redundant, but the truth is they all have their pros and cons. They all offer a varying level of safety, they leave me with a different cooldown, they work differently at different distances. The best part is that I use all these methods, all the time. With a power set like this you need to be constantly making tactical decisions. Of course, this was just against a single opponent. When you face three of those guys at the same time, things get much more complicated and even more interesting. (This is why I love AA and why I find kits like Fury and Drell Adept somewhat boring. How many ways can you combine reave and cluster nades?)

I use biotic explosions a lot, especially against Reapers (brutes, ravagers) and against all the toughest bosses. But you know what? They're still not my primary way to deal damage - warp's ability to debuff and prime are much more important. The majority of my kills are done without BEs - those mostly offer supplemental damaga against the tough, armored targets.

To summarize: I use all three powers, I use them for very specific purposes and my success does not revolve around priming and detonating BEs. And I am very successful with this kit.

There are similar ways to play most other adept kits without relying greatly on BEs - or at all.

[RoundedPlanet88]

Curunen wrote...

^Erm, that was directed at ME4 given it is a completely new mechanic suggestion.
I'm sure the entire game, servers, origin and so on will be different by then.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Good joke
oh wait, your serious?
Please, EA will continue being EA.