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[BelowTheBelt]

I'm looking for specific differences in how the engine would treat a sorcerer pale master vs. a wizard pale master  Specifically, at each level of PM, what effects/abilities/feats/spell levels does a sorcerer get vs. a wizard?

It is my understanding that, for example, wizard PMs accrue benefit of increased spells, while sorcerer PMs don't.  Is this true?  What else?

Thanks!

Modifié par BelowTheBelt, 16 janvier 2013 - 03:26 .

[WebShaman]

Basically, the only real difference lies in the differences between Wizard and Sorcerer - namely, Wizards can learn any spell (provided they have not specialized) and Sorcerers can only learn a limited number of spells.

To that, comes bonus feats for Wizards and generally more skill points (due to the Int increase).

The advantage(s) that the Sorcerer has over the Wizard for the sacrifices made are more castings of the spells that she knows and a focus in Cha, which can have some rather interesting applications in Multiclassing...not to mention that Sorcerers generally have great diplomatic and persuasive skills, as well as dominating and intimidating presences.

I personally prefer Wizards, but from a PG perspective (and considering the rather few actual useful PG-based spells), a Sorcerer is better.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Sorcerors know simple weapons as well ( which lets you have mace, sickle, spear, morningstar, dart, and sling which wizards don't get), which makes them a bit easier to start off since you can use a slightly better weapon ( especially if there are buff spells available, or you cast something on it yourself ).

Not a big difference, but something I think most overlook when starting out.

[Sir Adril]

I agree with painofdungeoneternal, people often overlook the benefits of Sorcerer at lower levels. Frankly, I much prefer Sor over Wiz, even without venturing into prestige classes too - that flexibility in spellcasting, and the early advantage those simple weapons provide is incredibly useful, add that to your high charisma, which gives you more non-combat options, and you're really opening up the game at all levels. I think Sorcerer is even more useful in pen and paper.

[HipMaestro]

IMO it's wiz feats and high general skills vs. increased spell-spamming ability and Cha-based skills.

What really determines the final advantage is the potential synergy with the tertiary class. With CoT or BG, for instance, go sorc/PM (pally only w/ alignment manager).  With something like an asn tertiary, wiz/PM makes more sense.

[WhiZard]

BelowTheBelt wrote...

I'm looking for specific differences in how the engine would treat a sorcerer pale master vs. a wizard pale master  Specifically, at each level of PM, what effects/abilities/feats/spell levels does a sorcerer get vs. a wizard?

It is my understanding that, for example, wizard PMs accrue benefit of increased spells, while sorcerer PMs don't.  Is this true?  What else?

Thanks!

To answer your question, there are a lot of problems with sorc/PM character building that are not problematic for building a wizard/PM.

First off, if taking a PM level would unlock a new spell level, then a sorcerer would not be able to take advantage of spells from that level until he levels up again in sorcerer, while a wizard can memorize scrolls to fill the new spell level.

Second, wizards can use the extra spell slots for a greater variety of spells, while the sorcerer is stuck with the spells  known which are often less than the number of slots.

Modifié par WhiZard, 17 janvier 2013 - 03:41 .

[WebShaman]

First off, if taking a PM level would unlock a new spell level, then a sorcerer would not be able to take advantage of spells from that level until he levels up again in sorcerer, while a wizard can memorize scrolls to fill the new spell level.

This, specifically, when not using the PRC (which fixed this, btw). Definitely an engine limitation in vanilla NWN.

[WhiZard]

Palemaster is a difficult class to work with, because it has become overpowered in a direction favoring melee builds, but underpowered in favoring casters.

Overpowered:
Immunity to crits: given that this is the only natural source of the immunity and there is no partial immunity to criticals, this is an automatic favorite as it protects from a whole host of issues in close combat.
AC that stacks with armor: technically the AC increase should prevent the use of armor, on the contrary the two stack making a very high AC build for strength based characters.

Underpowered:
One summon limit: PMs should be able to summon armies. Instead they are granted a summon that while more powerful than most comparable summons is still weak in comparison to a PC.
One spellbook only: PM can only affect one arcane spellbook at a time. Thus a wiz 5/sorc 5/ PM 30 won't master all spells from both books and unlock all spell slots, this severely limits the potential of a large spell arsenal.
No caster level: PM levels do not contribute to the caster level of a wizard or sorcerer. This means that the spells cast by a PM multiclass are easier to resist and are weaker in effects.

[Shadooow]

WhiZard wrote...

One spellbook only: PM can only affect one arcane spellbook at a time. Thus a wiz 5/sorc 5/ PM 30 won't master all spells from both books and unlock all spell slots, this severely limits the potential of a large spell arsenal.

this is correct by the manual however

No caster level: PM levels do not contribute to the caster level of a wizard or sorcerer. This means that the spells cast by a PM multiclass are easier to resist and are weaker in effects.

tip: latest community patch (1.71 RC1) allows add PM levels into caster level, this is toggled either by module builder or by player by spawning a PC widget tool (70_pctool) and enabling this in conversaion.

[WhiZard]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

WhiZard wrote...

One spellbook only: PM can only affect one arcane spellbook at a time. Thus a wiz 5/sorc 5/ PM 30 won't master all spells from both books and unlock all spell slots, this severely limits the potential of a large spell arsenal.

this is correct by the manual however

Yep, stopped at the first paragraph in Tome and Blood which
vaguely indicated any arcane class would be enhanced, later it directly
specified that the player was to choose only one.

No caster level: PM levels do not contribute to the caster level of a wizard or sorcerer. This means that the spells cast by a PM multiclass are easier to resist and are weaker in effects.

tip: latest community patch (1.71 RC1) allows add PM levels into caster level, this is toggled either by module builder or by player by spawning a PC widget tool (70_pctool) and enabling this in conversaion.

If I am not mistaken, monk SR will still resist it at the lower level as you are temporarily lowering the SR of the target to adjust for the PM level.

Modifié par WhiZard, 17 janvier 2013 - 06:30 .

[Shadooow]

WhiZard wrote...

If I am not mistaken, monk SR will still resist it at the lower level as you are temporarily lowering the SR of the target to adjust for the PM level.

yes, still its very nice feature especially usefull (and intented) in low level single player modules

[WhiZard]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

WhiZard wrote...

If I am not mistaken, monk SR will still resist it at the lower level as you are temporarily lowering the SR of the target to adjust for the PM level.

yes, still its very nice feature especially usefull (and intented) in low level single player modules

Then, out of curiosity, in your 1.71 would a wizard 5/ sorcerer 5 / PM 30 have a caster level of 35 for both wizard and sorcerer spells? Also are you including dispellability into your caster level (e.g. if a person tried to dispel an effect created by a PM character, would they suffer a penalty equal to the PM level of the creator?)

Modifié par WhiZard, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:59 .

[BelowTheBelt]

Thanks for all the great replies.  T0 summarize so far, it seems that there are differences in how PMs are implemented in NWN vs. D&D as well as aspects of PMs that are sub-optimized (or highly optimized based on your build goals of melee or caster).

It seems, though, that the only material differences hightlighted as far as the NWN engine treats a NWN sorcerer PM from a NWN wizard PM are:

As PM levels are accrued:
1) Wizard-based PMs continue to unlock higher spell levels. Sorcerer-based PMs do not unlock higher spell levels.
2) Wizard-based PMs expand their spell-slots for lower-level spells as if they were levelling as a wizard. Sorcerer-based PMs do not expand spell uses.

Any other engine-based differences?

How does the PRC fix this? Script or hak?

Modifié par BelowTheBelt, 17 janvier 2013 - 10:10 .

[Shadooow]

WhiZard wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

WhiZard wrote...

If I am not mistaken, monk SR will still resist it at the lower level as you are temporarily lowering the SR of the target to adjust for the PM level.

yes, still its very nice feature especially usefull (and intented) in low level single player modules

Then, out of curiosity, in your 1.71 would a wizard 5/ sorcerer 5 / PM 30 have a caster level of 35 for both wizard and sorcerer spells? Also are you including dispellability into your caster level (e.g. if a person tried to dispel an effect created by a PM character, would they suffer a penalty equal to the PM level of the creator?)

your suspicion is correct, CP adds caster level to both(something i didnt bothered to control), however the bonus is not 30 but 16 as PM by default raises CL (or at least the spell gains) at first and then every odd level. This is controlled by 2da setting and CP reflect it.

and yes, the CL bonus does affect neither dispell checks - all these drawback are written in documentation so Im missing your point - do you want to prove that this feature is useless or what?

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 janvier 2013 - 10:52 .

[WhiZard]

No, more saying caster level is extremely difficult to replicate given the large number of hard-coded uses.

[Empyre65]

For both Wizard and Sorcerer, Pale Master levels will grant you more spell slots as if you leveled in your arcane class. The difference is that a Wizard can learn spells from scrolls to use those higher-level slots, and a Sorcerer can't. A Sorcerer can still use those slots through metamagic, like Extend Spell for example.
the NWNWiki article about Pale Master explains this.

[BelowTheBelt]

Many thanks, Empyre65. This gets to the heart of the matter.

So, at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, etc.. levels of PM, neither a sorcerer's or a wizard's list of available spell levels goes up. However, wizards can learn the higher level through use of scrolls

So, to equalize this, one would either have to:

1) Add the next higher available spell level to sorcerers upon achieving an odd PM level (granting access to all the spells of that level)

or

2) Enable sorcerers to add to their known spells via scroll as wizards

Make sense?

Modifié par BelowTheBelt, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:44 .

[Empyre65]

Sorcerers can cast more spells per day than even specialist Wizards, and they don't have to memorize spells ahead of time, casting spontaneously. The price they pay for this is being unable to learn spells from scrolls, thus having a limited numbers of spells they know. If you let Sorcerers learn spells from scrolls, they will become over-powered, leaving little reason to ever choose Wizard.

[WebShaman]

So, to equalize this, one would either have to:

1) Add the next higher available spell level to sorcerers upon achieving an odd PM level (granting access to all the spells of that level)

or

2) Enable sorcerers to add to their known spells via scroll as wizards

Make sense?

The PRC addresses this issue, however, since much is hardcoded, it is gotten around by scripting it - the PRC uses a Convo type system to learn spells by.

There is currently no other way to address this issue that I am aware of, since it is hardcoded.