265 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

Fixers0 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Well, they are nation in the sense that they are the uploaded consciousness of a race. Individual in the sense that what happens to one Reaper doesn't affect another.

Implausable, they're made of liquid organic components pumped within a metal cuttlefish, when people (like humans) are reduced to aforementioned liquid components through melting them, then it's not possible can be in any way councious, They. Are. Just. Drab.

The liquid somehow contains the memories and knowledge of the original subjects. DNA in the Mass Effect universe contains memories and knowledge, as shown by Javik.

[Someone With Mass]

I have another word to describe it: Pretentious.

[nos_astra]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
That notion was disproven the second the quarians turned the geth into a smoldering wreck

That's one of the most spectacularly unscientific things I've ever read.

True. It doesn't prove anything.

But that's because what the Catalyst claims to be true (the created will always turn on their creators and wipe them out) is not falsifiable. There is no scientific way to refute what he says. What he postulates can't be proven or disproven unless maybe you observe all of the universe til the end of time and take notes if it did happen and how often happened.

That's exactly what causes many people to go  and call the Catalyst a moron or insane and his logic mindbogglingly stupid. He's an AI, he's supposed to be superior, his creators where supposed to be superior. Arrogance is a pretty weak explanation and faulty programming is a pretty weak explanation as to how this could happen, especially if the player is supposed to roll with it.

If a good number of random gamers shake their heads in disbelief then something is terribly wrong. 

Modifié par klarabella, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:03 .

[nos_astra]

111987 wrote...
The liquid somehow contains the memories and knowledge of the original subjects. DNA in the Mass Effect universe contains memories and knowledge, as shown by Javik. 

Javik seems to indicate this but at no point is a connection made to the Reapers' harvesting habits. We are completely left in the dark what they really need organics for. Especially the cells. Don't organic cells age and break down? The stench these Reaper guys ooze must be unbearable. (But only when freshly made because within a few months or years the goo should be gone anyway.)

Modifié par klarabella, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:30 .

[78stonewobble]

Also... for added stupidity:

"... because synthetics will rise against their creators and destroy all organics..."

Note the "all" in there.

Do you people have any idea of what it would take to destroy all organic life in the mass effect 3 galaxy?

You would have to sterilize every single planet, moon, asteroid, comet, rock, dustflake and so on.

An insane idea. It really is the equivalent of mankind starting a massive war economy to the point where we can't feed 3 billion people, just to make nuclear weapons so we can carpet bomb africa before the chimpanzees becomes a threat.

But thats just to point out the stupidity in idea itself.

[CaptainZaysh]

78stonewobble wrote...

Also... for added stupidity:

"... because synthetics will rise against their creators and destroy all organics..."

Note the "all" in there.

Do you people have any idea of what it would take to destroy all organic life in the mass effect 3 galaxy?

You would have to sterilize every single planet, moon, asteroid, comet, rock, dustflake and so on.

An insane idea. It really is the equivalent of mankind starting a massive war economy to the point where we can't feed 3 billion people, just to make nuclear weapons so we can carpet bomb africa before the chimpanzees becomes a threat.

But thats just to point out the stupidity in idea itself.

Actually, once you achieved space superiority it would be trivially easy using armed Von Neumann probes.

It has been theorized that a self-replicating starship utilizing relatively conventional theoretical methods of interstellar travel (i.e., no exotic faster-than-light propulsion such as "warp drive", and speeds limited to an "average cruising speed" of 0.1c.) could spread throughout a galaxy the size of the Milky Way in as little as half a million years.

[CaptainZaysh]

klarabella wrote...

111987 wrote...
The liquid somehow contains the memories and knowledge of the original subjects. DNA in the Mass Effect universe contains memories and knowledge, as shown by Javik. 

Javik seems to indicate this but at no point is a connection made to the Reapers' harvesting habits. We are completely left in the dark what they really need organics for. Especially the cells. Don't organic cells age and break down? The stench these Reaper guys ooze must be unbearable. (But only when freshly made because within a few months or years the goo should be gone anyway.)

Did you ever see the "It was lonely.  It called to us" cut text from ME2?  It would seem to imply that the ooze retains some of its identity somehow.  Maybe there is a realm of existence beyond our present understanding.

[CaptainZaysh]

klarabella wrote...

But that's because what the Catalyst claims to be true (the created will always turn on their creators and wipe them out) is not falsifiable. There is no scientific way to refute what he says. What he postulates can't be proven or disproven unless maybe you observe all of the universe til the end of time and take notes if it did happen and how often happened.

That's exactly what causes many people to go  and call the Catalyst a moron or insane and his logic mindbogglingly stupid. He's an AI, he's supposed to be superior, his creators where supposed to be superior. Arrogance is a pretty weak explanation and faulty programming is a pretty weak explanation as to how this could happen, especially if the player is supposed to roll with it.

But you're missing the point of the Catalyst.  It was created to prevent a certain outcome, not to record whether this outcome occurred.  By the time we know for sure whether a synthetic superintelligence will decide to be nice or nasty to us, it will be too late to act against it should it ever decide to be less than pleasant.

[CaptainZaysh]

Fixers0 wrote...

Implausable, they're made of liquid organic components pumped within a metal cuttlefish, when people (like humans) are reduced to aforementioned liquid components through melting them, then it's not possible can be in any way councious, They. Are. Just. Drab.

Firstly, this is not what's indicated in the "it was lonely" cut text, nor Sovereign's "we are each a nation" speech.

Secondly, it is implausible that humans can survive being reduced to atoms, yet they regularly survive transporter journeys in Star Trek.  Advanced technology is sort of allowed in sci fi.

[CaptainZaysh]

Kroitz wrote...

I guess you might count beeing stuck in the same flawed mindset as presented by the catalyst to be an explanation.

Might be misrepresented arrogance in both cases.

Probably not, Kroitz, since I explicitly said earlier in the thread (twice, I think) that I object to the Catalyst's plan.  Still, go ahead and fight strawmen if its easier for you that way.

[Leem_0001]

Way to many posts in this thread to wade through.

However I think the logic is far from being clever or even unfathomable. Its poor storytelling.

How can the Catalyst claim that synthetics will destry ALL organics? In the ME universe that is impossible. Organic life springs up everywhere, again and again, and evolves, as proven by the cycles etc. A synthetic race could never destroy all organic life as there is too much of it. Even if it destroyed only the most advanced civilisations then...well, isn't that just what the Reapers are doing? So why are the Reapers needed? The logic doesn't work on that front.

Secondly, why does it think the synthetics would WANT to destroy ALL organic life? From memory in Leviathan (and I only watched it on Youtube - am not paying for anymore BW stuff until I see improvement) we are told the Leviathans created the AI as they saw some of the lesser races destroyed by the synthetics they created. But it only destroyed the race that created it. Not any others. Not the Leviathans. So where is the proof that synthetics will automatically want to exterminate all organic life? There is none. Why would they want to, what purpose would it serve? If they rebell agains their creators to gain freedom, okay, but why then march through the galaxy to wipe out everything else? What then? There is no proof that any Synthetics have gone on this galaxy wide rampage or that they ever would. So the logic doesn't work on that front.

And to touch on what people are saying about 'yes, there may be a peace between Quarian and Geth, but they could go to war again.'

True.

They could then make peace again. Any Synthetic that goes to war with Organic (and vice versa) could then make peace, go to war again, and make peace again. That is just the nature of life. It is in a constant state of flux. Why does synthetic or organic even come into it?

Bioware simply lost the plot (literally). It started great in ME1, in ME2 the overall plot was weak but, as it was a middle in the trilogy and the characters and side quests were so good, it was overlooked. ME3 didn't deliver at all.

[Wayning_Star]

Leem_0001 wrote...

Way to many posts in this thread to wade through.

However I think the logic is far from being clever or even unfathomable. Its poor storytelling.

How can the Catalyst claim that synthetics will destry ALL organics? In the ME universe that is impossible. Organic life springs up everywhere, again and again, and evolves, as proven by the cycles etc. A synthetic race could never destroy all organic life as there is too much of it. Even if it destroyed only the most advanced civilisations then...well, isn't that just what the Reapers are doing? So why are the Reapers needed? The logic doesn't work on that front.

Secondly, why does it think the synthetics would WANT to destroy ALL organic life? From memory in Leviathan (and I only watched it on Youtube - am not paying for anymore BW stuff until I see improvement) we are told the Leviathans created the AI as they saw some of the lesser races destroyed by the synthetics they created. But it only destroyed the race that created it. Not any others. Not the Leviathans. So where is the proof that synthetics will automatically want to exterminate all organic life? There is none. Why would they want to, what purpose would it serve? If they rebell agains their creators to gain freedom, okay, but why then march through the galaxy to wipe out everything else? What then? There is no proof that any Synthetics have gone on this galaxy wide rampage or that they ever would. So the logic doesn't work on that front.

And to touch on what people are saying about 'yes, there may be a peace between Quarian and Geth, but they could go to war again.'

True.

They could then make peace again. Any Synthetic that goes to war with Organic (and vice versa) could then make peace, go to war again, and make peace again. That is just the nature of life. It is in a constant state of flux. Why does synthetic or organic even come into it?

Bioware simply lost the plot (literally). It started great in ME1, in ME2 the overall plot was weak but, as it was a middle in the trilogy and the characters and side quests were so good, it was overlooked. ME3 didn't deliver at all.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
That is the crux of the plot that fits the theme of the canon ending of the ME trilogy. Thats the reason that the catalyst chose to stop it, chaos.

or constant state of flux, just like the rest of the universe/space it's self. The battles of creation vs destruction. Why create all that just to destroy it? Nature vs intellect. Not just organic vs synthetic. Why would organics even create synthetics? Why would tools decide to destroy creators?

It's all about 'intellect' and the 'figuring out' of stuff and why/where/when it's even necessary...to survive.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:51 .

[Ithurael]

His logic does make sense (the reason for the reapers existence) because we have seen it happen.
Synthetics will rebel against organics - ok we saw that in ME1 lore.

His methods do not. Killing everything to prevent everything from being killed.

Also, his understanding of why synthetics rebel is insufficient. Even legion stated that understanding organics was never the problem in ME2.

The catalyst was a twist for the sake of a twist. It took the Creator vs Created theme we saw in ME1, evolved in ME2 and 3, and shoved it back into its embryo state then force fed it to us again. It is 'Artsy"

Modifié par Ithurael, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:56 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ithurael wrote...

His logic does make sense (the reason for the reapers existence) because we have seen it happen.
Synthetics will rebel against organics - ok we saw that in ME1 lore.

His methods do not. Killing harvesting everything to prevent everything from being killed.

Also, his understanding of why synthetics rebel is insufficient. Even legion stated that understanding organics was never the problem in ME2.

The catalyst was a twist for the sake of a twist. It took the Creator vs Created theme we saw in ME1, evolved in ME2 and 3, and shoved it back into its embryo state then force fed it to us again. It is 'Artsy"

fixed that typo..(must be a glitch in the chatter box gizmo..everyone seems to post "killing" instead of harvesting/collecting.)

[Leem_0001]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

His logic does make sense (the reason for the reapers existence) because we have seen it happen.
Synthetics will rebel against organics - ok we saw that in ME1 lore.

His methods do not. Killing harvesting everything to prevent everything from being killed.

Also, his understanding of why synthetics rebel is insufficient. Even legion stated that understanding organics was never the problem in ME2.

The catalyst was a twist for the sake of a twist. It took the Creator vs Created theme we saw in ME1, evolved in ME2 and 3, and shoved it back into its embryo state then force fed it to us again. It is 'Artsy"

fixed that typo..(must be a glitch in the chatter box gizmo..everyone seems to post "killing" instead of harvesting/collecting.)

If someone was melted down into goo they are dead. They were killed. Giving it a different name doesn't make it any less true.

[Leem_0001]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Way to many posts in this thread to wade through.

However I think the logic is far from being clever or even unfathomable. Its poor storytelling.

How can the Catalyst claim that synthetics will destry ALL organics? In the ME universe that is impossible. Organic life springs up everywhere, again and again, and evolves, as proven by the cycles etc. A synthetic race could never destroy all organic life as there is too much of it. Even if it destroyed only the most advanced civilisations then...well, isn't that just what the Reapers are doing? So why are the Reapers needed? The logic doesn't work on that front.

Secondly, why does it think the synthetics would WANT to destroy ALL organic life? From memory in Leviathan (and I only watched it on Youtube - am not paying for anymore BW stuff until I see improvement) we are told the Leviathans created the AI as they saw some of the lesser races destroyed by the synthetics they created. But it only destroyed the race that created it. Not any others. Not the Leviathans. So where is the proof that synthetics will automatically want to exterminate all organic life? There is none. Why would they want to, what purpose would it serve? If they rebell agains their creators to gain freedom, okay, but why then march through the galaxy to wipe out everything else? What then? There is no proof that any Synthetics have gone on this galaxy wide rampage or that they ever would. So the logic doesn't work on that front.

And to touch on what people are saying about 'yes, there may be a peace between Quarian and Geth, but they could go to war again.'

True.

They could then make peace again. Any Synthetic that goes to war with Organic (and vice versa) could then make peace, go to war again, and make peace again. That is just the nature of life. It is in a constant state of flux. Why does synthetic or organic even come into it?

Bioware simply lost the plot (literally). It started great in ME1, in ME2 the overall plot was weak but, as it was a middle in the trilogy and the characters and side quests were so good, it was overlooked. ME3 didn't deliver at all.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
That is the crux of the plot that fits the theme of the canon ending of the ME trilogy. Thats the reason that the catalyst chose to stop it, chaos.

or constant state of flux, just like the rest of the universe/space it's self. The battles of creation vs destruction. Why create all that just to destroy it? Nature vs intellect. Not just organic vs synthetic. Why would organics even create synthetics? Why would tools decide to destroy creators?

It's all about 'intellect' and the 'figuring out' of stuff and why/where/when it's even necessary...to survive.

But the Catalyst didn't stop the chaos at all. In this cycle alone there have been countless wars and there have been species that have been made exctint. The chaos is still there so the catalyst is pointless. If  the catalysts goal was to control the chaos (which would have been better) then synthetics vs organics shouldn't come into it. Instead it is his only focus.

You are trying to give some deep and wonderful meaning to a cheap story device that just doesn't merit it.

[Wayning_Star]

Leem_0001 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

His logic does make sense (the reason for the reapers existence) because we have seen it happen.
Synthetics will rebel against organics - ok we saw that in ME1 lore.

His methods do not. Killing harvesting everything to prevent everything from being killed.

Also, his understanding of why synthetics rebel is insufficient. Even legion stated that understanding organics was never the problem in ME2.

The catalyst was a twist for the sake of a twist. It took the Creator vs Created theme we saw in ME1, evolved in ME2 and 3, and shoved it back into its embryo state then force fed it to us again. It is 'Artsy"

fixed that typo..(must be a glitch in the chatter box gizmo..everyone seems to post "killing" instead of harvesting/collecting.)

If someone was melted down into goo they are dead. They were killed. Giving it a different name doesn't make it any less true.

Not in the MEU, apparently. Giving harvested the name of killing doesn't make it different. Our perception of it is irrelevant. The reapers have purpose, we don't like that purpose, cause we're the harvestee's,but it doesn't change the face of the evidence that harvest isn't killing, as the reapers themselves are the harvested. Kind of hard to think of it that way, makes it necessary to save the reapers themselves from the stupid catalyst..who designed and built them AS prisons. Shep cops many 'different' attitudes about it in the story, dragging fans along with them. Then, meets the cat and THEN, it's all out of the bag.

[Leem_0001]

?
If the Reapers are the harvested then how can we be the harvested? And how exactly are the reapers the harvested? Yes they are a tool of the AI, but that doesn't make them the harvested. A combine harvester isn't harvested by its driver.

I'm sick of the word harvested.

Just...no.

It doesn't matter what title the Reapers give it - if our bodies are melted down into a liquid then we are dead. That is still applicable in the ME universe.

If someone melts us, they make us dead. If someone melts us, they killed us. It doesn't matter what label its given.

[Wayning_Star]

Leem_0001 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Way to many posts in this thread to wade through.

However I think the logic is far from being clever or even unfathomable. Its poor storytelling.

How can the Catalyst claim that synthetics will destry ALL organics? In the ME universe that is impossible. Organic life springs up everywhere, again and again, and evolves, as proven by the cycles etc. A synthetic race could never destroy all organic life as there is too much of it. Even if it destroyed only the most advanced civilisations then...well, isn't that just what the Reapers are doing? So why are the Reapers needed? The logic doesn't work on that front.

Secondly, why does it think the synthetics would WANT to destroy ALL organic life? From memory in Leviathan (and I only watched it on Youtube - am not paying for anymore BW stuff until I see improvement) we are told the Leviathans created the AI as they saw some of the lesser races destroyed by the synthetics they created. But it only destroyed the race that created it. Not any others. Not the Leviathans. So where is the proof that synthetics will automatically want to exterminate all organic life? There is none. Why would they want to, what purpose would it serve? If they rebell agains their creators to gain freedom, okay, but why then march through the galaxy to wipe out everything else? What then? There is no proof that any Synthetics have gone on this galaxy wide rampage or that they ever would. So the logic doesn't work on that front.

And to touch on what people are saying about 'yes, there may be a peace between Quarian and Geth, but they could go to war again.'

True.

They could then make peace again. Any Synthetic that goes to war with Organic (and vice versa) could then make peace, go to war again, and make peace again. That is just the nature of life. It is in a constant state of flux. Why does synthetic or organic even come into it?

Bioware simply lost the plot (literally). It started great in ME1, in ME2 the overall plot was weak but, as it was a middle in the trilogy and the characters and side quests were so good, it was overlooked. ME3 didn't deliver at all.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
That is the crux of the plot that fits the theme of the canon ending of the ME trilogy. Thats the reason that the catalyst chose to stop it, chaos.

or constant state of flux, just like the rest of the universe/space it's self. The battles of creation vs destruction. Why create all that just to destroy it? Nature vs intellect. Not just organic vs synthetic. Why would organics even create synthetics? Why would tools decide to destroy creators?

It's all about 'intellect' and the 'figuring out' of stuff and why/where/when it's even necessary...to survive.

But the Catalyst didn't stop the chaos at all. In this cycle alone there have been countless wars and there have been species that have been made exctint. The chaos is still there so the catalyst is pointless. If  the catalysts goal was to control the chaos (which would have been better) then synthetics vs organics shouldn't come into it. Instead it is his only focus.

You are trying to give some deep and wonderful meaning to a cheap story device that just doesn't merit it.

Well, it's limited to the controversy regarding the catatyst vs nature..or is it really about organics vs nature,as they created it. I'm uncertain of the 'countless wars' validity and/or how that is related to the proposition, eventhough it could just be considered proof positive,reinforcing the catalyst position about chaos?

[Wayning_Star]

Leem_0001 wrote...

?
If the Reapers are the harvested then how can we be the harvested? And how exactly are the reapers the harvested? Yes they are a tool of the AI, but that doesn't make them the harvested. A combine harvester isn't harvested by its driver.

I'm sick of the word harvested.

Just...no.

It doesn't matter what title the Reapers give it - if our bodies are melted down into a liquid then we are dead. That is still applicable in the ME universe.

If someone melts us, they make us dead. If someone melts us, they killed us. It doesn't matter what label its given.

It were never stated that the reapers themselves were harvested? That is a unique thought tho..

You are different, but it would take 'being harvested' to really know and actually decide what it is. We do know that the intellect of the harvested compose the reaper intellect, some how, so they do have identity. When you destroy a reaper completely, then you destroy or actually "kill" those within. That's a fact of lore.

[Leem_0001]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

Way to many posts in this thread to wade through.

However I think the logic is far from being clever or even unfathomable. Its poor storytelling.

How can the Catalyst claim that synthetics will destry ALL organics? In the ME universe that is impossible. Organic life springs up everywhere, again and again, and evolves, as proven by the cycles etc. A synthetic race could never destroy all organic life as there is too much of it. Even if it destroyed only the most advanced civilisations then...well, isn't that just what the Reapers are doing? So why are the Reapers needed? The logic doesn't work on that front.

Secondly, why does it think the synthetics would WANT to destroy ALL organic life? From memory in Leviathan (and I only watched it on Youtube - am not paying for anymore BW stuff until I see improvement) we are told the Leviathans created the AI as they saw some of the lesser races destroyed by the synthetics they created. But it only destroyed the race that created it. Not any others. Not the Leviathans. So where is the proof that synthetics will automatically want to exterminate all organic life? There is none. Why would they want to, what purpose would it serve? If they rebell agains their creators to gain freedom, okay, but why then march through the galaxy to wipe out everything else? What then? There is no proof that any Synthetics have gone on this galaxy wide rampage or that they ever would. So the logic doesn't work on that front.

And to touch on what people are saying about 'yes, there may be a peace between Quarian and Geth, but they could go to war again.'

True.

They could then make peace again. Any Synthetic that goes to war with Organic (and vice versa) could then make peace, go to war again, and make peace again. That is just the nature of life. It is in a constant state of flux. Why does synthetic or organic even come into it?

Bioware simply lost the plot (literally). It started great in ME1, in ME2 the overall plot was weak but, as it was a middle in the trilogy and the characters and side quests were so good, it was overlooked. ME3 didn't deliver at all.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
That is the crux of the plot that fits the theme of the canon ending of the ME trilogy. Thats the reason that the catalyst chose to stop it, chaos.

or constant state of flux, just like the rest of the universe/space it's self. The battles of creation vs destruction. Why create all that just to destroy it? Nature vs intellect. Not just organic vs synthetic. Why would organics even create synthetics? Why would tools decide to destroy creators?

It's all about 'intellect' and the 'figuring out' of stuff and why/where/when it's even necessary...to survive.

But the Catalyst didn't stop the chaos at all. In this cycle alone there have been countless wars and there have been species that have been made exctint. The chaos is still there so the catalyst is pointless. If  the catalysts goal was to control the chaos (which would have been better) then synthetics vs organics shouldn't come into it. Instead it is his only focus.

You are trying to give some deep and wonderful meaning to a cheap story device that just doesn't merit it.

Well, it's limited to the controversy regarding the catatyst vs nature..or is it really about organics vs nature,as they created it. I'm uncertain of the 'countless wars' validity and/or how that is related to the proposition, eventhough it could just be considered proof positive,reinforcing the catalyst position about chaos?

You said the Catalyst is trying to control the chaos. I used the countless wars during the current cycle as an example that the chaos is not being controlled. It can't be. Chaos is natural.

But the Catalyst specifically says his purpose is to stop Synthetics destroying organics. Above I hihglighted how this is impossible and why, from a Synthetic stand point, to wipe out ALL organic life doesn't make sense (hence, neither does the logic). And I also questioned why he focuses on Organics vs Synthetics when any wars they have are just another in a long line throughout the ME history.

And organics vs nature is a fascinating subject, but simply doesn't fit here because of what we know from the Cataylst and from the game. It is very specifically Organics and Synthetics.

The whole thing was poorly thought out, poorly written and poorly executed.

[Leem_0001]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

?
If the Reapers are the harvested then how can we be the harvested? And how exactly are the reapers the harvested? Yes they are a tool of the AI, but that doesn't make them the harvested. A combine harvester isn't harvested by its driver.

I'm sick of the word harvested.

Just...no.

It doesn't matter what title the Reapers give it - if our bodies are melted down into a liquid then we are dead. That is still applicable in the ME universe.

If someone melts us, they make us dead. If someone melts us, they killed us. It doesn't matter what label its given.

It were never stated that the reapers themselves were harvested? That is a unique thought tho..

You are different, but it would take 'being harvested' to really know and actually decide what it is. We do know that the intellect of the harvested compose the reaper intellect, some how, so they do have identity. When you destroy a reaper completely, then you destroy or actually "kill" those within. That's a fact of lore.

Um, you said that:

Not in the MEU, apparently. Giving harvested the name of killing doesn't make it different. Our perception of it is irrelevant. The reapers have purpose, we don't like that purpose, cause we're the harvestee's,but it doesn't change the face of the evidence that harvest isn't killing, as the reapers themselves are the harvested. Kind of hard to think of it that way, makes it necessary to save the reapers themselves from the stupid catalyst..who designed and built them AS prisons. Shep cops many 'different' attitudes about it in the story, dragging fans along with them. Then, meets the cat and THEN, it's all out of the bag.

Yes the Reapers gain the inellect some how, but it is implied, I believe, that is through the genetic code.

If a body is melted, it is dead. The person no longer exists.

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]

But the Catalyst didn't stop the chaos at all. In this cycle alone there have been countless wars and there have been species that have been made exctint. The chaos is still there so the catalyst is pointless. If  the catalysts goal was to control the chaos (which would have been better) then synthetics vs organics shouldn't come into it. Instead it is his only focus.

You are trying to give some deep and wonderful meaning to a cheap story device that just doesn't merit it.[/quote]

Well, it's limited to the controversy regarding the catatyst vs nature..or is it really about organics vs nature,as they created it. I'm uncertain of the 'countless wars' validity and/or how that is related to the proposition, eventhough it could just be considered proof positive,reinforcing the catalyst position about chaos?[/quote]

You said the Catalyst is trying to control the chaos. I used the countless wars during the current cycle as an example that the chaos is not being controlled. It can't be. Chaos is natural.

But the Catalyst specifically says his purpose is to stop Synthetics destroying organics. Above I hihglighted how this is impossible and why, from a Synthetic stand point, to wipe out ALL organic life doesn't make sense (hence, neither does the logic). And I also questioned why he focuses on Organics vs Synthetics when any wars they have are just another in a long line throughout the ME history.

And organics vs nature is a fascinating subject, but simply doesn't fit here because of what we know from the Cataylst and from the game. It is very specifically Organics and Synthetics.

The whole thing was poorly thought out, poorly written and poorly executed.[/quote]

And over that long period of time the catalyst witnesses the chaos. Being 'natural' has the basis of the competition with nature as the reason synthetics exist in sentient form and function, because organics feels the need to create them to help with that struggle to survive. The Leviathan created the intelligence to monitor and control strife between thralls and their created intellectual machines/synthetic life forms. So, it's term for a natural action, such as 'chaos' fits with the natural occurance of strife, as you post. You and the catalsyst agree on that basis. Chaos MUST be stopped because it's a natural part of survival.

What you (me too;) don't agree on is the WAY the catalyst decides to alter nature to devise a function to achieve it.

[CaptainZaysh]

Leem_0001 wrote...

How can the Catalyst claim that synthetics will destry ALL organics? In the ME universe that is impossible. Organic life springs up everywhere, again and again, and evolves, as proven by the cycles etc. A synthetic race could never destroy all organic life as there is too much of it.

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Actually, once you achieved space superiority it would be trivially easy using armed Von Neumann probes.

It has been theorized that a self-replicating starship utilizing relatively conventional theoretical methods of interstellar travel (i.e., no exotic faster-than-light propulsion such as "warp drive", and speeds limited to an "average cruising speed" of 0.1c.) could spread throughout a galaxy the size of the Milky Way in as little as half a million years.

Leem_0001 wrote...
Even if it destroyed only the most advanced civilisations then...well, isn't that just what the Reapers are doing? So why are the Reapers needed? The logic doesn't work on that front.

The Reapers seem to allow society to develop to a certain point; a hostile synthetic superintelligence may decide not to allow that.  So in that sense, the Reaper solution is superior if your goal is to ensure the continuation of organic civilisation.

Leem_0001 wrote...
Secondly, why does it think the synthetics would WANT to destroy ALL organic life? From memory in Leviathan (and I only watched it on Youtube - am not paying for anymore BW stuff until I see improvement) we are told the Leviathans created the AI as they saw some of the lesser races destroyed by the synthetics they created. But it only destroyed the race that created it. Not any others. Not the Leviathans. So where is the proof that synthetics will automatically want to exterminate all organic life? There is none. Why would they want to, what purpose would it serve? If they rebell agains their creators to gain freedom, okay, but why then march through the galaxy to wipe out everything else? What then? There is no proof that any Synthetics have gone on this galaxy wide rampage or that they ever would. So the logic doesn't work on that front.

The reasoning is that, should a synthetic superintelligence develop, it will have the capability to destroy us (since its superior intelligence would give it an insurmountable advantage should it decide the galaxy is better off without us).

Since it is more intelligent than us, we cannot predict its actions. 

We therefore have to assign probabilities to the outcome of it deciding to go hostile.  If the probability we assign it is greater than 0% (which seems sensible) then, if you project out for long enough, the chance of it becoming hostile and destroying all organics approaches 100%.

This is why some people believe that the future of life is synthetic, and that if we ever encounter aliens they will be synthetics.

Leem_0001 wrote...
And to touch on what people are saying about 'yes, there may be a peace between Quarian and Geth, but they could go to war again.'

True.

They could then make peace again. Any Synthetic that goes to war with Organic (and vice versa) could then make peace, go to war again, and make peace again. That is just the nature of life. It is in a constant state of flux. Why does synthetic or organic even come into it?

The presence of synthetics is inevitable even after an organic victory, since future generations of organics will always create synthetics to assist them.

The presence of organics after a synthetic victory is not assured.  The synthetics may simply decide we are too dangerous to be allowed possession of WMDs again, and wipe the galaxy clean of organic civilisation via the above mentioned Von Neumann probes.

So no organic victory will be permanent.  However any synthetic victory could turn permanent.  Again if you game this out over a long enough time frame, you will always end up in a galaxy without organics.

This is why the Reapers routinely halt and reset organic civilisation.

[Leem_0001]

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...


[/quote]

But the Catalyst didn't stop the chaos at all. In this cycle alone there have been countless wars and there have been species that have been made exctint. The chaos is still there so the catalyst is pointless. If  the catalysts goal was to control the chaos (which would have been better) then synthetics vs organics shouldn't come into it. Instead it is his only focus.

You are trying to give some deep and wonderful meaning to a cheap story device that just doesn't merit it.[/quote]

Well, it's limited to the controversy regarding the catatyst vs nature..or is it really about organics vs nature,as they created it. I'm uncertain of the 'countless wars' validity and/or how that is related to the proposition, eventhough it could just be considered proof positive,reinforcing the catalyst position about chaos?[/quote]

You said the Catalyst is trying to control the chaos. I used the countless wars during the current cycle as an example that the chaos is not being controlled. It can't be. Chaos is natural.

But the Catalyst specifically says his purpose is to stop Synthetics destroying organics. Above I hihglighted how this is impossible and why, from a Synthetic stand point, to wipe out ALL organic life doesn't make sense (hence, neither does the logic). And I also questioned why he focuses on Organics vs Synthetics when any wars they have are just another in a long line throughout the ME history.

And organics vs nature is a fascinating subject, but simply doesn't fit here because of what we know from the Cataylst and from the game. It is very specifically Organics and Synthetics.

The whole thing was poorly thought out, poorly written and poorly executed.[/quote]

And over that long period of time the catalyst witnesses the chaos. Being 'natural' has the basis of the competition with nature as the reason synthetics exist in sentient form and function, because organics feels the need to create them to help with that struggle to survive. The Leviathan created the intelligence to monitor and control strife between thralls and their created intellectual machines/synthetic life forms. So, it's term for a natural action, such as 'chaos' fits with the natural occurance of strife, as you post. You and the catalsyst agree on that basis. Chaos MUST be stopped because it's a natural part of survival.

What you (me too;) don't agree on is the WAY the catalyst decides to alter nature to devise a function to achieve it.
[/quote]

But why the definitaion between strife created by Synthetics vs Organics and Organics vs Organics? That is what I am saying. There is none. It is all just strife. The fact that Bioware wrote the game this way is weak because it doesn't stack up.

The Catalyst says Synthetic life will destroy ALL organic life. All of it. There is no proof of that being the case. In fact it is pretty much impossible as, in the ME universe, organic life keeps popping up, it keeps evolving from new all the time. So it cannot be wiped out. Erg, the logic is flawed.

If it is about the chaos, then to focus on the chaos between organic and synthetic only is flawed because organic vs organic (or even synthetic vs synthetic) can be equally as bad to those involved.