265 réponses à ce sujet

[davishepard]

Steelcan wrote...

That notion was disproven the second the quarians turned the geth into a smoldering wreck

It was proven when geth rebelled agains the quarians. It was proven again when the geth turned the quarian into a smoldering wreck, since more than one outcome to the war is possible. The end of the war doesn't invalidate the fact that the geth indeed rebelled. The end of the war doesn't mean that machines will never again rebel against their creators.
You have observed facts from one cycle, the Catalyst from many. You being arrogant if you think some events you witnessed have the weight to disprove the Catalyst claim.

Modifié par davishepard, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:28 .

[CaptainZaysh]

MegaSovereign wrote...

"Beyond your comprehension" is a cop out. Especially when the people writing it are just as human as we are.

Lovecraft used it all the time, and lots of people still hugely enjoy his stories even today.  You are arguing that science fiction writers should never write about aliens more intelligent than humans.

[mass perfection]

Then why does the Catalyst give us three choices that affects that of which we can't comprehend?According to you,that's like asking someone your daughter's age to choose the fate of the civil war in Libya.

[davishepard]

MegaSovereign wrote...

"Beyond your comprehension" is a cop out. Especially when the people writing it are just as human as we are.

The Reapers judge themselves above everyone else. It fits every word they say.

[Steelcan]

davishepard wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
That notion was disproven the second the quarians turned the geth into a smoldering wreck

It was proven when geth rebelled agains the quarians. It was proven again when the geth turned the quarian into a smoldering wreck, since more than one outcome to the war is possible. The end of the war doesn't invalidate the fact that the geth indeed rebelled. The end of the war doesn't mean that machines will never again rebelle against their creators.
You have observed facts from one cycle, the Catalyst from many. You being arrogant if you think some events you witnessed have the weight to disprove the Catalyst claim.

. The Catlayst claims that ALL creations WILL destroy their creators.  The mere existence of the option to kill the geth disproves his claim.

the Morning War is irrelevant to the ending, only the conclusion of Rannoch.  And since it is theoretically possible in any
game to kill the geth, the Catalyst is wrong.  That's the issue with absolutist claims, one instance can disprove the whole mess.

Furthermore, the quarians would have destroyed the geth easily if the reapers hadn't intervened.

[drayfish]

arial wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Except for the part where he tells us in very plain language. The Reapers are here to kill you so you don't make synthetics that kill you.

It isn't confusing or anything, it's just plain flat out stupid.

once again, we get that interpratation because we are not evolved enough as a species for him to be able to accurately explain his purpose.

like when my Cousin goes shopping for a new Video Card, he thinks he understands what the sales person is saying, even though in reality he does not. he ends up going home with a part that is not compatible, because he does not have enough knowledge in the IT field to understand what the sales person is telling him, even if he thinks he does..

we as a species are not evolved enough to understand what he is actually trying to say, even if we think we do.

'Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!  Do not arouse the wrath of the great and powerful Catalyst! I said I am incomprehensible!  Now kill yourself.  For reasons...'

Modifié par drayfish, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:33 .

[Zardoc]

Another arial thread. Keep moving folks, nothing to see here.

[IMNOTCRAZYiminsane]

drayfish wrote...

arial wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Except for the part where he tells us in very plain language. The Reapers are here to kill you so you don't make synthetics that kill you.

It isn't confusing or anything, it's just plain flat out stupid.

once again, we get that interpratation because we are not evolved enough as a species for him to be able to accurately explain his purpose.

like when my Cousin goes shopping for a new Video Card, he thinks he understands what the sales person is saying, even though in reality he does not. he ends up going home with a part that is not compatible, because he does not have enough knowledge in the IT field to understand what the sales person is telling him, even if he thinks he does..

we as a species are not evolved enough to understand what he is actually trying to say, even if we think we do.

'Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!  Do not arouse the wrath of the great and powerful Catalyst! I said I am incomprehensible!  Now kill yourself.  For reasons...'

for reasons my tallest Red and Purple have told me to do 

[VLX11387]

drayfish wrote...

arial wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Except for the part where he tells us in very plain language. The Reapers are here to kill you so you don't make synthetics that kill you.

It isn't confusing or anything, it's just plain flat out stupid.

once again, we get that interpratation because we are not evolved enough as a species for him to be able to accurately explain his purpose.

like when my Cousin goes shopping for a new Video Card, he thinks he understands what the sales person is saying, even though in reality he does not. he ends up going home with a part that is not compatible, because he does not have enough knowledge in the IT field to understand what the sales person is telling him, even if he thinks he does..

we as a species are not evolved enough to understand what he is actually trying to say, even if we think we do.

'Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!  Do not arouse the wrath of the great and powerful Catalyst! I said I am incomprehensible!  Now kill yourself.  For reasons...'

Damn dray, I thought you disappeared after the thread on your article. Glad you're back nonetheless ^^

[davishepard]

Steelcan wrote...
The Catlayst claims that ALL creations WILL destroy their creators.  The mere existence of the option to kill the geth disproves his claim.

the Morning War is irrelevant to the ending, only the conclusion of Rannoch.  And since it is theoretically possible in any
game to kill the geth, the Catalyst is wrong.  That's the issue with absolutist claims, one instance can disprove the whole mess.

Furthermore, the quarians would have destroyed the geth easily if the reapers hadn't intervened.

It disproves nothing. The Catalyst don't state the time when synthetics will destroy all organics, but only that this would ultimately happen. Nothing showed in ME series disproves its claim, since the future is not showed. Yet, the Catalyst was created eons before the current cycle, and it has saw this happen before.

You cant pick what is valid and what it's not. Series of events create the galaxy story, not just the conclusion of such events.

Again, you fail to understand. Even if the geth were to be destroyed, they did rebel against the quarians. It could happen again. It probably would. The Catalyst wouldn't risk it, so the cycles.

Modifié par davishepard, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:41 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Steelcan wrote...

The Catlayst claims that ALL creations WILL destroy their creators.  The mere existence of the option to kill the geth disproves his claim.

Firstly, I think it says "rebel against", not "destroy".

Secondly and more importantly, you are interpreting its words in an absurdly literal way.  Unless you believe that it means that all t-shirts will rebel against their creators, you have to accept that it is speaking somewhat figuratively.

[Steelcan]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Catlayst claims that ALL creations WILL destroy their creators.  The mere existence of the option to kill the geth disproves his claim.

Firstly, I think it says "rebel against", not "destroy".

Secondly and more importantly, you are interpreting its words in an absurdly literal way.  Unless you believe that it means that all t-shirts will rebel against their creators, you have to accept that it is speaking somewhat figuratively.

"Without us Synthetics would destroy all organics"

[Steelcan]

davishepard wrote...
It disproves nothing. The Catalyst don't state the time when synthetics will destroy all organics, but only that this would ultimately happen. Nothing showed in ME series disproves its claim, since the future is not showed. Yet, the Catalyst was created eons before the current cycle, and it has saw this happen before.

You cant pick what is valid and what it's not. Series of events create the galaxy story, not just the conclusion of such events.

Again, you fail to understand. Even if the geth were to be destroyed, they did rebel against the quarians. It could happen again. It probably would. The Catalyst wouldn't risk it, so the cycles.

. So the fact that organics did in fact prove that we can destroy synthetics, proved that we are not doomed to be killed by them is irrelevant?

the Catalyst never bothers to try and provide evidence for his assertions, he merely states it and we are expected to take it as gospel.  If he did show us a few examples where organics were destroyed by their synthetic creations he'd have an argument, but he doesn't.  He says a absolute statement without evidence to support it, and ignores evidence that runs contrary to it.

[CaptainZaysh]

Steelcan wrote...

"Without us Synthetics would destroy all organics"

And how does the quarians eliminating the geth disprove that?

"Synthetics" does not mean "geth".

[MegaSovereign]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

"Beyond your comprehension" is a cop out. Especially when the people writing it are just as human as we are.

Lovecraft used it all the time, and lots of people still hugely enjoy his stories even today.  You are arguing that science fiction writers should never write about aliens more intelligent than humans.

No, I'm arguing that trying to dismiss whatever misunderstanding you have about the Reaper's motivations as intentional "beyond your comprehension" writing isn't valid. The fact is, the EC and Leviathan DLC was all about explaining their motivations. It should be clear at this point. Whether you like it or not is one thing but this is not Lovecraftian writing.

[Steelcan]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

"Without us Synthetics would destroy all organics"

And how does the quarians eliminating the geth disprove that?

"Synthetics" does not mean "geth".

Destroying the geth proves that organics are not doomed to synthetics.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Steelcan wrote...

Except for the part where he tells us in very plain language. The Reapers are here to kill you so you don't make synthetics that kill you.

It isn't confusing or anything, it's just plain flat out stupid.

Exactly. There's nothing complicated about it. It's just plain stupid and doesn't make any sense to a sane person.

[CaptainZaysh]

Steelcan wrote...

Destroying the geth proves that organics are not doomed to synthetics.

No, it doesn't.  By itself, one instance of Faction A defeating Faction B doesn't prove anything.  Like I said before, you're being unscientific.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:51 .

[Wayning_Star]

arial wrote...

 people here say ther Catalysts logic is either "Stupid" or, Completely wrong".

but in truth, it fits exactly what the Reapers have said since our good old friend Sovereign talked to us on Virmire.

"you can not comprehend our existence".

thus, the Catalyst is fitting exactly what he said.

you can say "no, thats wrong, its dumb", but think about it.

If I walked into my Daughters Kindergarden class, and began to lecture them on why the civil war in Libya happened a few years ago, they would call it "a stupid lesson", because they are not old or smart enough to comprehend my logic.

same with Catalyst.

He has been around millions of years more then any other creature (with the Exception of the Leviathans), thus he has much more experience with the way the universe works.

We may think we are grasping what he is trying to tell us, but in fact we are not. we have not been around long enough for him to be able to accurately describe his purpose.

Just like I would have no way to accurately describe the Libyian Civil war to someone of my daughters age, the Catalyst can not accurately describe his meaning, to a civilization that has been around as short as ours.

I think, litterally is that most fan just plain reject what the reaper is saying. If folks'd be honest, the first time they get to interface directly with a reaper, they didn't like anything about it and basically put them on ignore.

The idea of 'understanding' is based on the connection, otherwise everyone could instantly agree with each other what any idea the others present,or know for a fact that idea isn't correct and agree that it isn't.

Now, if you think about it after actaully meeting up with the reaper boss, and find out exactly what is up with that, then you can think back and say those reapers lied. But..at the time, you couldn't of understood why it would say anything was beyond your understanding. Eventhough, after that, you'd still NOT understand(or want to) why the reapers actually perform harvest. It's easy to understand that harvest doesn't align with your perogatives,as the harvestee...

Anyways, you still don't actually understand the logic provided by any reapership, as they're not fully informed of the logic regarding harvest. The catalyst only theorizes with it in any event.

I think the gap here is the communcation of absolute thinking, or mind set. Generally we cannot and in most cases will not think in absolutes. We're not wired for it. The cat and friends are wired for it as is the Leviathan, their creator/designer race.

Try it some time, everything you think and say cannot function unless you KNOW it to be completely true and factual. Absolutely NO cheating..(imaginative thoughts/add on's.) 

(good luck with that..)

[Meltemph]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

"Beyond your comprehension" is a cop out. Especially when the people writing it are just as human as we are.

Lovecraft used it all the time, and lots of people still hugely enjoy his stories even today.  You are arguing that science fiction writers should never write about aliens more intelligent than humans.

That is kind of the point.  Lovecraft does a very good job and hiding what is behind the curtain, so what was "beyond our comprehension" actually felt like that.  However, the only way for that way of telling a story to work, is if the plot, all the way to the end, stays consistent like that. Outside of the discussion with Sovergn, at no point beyond this did I ever feel the fear of the unknown, in the series.

Modifié par Meltemph, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:06 .

[CaptainZaysh]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Exactly. There's nothing complicated about it. It's just plain stupid and doesn't make any sense to a sane person.

It might be more complicated than you think, because you didn't get it.

The Reapers are not here to kill you so you don't make synthetics that kill you.  They are here to kill you so you don't make synthetics that kill everybody.

[arial]

Steelcan wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

"Without us Synthetics would destroy all organics"

And how does the quarians eliminating the geth disprove that?

"Synthetics" does not mean "geth".

Destroying the geth proves that organics are not doomed to synthetics.

that is until a more powerful Synthetic race is created, one that we can not defeat

[capn233]

This thread proves IT.

[davishepard]

Steelcan wrote...
. So the fact that organics did in fact prove that we can destroy synthetics, proved that we are not doomed to be killed by them is irrelevant?

the Catalyst never bothers to try and provide evidence for his assertions, he merely states it and we are expected to take it as gospel.  If he did show us a few examples where organics were destroyed by their synthetic creations he'd have an argument, but he doesn't.  He says a absolute statement without evidence to support it, and ignores evidence that runs contrary to it.

The quarian destroyed the geth, this time (going along with this possible outcome to the war). This time. It does nothing to disprove Catalyst logic. Its only a recent event. Again, it has saw it before. Do you think that the Catalyst would came up with such a drastic solution as the cycles if it didn't thought it was the only option? The Catalyst was created to solve a problem, and it is why it presents the new options made possible by the Crucible. It wants to solve the problem it was created to solve.

It says that this happened before. What good would do if it said that X synthetics destroyed Y organics in the 25523rd cycle? Would you require recorded evidence along with it? Maybe recorded statements from a species that saw it all happen from a safe distance?

There is no evidence to disprove its claims. It has events from eons before to back up what it says. It has saw it, and has no reason to lie.

Modifié par davishepard, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:57 .

[Steelcan]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Destroying the geth proves that organics are not doomed to synthetics.

No, it doesn't.  By itself, one instance of Faction A defeating Faction B doesn't prove anything.  Like I said before, you're being unscientific.

. Actually since the Catalyst's argument is absolutist he needs to not have any counter examples. words like "inevitable" show that he believes that there is a 100% chance of synthetics destroying organics, a Quarian victory proves this wrong.