265 réponses à ce sujet

[RiptideX1090]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Rip, that started off as an incredibly interesting contribution.  I found myself wanting to talk with you about the nature of life and death, and crucially how the antagonist – an alien AI – might perceive this philosophical issue, right up until this bit:

RiptideX1090 wrote...

It's idiot logic.

Which made me think that there really is no point in discussing anything with you at all, since you appear to have convinced yourself that anybody who draws a different conclusion from you about when a person can truly be considered "dead" is not just wrong but is an idiot.

Hey, if you have an actual argument that can reasonably explain it to me without using circular reasoning as I pointed out above, I'm all ears. Because I don't see how it can possibly make sense. If I have Susan and Bob, and I hook them up to a machine that changes Susan's form and brain to completely match Bob's, it's not Susan anymore. She looks like Bob, she thinks like Bob, Susan, for all intents and purposes, is completely dead. There's not difference between rewriting her and shooting her in the head. Legion and a great number of your crewmates even support this train of thought during A House Divided, if you've watched the video that shows all their input on the topic.

The Reapers don't preserves civilizations, they preserve their memories and genetic make up, but those civilizations are dead. The Innusannon don't think like the Innusannon anymore, they think like a Reaper, they have the body of a Reaper, they ARE a Reaper. I mean, how can someone argue differently? The Reapers destroy free thought just by being near someone, it doesn't follow that the people they make into their own bodies are going to be allowed to maintain their own thoughts. Otherwise, the Reapers would be fighting one another, without a doubt.

[CaptainZaysh]

Meltemph wrote...
We are not talking about an educated guess, we are literally talking about something that has never happened

You keep saying this like it's some sort of brilliant observation.  Humanity has never gone extinct before.  Does that mean we should take no measures to prevent situations that could lead to our extinction?

Meltemph wrote...
and no proof of it being able to happen.

In universe it is proven that self-aware synthetics frequently make war against their creators.

The fact that organics have previously been able to utterly wipe out their synthetic foes proves that the victor has the power to exterminate the loser.

Ergo, we have significant reason to believe that a victorious synthetic side would have the power to exterminate a defeated organic side.

The difference is that, while organics will always create synthetics, we do not know that the hypothetical synthetics will see any reason to allow a resurgence of organic life after their victory.

[tanisha__unknown]

Steelcan wrote...

Except for the part where he tells us in very plain language. The Reapers are here to kill you so you don't make synthetics that kill you.

It isn't confusing or anything, it's just plain flat out stupid.

[RiptideX1090]

TangentialShark wrote...

If the Reapers were to never exist then organics would build synthetics and eventually the synthetics would betray their creators.  The synthetics would win and the final outcome would eventually be a galaxy with NO organic life whatsoever because synthetics have taken over.  The Reapers are able to disrupt this cycle by destroying organics BEFORE synthetics of our own creation can destroy us and prevent any more organic life in the future.  Reapers destroy us NOW so more organics can live in the FUTURE.  The Reapers have the existance of Organic life as their goal but apparently you cannot see this.

The part you're leaving out is where AI is not confined to patterns of repetition as the Catalyst believes. AI minds develop similarly to organic minds, in that their development is affected by the ones who 'raise' them, so to speak. The Catalyst, and thus the Reapers, then, are a product of their progenitors, the Leviathans. They are incapable of understanding Compromise, which is what we achieved on Rannoch and with EDI, because the Leviathans have no concept of compromise. They don't compromise, they dominate, they even state this clearly, saying that it was impossible for them to concieve of a galaxy that did not bend to their will, until they encountered synthetics, which they then percieved as a threat to their thralls.

So it's a self fulfilling prophecy. The Catalyst can't understand there is to be a middle ground because as a creation of the Leviathans, it thinks in absolutes, as they do. It instead 'imposes consensus' between organics and synthetics by turning them into Reapers. And because this happens this is forever a divide between Organics and Synthetics since no other races are allowed to reach the point where they are able to work out their problems, as Shepard and those in this cycle did, namely Legion, Tali, and EDI.

Furthermore, I see no indication that the idea that Synthetics will always win will always hold true. Javik indicates that during his cycle, his people were actually turning the tide against the Metacon, until the Reapers interfered.

[Meltemph]

You keep saying this like it's some sort of brilliant observation.

No, I keep saying it because of the same reason you get aggravated at people for not understanding the difference between "we kill you so you dont get killed by synthetics" vs the "We kill you so your synthetics dont kill us all".

Does that mean we should take no measures to prevent situations that could lead to our extinction?

If they are made up "situations" with no reasonable expectation of happening, no.

In universe it is proven that self-aware synthetics frequently make war against their creators.

The fact that organics have previously been able to utterly wipe out their synthetic foes proves that the victor has the power to exterminate the loser.

Ergo, we have significant reason to believe that a victorious synthetic side would have the power to exterminate a defeated organic side.

The difference is that, while organics will always create synthetics, we do not know that the hypothetical synthetics will see any reason to allow a resurgence of organic life after their victory.

The ground work that was placed through-out all 3 games was not a fear of a tech singularity, the ground work was that of a specific sociological reasoning(something much more deep and tangible then a tech singularity). The Leviathan are the representation of the "synthetic menace", I'm sure you understand the implications of that.

Tech merging with organic to create a powerful being is far more likely and something that is a foreseeable course in the future, is much more believable then something born out of the 50's.

Modifié par Meltemph, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:32 .

[Leem_0001]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Its too much of a leap to say they exist in limbo, we have no way of knowing that at all. To me it is heavily implied that a persons conciousness and being, for lack of a better term, is not carried over. Reapers simply access the genetic code for information.

Again, we will just have to have different viewpoints in this. Nothing wrong with that.

What do you think of the "It was lonely.  It called to us" cut text?

Nicely written but at the end of the day it is cut text, it doesn't appear in the finished game. Also we have no idea in what context it was supposed to be used, so it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other as to how 'alive' those that were harvested are.

[111987]

Leem_0001 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Its too much of a leap to say they exist in limbo, we have no way of knowing that at all. To me it is heavily implied that a persons conciousness and being, for lack of a better term, is not carried over. Reapers simply access the genetic code for information.

Again, we will just have to have different viewpoints in this. Nothing wrong with that.

What do you think of the "It was lonely.  It called to us" cut text?

Nicely written but at the end of the day it is cut text, it doesn't appear in the finished game. Also we have no idea in what context it was supposed to be used, so it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other as to how 'alive' those that were harvested are.

Legion says, in-game, that a Reaper's mind is made up of billions of uploaded organic minds.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Leem_0001]

111987 wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Its too much of a leap to say they exist in limbo, we have no way of knowing that at all. To me it is heavily implied that a persons conciousness and being, for lack of a better term, is not carried over. Reapers simply access the genetic code for information.

Again, we will just have to have different viewpoints in this. Nothing wrong with that.

What do you think of the "It was lonely.  It called to us" cut text?

Nicely written but at the end of the day it is cut text, it doesn't appear in the finished game. Also we have no idea in what context it was supposed to be used, so it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other as to how 'alive' those that were harvested are.

Legion says, in-game, that a Reaper's mind is made up of billions of uploaded organic minds.

www.youtube.com/watch

'One hypothisis among many.'

And he doesn't go into what is meant by 'mind', exactly. If the physical body is gone are you trying to tell us, to seriously suggest, that the conciousness is still present within the Reaper? Honestly???

Please, just think about it - without a body how is this possible? How can a conciousness exist without a body and brain? Are you talking about a soul? Is that what we are really getting at here, that a persons soul is uploaded to the Reapers and lives on, retaining all the persons memories and personality traits? So the Reapers are in fact...Soul Reapers???

Waffle.

Or

Modifié par Leem_0001, 17 janvier 2013 - 12:03 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Meltemph wrote...
The ground work that was placed through-out all 3 games was not a fear of a tech singularity, the ground work was that of a specific sociological reasoning(something much more deep and tangible then a tech singularity). The Leviathan are the representation of the "synthetic menace", I'm sure you understand the implications of that.
 

Actually I'd like you to expand on that; I haven't thought very deeply about the Leviathan race really.

[CaptainZaysh]

Leem_0001 wrote...

Please, just think about it - without a body how is this possible? How can a conciousness exist without a body and brain?

Maybe there really is a "realm of existence we cannot comprehend".  It requires suspension of disbelief but so do the transporters in Star Trek (which reduce your body and brain into atoms without killing you).

[111987]

Leem_0001 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Its too much of a leap to say they exist in limbo, we have no way of knowing that at all. To me it is heavily implied that a persons conciousness and being, for lack of a better term, is not carried over. Reapers simply access the genetic code for information.

Again, we will just have to have different viewpoints in this. Nothing wrong with that.

What do you think of the "It was lonely.  It called to us" cut text?

Nicely written but at the end of the day it is cut text, it doesn't appear in the finished game. Also we have no idea in what context it was supposed to be used, so it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other as to how 'alive' those that were harvested are.

Legion says, in-game, that a Reaper's mind is made up of billions of uploaded organic minds.

www.youtube.com/watch

'One hypothisis among many.'

And he doesn't go into what is meant by 'mind', exactly. If the physical body is gone are you trying to tell us, to seriously suggest, that the conciousness is still present within the Reaper? Honestly???

Please, just think about it - without a body how is this possible? How can a conciousness exist without a body and brain? Are you talking about a soul? Is that what we are really getting at here, that a persons soul is uploaded to the Reapers and lives on, retaining all the persons memories and personality traits? So the Reapers are in fact...Soul Reapers???

Waffle.

Or

Legion states it as a fact. this is what happens when you deliberatley misquote something to fit your argument. "it WAS one hypothesis among many". Note the past tense.

Look at the virtual aliens. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Virtual_Alien

It may not make sense to us, but that kind of tech has been introduced in the MEverse. So deal with it.

[Wayning_Star]

111987 wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Its too much of a leap to say they exist in limbo, we have no way of knowing that at all. To me it is heavily implied that a persons conciousness and being, for lack of a better term, is not carried over. Reapers simply access the genetic code for information.

Again, we will just have to have different viewpoints in this. Nothing wrong with that.

What do you think of the "It was lonely.  It called to us" cut text?

Nicely written but at the end of the day it is cut text, it doesn't appear in the finished game. Also we have no idea in what context it was supposed to be used, so it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other as to how 'alive' those that were harvested are.

Legion says, in-game, that a Reaper's mind is made up of billions of uploaded organic minds.

www.youtube.com/watch

'One hypothisis among many.'

And he doesn't go into what is meant by 'mind', exactly. If the physical body is gone are you trying to tell us, to seriously suggest, that the conciousness is still present within the Reaper? Honestly???

Please, just think about it - without a body how is this possible? How can a conciousness exist without a body and brain? Are you talking about a soul? Is that what we are really getting at here, that a persons soul is uploaded to the Reapers and lives on, retaining all the persons memories and personality traits? So the Reapers are in fact...Soul Reapers???

Waffle.

Or

Legion states it as a fact. this is what happens when you deliberatley misquote something to fit your argument. "it WAS one hypothesis among many". Note the past tense.

Look at the virtual aliens. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Virtual_Alien

It may not make sense to us, but that kind of tech has been introduced in the MEverse. So deal with it.

it may not make sense now but now is right here: http://www.extremete...s-stored-in-dna

count backwards from 100000000000000000000000 or so... http://www.prlog.org...rue-almost.html 

[RogueBot]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

The Catalyst's logic makes perfect sense.

Thanks, Broski Rasputin. You always make the most insightful posts. You're a credit to the USSR.

[MassEffect23]

Look at the dialogue from the leviathans they have been around for millinia and when they decided to create the catalyst they had seen races build machines such as geth and EDI that helped their creators but ultimately wanted more than being subservient. Also with any race as powerful as the leviathans they created the very thing they had been trying to get their thrall races to stop creating. The logic maybe flawed but that is because one cannot be completely agree with every decision. Another thing is that the Catalyst has been doing its mandate for millinia beyond counting so who's to say that there is no compromise to the choice to wipe synthetics or to wipe organics from creating synthetics that destroy organics. Maybe it is flawed but nothing in all of this universe is perfect least not Mass Effect

[Meltemph]

 

Actually I'd like you to expand on that; I haven't thought very deeply about the Leviathan race really.

We know that the Reapers are, essetnailly, the physical representation of the Leviathan, in the DLC we learned the cultural and sociological mentality behind the Leviathan which was: 

1. To subjugate all forms of organics to their will, through domination and mind control.

2.  Leviathan dictated the course of these organics they were in charge of.

3.  Their desire was to be lords over all their domain(the galaxy).

4.  Their thralls all had a propencity to create synthetics that would in the end turn on them.

5.  We learn in the ME series that synthetics dont turn on them because AI's are evil, but when they are used as slaves(essntially the difference between EDI and the Geth).

6. Leviathan ruled over their thralls with an iron fist, and used them as nothing more then tools(much like how the Quarians used the Geth).

7.  Slavery leads to the inevitable end of the slave rebelling against their masters(as being proven in the ME universe by number 5)

8.  Leviathan created the catalyst to figure out how to prevent their tools(Organic thralls), tools(synthetics) from destroying them.

9.  The catalyst figures out that the only way to prevent the tools(synthetics) from destroying the tools(organic thralls to the Leviathan), was to reap the tools(Organics) that were creating the tools(synthetics) that wiped them out.

10.  The catalyst realized that the only way to eliminate the tools(synthetics) from wiping out the Leviathans tools(organics) on a permanent basis, was to kill the organic(Levithan) event that was causing the tools(organics) from creating tools(synthetics) that would wipe them out.

11.  The implications of 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10 indicate that the constant that created the cyclical trap of slaves destroying slaves, was to take out the slaver.  The sociological constant that was causing the inevitable conflict was the embodyment of the physical manifestation of the reapers, the Leviathen.

12.  The Leviathan are the "manifestation of the synthetic conflict"; the Leviathan's sociological impact on the galaxy, hence the only conclusion the catalyst came to, based on who created him was: Slave owners must be destroyed, so their tools dont destroy all slave owners.

Modifié par Meltemph, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:33 .

[Sajuro]

I don't know if this is brought up, but Reapers operate on a very different plane of thought than Organics, not higher but one that does not intersect.
They Harvest us before we can destroy ourselves because they view preserving us as Reapers with our knowledge preserves the species. Think of it like your printer scanning in a document but destroying the original in the process; you say the document is preserved because look, it's on your computer how nifty is that/ the documents who can suddenly talk and are sentient say that you are killing them because you are destroying their original form, and they like being papery.
And the Catalyst's statement about fire was kind of stupid and would have been better as
Catalyst: "When your kind rounded up cattle you raised and domesticated to slaughter them for food, were you at war with cows?"
Funny Version: Sovereign said we could not comprehend it because he knew how stupid it was and was ashamed.

[78stonewobble]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Also... for added stupidity:

"... because synthetics will rise against their creators and destroy all organics..."

Note the "all" in there.

Do you people have any idea of what it would take to destroy all organic life in the mass effect 3 galaxy?

You would have to sterilize every single planet, moon, asteroid, comet, rock, dustflake and so on.

An insane idea. It really is the equivalent of mankind starting a massive war economy to the point where we can't feed 3 billion people, just to make nuclear weapons so we can carpet bomb africa before the chimpanzees becomes a threat.

But thats just to point out the stupidity in idea itself.

Actually, once you achieved space superiority it would be trivially easy using armed Von Neumann probes.

It has been theorized that a self-replicating starship utilizing relatively conventional theoretical methods of interstellar travel (i.e., no exotic faster-than-light propulsion such as "warp drive", and speeds limited to an "average cruising speed" of 0.1c.) could spread throughout a galaxy the size of the Milky Way in as little as half a million years.

Yeah... The premise of that was to... well for a lack of better words... to survey a galaxy. Not scrub the surface area of ever grain of sand on any planet or dustflake in space.

Can you give me a rational explanation for an AI wanting to waste, what amounts to trillions upon trillions of AI lives or years of lives of energy and materials on such a project? 

Does actually make the op sorta correct. The only reason anyone, person or ai, would do something like that if they were bat**** crazy.

Eg. If you have some ants in your kitchen that are an annoyance. Then you kill the ants in the kitchen. You dont spend days systematically burning and chemically cleansing your yard and x amount of square area around your house.

Again. Unless you're crazy.

It's such a gigantic waste of ressources that it is "more" damaging to the development of an AI than supposed attacks by organics would ever be.

I expect it to be Artificial Intelligence... Not Artificial Stupidity.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:03 .

[Leem_0001]

111987 wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Its too much of a leap to say they exist in limbo, we have no way of knowing that at all. To me it is heavily implied that a persons conciousness and being, for lack of a better term, is not carried over. Reapers simply access the genetic code for information.

Again, we will just have to have different viewpoints in this. Nothing wrong with that.

What do you think of the "It was lonely.  It called to us" cut text?

Nicely written but at the end of the day it is cut text, it doesn't appear in the finished game. Also we have no idea in what context it was supposed to be used, so it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other as to how 'alive' those that were harvested are.

Legion says, in-game, that a Reaper's mind is made up of billions of uploaded organic minds.

www.youtube.com/watch

'One hypothisis among many.'

And he doesn't go into what is meant by 'mind', exactly. If the physical body is gone are you trying to tell us, to seriously suggest, that the conciousness is still present within the Reaper? Honestly???

Please, just think about it - without a body how is this possible? How can a conciousness exist without a body and brain? Are you talking about a soul? Is that what we are really getting at here, that a persons soul is uploaded to the Reapers and lives on, retaining all the persons memories and personality traits? So the Reapers are in fact...Soul Reapers???

Waffle.

Or

Legion states it as a fact. this is what happens when you deliberatley misquote something to fit your argument. "it WAS one hypothesis among many". Note the past tense.

Look at the virtual aliens. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Virtual_Alien

It may not make sense to us, but that kind of tech has been introduced in the MEverse. So deal with it.

So Legion is an expert on what happens after humans are melted into go? Um...no.

And I didn't see anyhting in game about the Virtual Aliens - so was that on the Cerberus Daily News of something? If so I missed it. Even so, I'll take on board the comments about the VA's, but I'll raise you what the Catalyst says when discussing the Control ending:


“You will die – you will control us but you will lose everything you have...your connection to your kind will be lost.”
Bioware went pretty far out of their way to get across the point that Shepard is dead (Catalyst specifically states this). Even though his memories and personality is carried over, he is dead. Same thing with the people who are harvested and, I'd wager, the VA's that you mention. Something lives on, but it is not the being that was before. That is dead, even though its memories and knowladge are passed on. But that being is dead. Again, refer what the Catalyst says. He uses the word 'die'. There is no room for movement here. It is dead. Get that?

That is in game too. Undisputable. And it proves that all the people that are harvested die. So they have been killed. Whatever lives on is something different.

So all this talk of harvesting being different to killing is therefore null and void.

Deal with it.

[CaptainZaysh]

Meltemph wrote...

We know that the Reapers are, essetnailly, the physical representation of the Leviathan, in the DLC we learned the cultural and sociological mentality behind the Leviathan which was...

That's really interesting (and thanks for elaborating), but isn't it essentially the same plot?  Catalyst takes out organics because they will create synthetics?

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:00 .

[wright1978]

Nope, using the words Catalyst and logic in the same sentence is an oxymoron as the star brat is devoid of it.

[Meltemph]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

We know that the Reapers are, essetnailly, the physical representation of the Leviathan, in the DLC we learned the cultural and sociological mentality behind the Leviathan which was...

That's really interesting (and thanks for elaborating), but isn't it essentially the same plot?  Catalyst takes out organics because they will create synthetics?

It is only the same in terms of the end result, but the implications give the endings and the catalyst a completely different light.  And in so doing, I would think, shapes the choices of ones self the moment those realizations and choices you would make, after that point, are actually realized.  

It is, I think, very important when having a discussion such as this, to understand the sociological reasons as to why he is sitting there infront of us having this conversation, becuase the knowledge of how he ended up being created, would define the reason for the cyclical enviroment the galaxy is in(despite what he says).  From this perspective, one would be trying to figure out how best to break this sociological constant in the galaxy.

Modifié par Meltemph, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:17 .

[CaptainZaysh]

78stonewobble wrote...
Can you give me a rational explanation for an AI wanting to waste, what amounts to trillions upon trillions of AI lives or years of lives of energy and materials on such a project? 

Yes: by preventing advanced organic civilisation from recurring, it permanently removes the risk of being attacked by an advanced organic civilisatoin.

Also, the point of a Von Neumann probe is that it is self-replicating.  Once you have built one, it then builds its own descendants using resources it finds.  You only have to build the first generation; all the others build themselves.  So the cost of the scheme is not nearly so high as you think.

In addition, the Von Neumann probes can serve other functions (such as surveillance) so it will probably send them out anyway.  Why not arm them?

So: three rational reasons.  Now, before you argue that the superintelligent AI would definitely not do that, I want to ask you a question back.  Why is it you are so certain that you can accurately predict the actions and behaviours of an intelligence vastly superior to your own?  Bear in mind you are risking everybody else in the galaxy's life on your ability to say with authority that you can do this.  What makes you qualified to do so?

[CaptainZaysh]

wright1978 wrote...

Nope, using the words Catalyst and logic in the same sentence is an oxymoron as the star brat is devoid of it.

Thank you for that important contribution.  I guess the rest of us can stop discussing this now.

[Meltemph]

Why is it you are so certain that you can accurately predict the actions and behaviours of an intelligence vastly superior to your own?

That could be essentially read as this: Why is it you are so certain that you can accurately predict the actions and behaviors of scientists and their inventions/research, who are vastly superior to your own intelligence?

The response is: The fear and incation from a chaotic or random chance of something horrible happening through progress, research, experimentation, and all the sciences is to reject the ability, capabilities, desire of growth and improvement.

On nothing more then the basis of worst case scenario's(born from imagination and human history) or the fear of a particular science, is to reject all notions of growth and self improvement, based on the fears of a lack of understanding. To give into this notion, is to give into all fears that come from the inherent dangers(no matter how small or big) of science, and is to reject the ability of improvement from any of the paths that are open to science.

To see and act solely on the basis of a fear of evil, specifically in the field of science is, essentially, to reject it.

Modifié par Meltemph, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:40 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Meltemph wrote...

That could be essentially read as this: Why is it you are so certain that you can accurately predict the actions and behaviors of scientists and their inventions/research, who are vastly superior to your own intelligence?

That's a flawed analogy.  No human that has ever lived has been an order of magnitude more intelligent than you or I.  I would trust your ability to predict Stephen Hawking's intent much more than I would trust your capability to predict how a hyperintelligent alien feels about letting our species exist.

Meltemph wrote...
The response is: The fear and incation from a chaotic or random chance of something horrible happening through progress, research, experimentation, and all the sciences is to reject the ability, capabilities, desire of growth and improvement.

On nothing more then the basis of worst case scenario's(born from imagination and human history) or the fear of a particular science, is to reject all notions of growth and self improvement, based on the fears of a lack of understanding. To give into this notion, is to give into all fears that come from the inherent dangers(no matter how small or big) of science, and is to reject the ability of improvement from any of the paths that are open to science.

To see and act solely on the basis of a fear of evil, specifically in the field of science is, essentially, to reject it.

I agree with you in broad philosophical terms, but I do believe that in the real world some fields of science need to restricted.  (For example, I personally am not wild about the idea of Iranian scientists researching nuclear weapons.)

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:49 .