15 réponses à ce sujet

[Gamer Ftw]

 How does anyone know that Cailan wasn't the one who couldn't have kids and not her?

[dainbramage]

As an aside, whose brilliant idea was it to recruit Alistair in the first place?

"Hey guys here's the heir if Cailan dies - let's make him sterile and make sure the Theirin bloodline ends"

[Gamer Ftw]

Can a bastard even inherit the throne outside of a fantasy setting?
Maybe it's different in Thedas but I thought bastard couldn't be kings....

[Wulfram]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Can a bastard even inherit the throne outside of a fantasy setting?
Maybe it's different in Thedas but I thought bastard couldn't be kings....

William the Conqueror was William the Bastard.  Manfred, the bastard son of Frederick II of the Holy Roman Empire was the King of Sicily - started out as regent, then had himself crowned on a false rumour of the legitimate heirs death.  The Tudor family owed it's claim to the throne to their descent from someone who was born a bastard, though subsequently legitimised.

Of course, none of them succeeded through conventional means. 

A wife succeeding their husband to the throne would be pretty rare too, though it did happen.

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 janvier 2013 - 01:25 .

[Addai]

dainbramage wrote...

As an aside, whose brilliant idea was it to recruit Alistair in the first place?

"Hey guys here's the heir if Cailan dies - let's make him sterile and make sure the Theirin bloodline ends"

Assuming Alistair is the baby in The Calling, it could have been Maric's.  Maric was hopeful that Alistair could be brought up without the burdens that he carried, and Fiona equally concerned that the baby not have the stigma of being elf-blooded and son of a Grey Warden.  Their plan A was to protect him from these things by raising him outside the court and telling him he was son of a human woman who died.

I think plan B, making him a Warden, could have been something Maric and Duncan also discussed.  Wardens normally can't inherit.  Maric believed (because of something Flemeth told him and/or showed him and/or... did to him) that a Blight was coming to Ferelden.  Maric and Duncan may have agreed that if Alistair was in trouble with kingship problems, or if the Blight came, that Duncan should consider recruiting him if he was suitable Warden material.  Duncan saw that Alistair was desperately unhappy as a templar and the Chantry was trying hard to keep him, possibly as political coin, and maybe by then he even had inkling that a Blight was coming, so any thought of kingship was secondary.  This IS Duncan we're talking about.

Theirin blood is really only important to traditionalists, though now we are finding out from the comics that there actually could be something to the Calenhad legend.

[Ferretinabun]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Can a bastard even inherit the throne outside of a fantasy setting?
Maybe it's different in Thedas but I thought bastard couldn't be kings....

Correct. Conventionally, at least, a bastard does not inherit.

There have been moments in history of royal crisis such as the one Ferelden faces after Cailan's death, where there are no obvious legitimate candidates to the throne, and possible candidates seek to press their suitability, however tenuous, including illegitimate descent. But usually it's basically might that makes right in such cases. Whoever has the biggest army makes the rules. When you study history, particularly royal history, it really is amazing how much of it is people making up their own rules to suit their needs at the time.

I've never heard of a Queen consort simply becoming a Queen regnant on the death of her husband though.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Can a bastard even inherit the throne outside of a fantasy setting?
Maybe it's different in Thedas but I thought bastard couldn't be kings....

I've never heard of a Queen consort simply becoming a Queen regnant on the death of her husband though.

A queen inheriting after the King's death requires the Crown-Matrimonial, I think. But if she has that, they're both regnant. Without it, she could still take the crown, but only by that thing you mentioned where you make up a new rule because it's convenient.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Addai67 wrote...

dainbramage wrote...

As an aside, whose brilliant idea was it to recruit Alistair in the first place?

"Hey guys here's the heir if Cailan dies - let's make him sterile and make sure the Theirin bloodline ends"

Assuming Alistair is the baby in The Calling, it could have been Maric's.  Maric was hopeful that Alistair could be brought up without the burdens that he carried, and Fiona equally concerned that the baby not have the stigma of being elf-blooded and son of a Grey Warden.  Their plan A was to protect him from these things by raising him outside the court and telling him he was son of a human woman who died.

I think plan B, making him a Warden, could have been something Maric and Duncan also discussed.  Wardens normally can't inherit.  Maric believed (because of something Flemeth told him and/or showed him and/or... did to him) that a Blight was coming to Ferelden.  Maric and Duncan may have agreed that if Alistair was in trouble with kingship problems, or if the Blight came, that Duncan should consider recruiting him if he was suitable Warden material.  Duncan saw that Alistair was desperately unhappy as a templar and the Chantry was trying hard to keep him, possibly as political coin, and maybe by then he even had inkling that a Blight was coming, so any thought of kingship was secondary.  This IS Duncan we're talking about.

Theirin blood is really only important to traditionalists, though now we are finding out from the comics that there actually could be something to the Calenhad legend.

One theory I heard online was that Maric and Eamon agreed to send him to the Chantry because they didn't realize he would be forced to take lyrium, and knew only that he would be educated as a knight without having to set up any arrangements that would require too much effort to keep secret. Eamon and Maric's plan, as I understand it, was that he could be a spare heir who could be called if needed, but could get by without needing to be needed. The Chantry's plan, as I understand it, is that Eamon and Maric's plan goes through with the only hitch being that Alistair requires a substance only the Chantry can provide him.

This makes less sense in the context of DA2, though, since that establishes the lyrium thing as the sort of open secret any royal really ought to know. Also, this theory is A: from a fanfic, and B: a suggestion raised by a character in that fanfic who is just guessing in the context of this fanfic. Edit: On the other hand, Faerunner seems to have come to the same conclusion, plus or minus the part where the Revered Mother doses him with lyrium in order to take over Ferelden for a couple decades.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 18 janvier 2013 - 12:02 .

[TEWR]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

 How does anyone know that Cailan wasn't the one who couldn't have kids and not her?

You'll hear from Anora how Cailan had many mistresses on the side. That you don't hear anything about him having any children leads me to believe he was shooting blanks.

Faerunner wrote...

though the developers have said that neither Alistair nor Anora ever end up having an heir no matter what you do..

I've heard this claim numerous times, but I've never actually seen the quote in question. Do you happen to know where it was stated, and also for what reasons?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:02 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

 How does anyone know that Cailan wasn't the one who couldn't have kids and not her?

You'll hear from Anora how Cailan had many mistresses on the side. That you don't hear anything about him having any children leads me to believe he was shooting blanks.

Faerunner wrote...

though the developers have said that neither Alistair nor Anora ever end up having an heir no matter what you do..

I've heard this claim numerous times, but I've never actually seen the quote in question. Do you happen to know where it was stated, and also for what reasons?

Iirc, it was in response to the "which one was infertile" question. I believe Gaider's response was "Maybe it was Anora. Maybe it was Cailan. Maybe it was both. Maybe they were just unlucky. Either way, no matter what decision you made, there is not going to be an heir for Ferelden." This leads me to suspect that there will be another Ferelden succession crisis, which seems like something that would probably require PC intervention.

I don't remember where Gaider posted this quote, though.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:33 .

[sylvanaerie]

I remember seeing it also but don't feel like digging through page after page after page of old threads. If you can find it, more power to you.

We have only Anora's word that Cailan had mistresses, and she may be trying to garner sympathy, though it is possible she's being honest. Whether she was infertile or he was shooting blanks is kind of irrelevant since neither she nor Alistair will be having any heirs. Looking forward to future installments and seeing what ramifications that will have on the political future of Ferelden.

I believe I read somewhere that Redcliffe was growing in prominence which could mean a power struggle with one of Teagan or Eamon's heirs trying for the throne a few decades down the line.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 18 janvier 2013 - 03:59 .

[TEWR]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Looking forward to future installments and seeing what ramifications that will have on the political future of Ferelden.

Especially if Alistair had a child with Morrigan through the DR. Then there's a Theirin roaming around still, even though he'd be a bastard.

Assuming, of course, Morrigan and the OGB appear in DA3. And if they do, that Ferelden faces political problems.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:42 .

[MisterJB]

That should be a non issue. The OGB will, no doubt, be a mage and they can't inherit titles.

Anyway, I hope Alistair and Anora have a baby but that's just the shipper in me talking.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...

That should be a non issue. The OGB will, no doubt, be a mage and they can't inherit titles.

They can if they have the support of enough people, enough non-supporters are too scared to act, and if the Chantry's templars have all or mostly all deserted.

Anyway, I hope Alistair and Anora have a baby but that's just the shipper in me talking.

You may wish to begin preparing yourself for disappointment.