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[CosmicGnosis]

-Why did Legion pull a 180 from his Mass Effect 2 philosophy?

"He and the Geth were backed into a corner. They'd been made a lot dumber by the attack on the Dyson swarm. There was no other choice for Geth survival."

This is apparently from a fan "interview" with Patrick Weekes, although the answers are paraphrased.

I guess this is indeed the official reason for why Legion abandoned his ME2 philosophy?

Source: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:02 .

[xsdob]

Legion has no reason to choose self-destruction over self-preservation. That is a completely organic response without real logic to back it up.

Legion doing what it takes to make sure the geth survive seems much more logical and "in character" for a lifeform designed to function on pure logic, like how the geth in ME2 are apparently suppose to be.

Modifié par xsdob, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:04 .

[BleedingUranium]

Legion clearly disagreed with the Geth's decision, and was also unaffected by the Quarians' "flashbang" attack as well as the Reaper attack on the sphere.

The Reapers were basically offering a baby candy, the baby's going to take it, even if it's a bad idea, it can't know better. That's what happened to the Geth, they can't be blamed for it, the Reapers took advantage of them.

And Legion never abandoned anything.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:22 .

[xsdob]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Legion clearly disagreed with the Geth's decision, and was also unaffected by the Quarians' "flashbang" attack as well as the Reaper attack on the sphere.

The Reapers were basically offering a baby candy, the baby's going to take it, even if it's a bad idea, it can't know better. That's what happened to the Geth, they can't be blamed for it, the Reapers took advantage of them.

Legion also had a consensus seperate from the main geth consensus, which is what made him so special in the first place, hence why he was the first and sometimes only mobile platform unit in exsistence. And it was more like offereing a force getting pounded reinforcements to help then in the battle. It was take those reinforcements, or be wiped out, and the logical decision was to take the reinforcements and continue exsisting.

Modifié par xsdob, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:24 .

[BleedingUranium]

xsdob wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Legion clearly disagreed with the Geth's decision, and was also unaffected by the Quarians' "flashbang" attack as well as the Reaper attack on the sphere.

The Reapers were basically offering a baby candy, the baby's going to take it, even if it's a bad idea, it can't know better. That's what happened to the Geth, they can't be blamed for it, the Reapers took advantage of them.

Legion also had a consensus seperate from the main geth consensus, which is what made him so special in the first place, hence why he was the first and sometimes only mobile platform unit in exsistence. And it was more like offereing a force getting pounded reinforcements to help then in the battle. It was take those reinforcements, or be wiped out, and the logical decision was to take the reinforcements and continue exsisting.

Yes, that's much closer. The main point was that their intelligence was significantly reduced, people seem to forget that and judge the Geth as if they were as smart as they normally are, which is unfair.

[nos_astra]

I wonder why they created this contrived situation that forced the geth to accept Reaper tech and abandon the one thing that made them unique and alien among the mostly very un-alien aliens of ME in order to become individuals, right after freeing the geth from Reaper influence and with a heavy helping of stupid/evil Quarians on top.

Modifié par klarabella, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:57 .

[GimmeDaGun]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

-Why did Legion pull a 180 from his Mass Effect 2 philosophy?

"He and the Geth were backed into a corner. They'd been made a lot dumber by the attack on the Dyson swarm. There was no other choice for Geth survival."

This is apparently from a fan "interview" with Patrick Weekes, although the answers are paraphrased.

I guess this is indeed the official reason for why Legion abandoned his ME2 philosophy?

Source: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234

Because it's a machine with machine logic, needs and wants. It would never be able to think, feel and act like an organic. It does not have morals... it does not have a soul (no matter how much thos people want it to be that way who fell in love with the "character"). That's why you can never fully trust it, that's why it embraces the reaper's tech without a second thought even when they don't need it for survival any more - it only sees the means of development in it (hence they get in "destroy" what is coming for them) that's why it and the geth annihilates every quarian without mercy if you aid them and not the quarians while they whould have the means to intimidate the quarains but spare them. 

That's why it is more of a foreshadowing of the ending and the "flawed" logic of the reapers than the contrary, because it is alien and is in conflict with the organics by its nature and mere existence (even if you make a truce between the two you can't fully trust them). No matte how much you love "bro-Legion". 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:35 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

To be fair.. I always got the impression the Quarians were itching to attack the Geth way back in ME2..

[BleedingUranium]

That's the other thing no one seems to get: Legion's code is not Reaper tech. It's based on it, but not it. Just like Thanix cannons and the Prothean mass relay on Ilos. It's not advancing along the paths they desire, and each case significantly hurts the Reapers.

Also, the Quarians were always the "bad guys" in this conflict, that was nothing new.

[CosmicGnosis]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Because it's a machine with machine logic, needs and wants. It would never be able to think, feel and act like an organic. It does not have morals... it does not have a soul (no matter how much thos people want it to be that way who fell in love with the "character"). That's why you can never fully trust it, that's why it embraces the reaper's tech without a second thought even when they don't need it for survival any more - it only sees the means of development in it (hence they get in "destroy" what is coming for them) that's why it and the geth annihilates every quarian without mercy if you aid them and not the quarians while they whould have the means to intimidate the quarains but spare them. 

That's why it is more of a foreshadowing of the ending and the "flawed" logic of the reapers, because it is alien and is in conflict with the organics by its nature and mere existence (even if you make a truce between the two you can't fully trust them). No matte how much you love "bro-Legion".

Yeah, because alien = bad.

/sarcasm

[xsdob]

pirate1802 wrote...

To be fair.. I always got the impression the Quarians were itching to attack the Geth way back in ME2..

Han'gerral wanting to go to war, Xen doing as much as she could to study the geth, Tali's father conducting illegal research into how to disrupt and control the geth consensus.

I agree.

Also, fun fact. Thanks to legion being compsoed of 1,183 programs, he is almost 12 times smarter than your average geth platform.

Modifié par xsdob, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:38 .

[BleedingUranium]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Because it's a black person with black person logic, needs and wants. It would never be able to think, feel and act like a white person.
It does not have morals... it does not have a soul (no matter how much
thos people want it to be that way who fell in love with the
"character"). That's why you can never fully trust it, that's why it
embraces the reaper's tech without a second thought even when they don't
need it for survival any more - it only sees the means of development
in it (hence they get in "destroy" what is coming for them) that's why
it and the black people annihilates every slave owner without mercy if you aid them and not the slave owners while they whould have the means to intimidate the slave owners but spare them. 

That's
why it is more of a foreshadowing of the ending and the "flawed" logic
of the reapers than the contrary, because it is alien and is in conflict
with the white people by its nature and mere existence (even if
you make a truce between the two you can't fully trust them). No matte
how much you love "bro-Legion".

That's what you sound like.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:43 .

[GimmeDaGun]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Because it's a machine with machine logic, needs and wants. It would never be able to think, feel and act like an organic. It does not have morals... it does not have a soul (no matter how much thos people want it to be that way who fell in love with the "character"). That's why you can never fully trust it, that's why it embraces the reaper's tech without a second thought even when they don't need it for survival any more - it only sees the means of development in it (hence they get in "destroy" what is coming for them) that's why it and the geth annihilates every quarian without mercy if you aid them and not the quarians while they whould have the means to intimidate the quarains but spare them. 

That's why it is more of a foreshadowing of the ending and the "flawed" logic of the reapers, because it is alien and is in conflict with the organics by its nature and mere existence (even if you make a truce between the two you can't fully trust them). No matte how much you love "bro-Legion".

Yeah, because alien = bad.

/sarcasm

It wasn't even amusing.  I use the word "alien" in its philosophical, rethorical way. Eg. The reapers are completely "alien" to us organics because they are machines, hence we can't understand them or agree with them. I don't say that if someone is different then it is bad... but try to read my post for what it is.

Anyway, thanks for not calling me a racist straightway for something that you misunderstood. <_<

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:50 .

[GimmeDaGun]

BleedingUranium wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Because it's a black person with black person logic, needs and wants. It would never be able to think, feel and act like a white person. It does not have morals... it does not have a soul (no matter how much thos people want it to be that way who fell in love with the "character"). That's why you can never fully trust it, that's why it embraces the reaper's tech without a second thought even when they don't need it for survival any more - it only sees the means of development in it (hence they get in "destroy" what is coming for them) that's why it and the black people annihilates every slave owner without mercy if you aid them and not the slave owners while they whould have the means to intimidate the slave owners but spare them. 

That's why it is more of a foreshadowing of the ending and the "flawed" logic of the reapers than the contrary, because it is alien and is in conflict with the white people by its nature and mere existence (even if you make a truce between the two you can't fully trust them). No matte how much you love "bro-Legion".

This is what you sound like.

Sorry, but what's the damage man?  Oh my God, you people are... I wouldn't even comment on this one.  Use your brains once in a while before you go all "politically correct" offensive mode. Evidently that's not what I was trying to suggest, but please misinterpret it deliberately. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:44 .

[CosmicGnosis]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

It wasn't even amusing.  I use the word "alien" in its philosophical, rethorical way. Eg. The reapers are completely aliens to us organics because they are machines, hence we can't understand them or agree with them. I don't say that if someone is different is bad... but try to read my post for what it is.

Anyway, thanks for not calling me a racist straightway for something that you misunderstood. <_<

I just think that your rationalization is an attempt to justify the Destroy choice. It's very easy to pick it if you don't consider the geth to be valid sapient beings.

[GimmeDaGun]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

It wasn't even amusing.  I use the word "alien" in its philosophical, rethorical way. Eg. The reapers are completely aliens to us organics because they are machines, hence we can't understand them or agree with them. I don't say that if someone is different is bad... but try to read my post for what it is.

Anyway, thanks for not calling me a racist straightway for something that you misunderstood. <_<

I just think that your rationalization is an attempt to justify the Destroy choice. It's very easy to pick it if you don't consider the geth to be valid sapient beings.

They are "sapient" but not alive... they don't have morals and fears, human (organic) kind of desires, souls. So I don't consider them living, breathing beings and treat them equals to organics. I'm not a materialist, I believe in the spirituality of the human being (I even dare to believe in God): that we are more than mere flesh and chemical reactions which makes our thoughts (mere brain activity). So it is not a "rationalization" or an attempt to justify anything. It's what I think. Sorry for using my right of free speech in order to express what I think without being offensive or trying to force it on others... that's why I find it curious that some of you took it as offensive or racist.

Inb4 anyone calls me a religious, racist bigot. I'm not: I am a conservative yes, and I'm catholic yes, but it does not mean that I'm racist or despise science (evolution) etc. For f.'s sake, I'm a medical doctor, how the hell would I do that? Sorry for this otuburst, but calling me a racist without a reason offended me. So I'm a bit upset and sad at the same time. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:57 .

[CosmicGnosis]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

It wasn't even amusing.  I use the word "alien" in its philosophical, rethorical way. Eg. The reapers are completely aliens to us organics because they are machines, hence we can't understand them or agree with them. I don't say that if someone is different is bad... but try to read my post for what it is.

Anyway, thanks for not calling me a racist straightway for something that you misunderstood. <_<

I just think that your rationalization is an attempt to justify the Destroy choice. It's very easy to pick it if you don't consider the geth to be valid sapient beings.

They are "sapient" but not alive... they don't have morals and fears, human (organic) kind of desires, souls. So I don't consider them living, breathing beings and treat them equals to organics. I'm not a materialist, I believe in the spirituality of the human being: that we are more than mere flash and chemical reactions which makes our thoughts (mere brain activity). So it is not a "rationalization" or an attempt to justify anything. It's what I think. Sorry for using my right for free speech and express what I think without being offensive... that's why I find it curious that some of you took it as offensive or racist.

See, I use "soul" to refer to personhood. So the geth question is really this: "Is this unit a person?"

Also, you believe that something needs to have emotions and ethics in order to truly be a person. I guess you would probably accept this altered version of Descartes' famous statement:

"I feel, therefore I am."

I don't believe that emotions make any being more alive than another. This is why I find the Destroy choice to be so loathsome...

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:01 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Plants have none of those things too. hell many living beings don't have them. Guess they are not alive.

[BleedingUranium]

Regardless of anyone's real life views, or whether real AI could ever be life, in the Mass Effect universe they are as much life as magic exists in the Lord of the Rings universe.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Legion also defends the geth's actions two different times. And, as a unique platform, he was not dumbed-down.

[Indy_S]

The fact that Legion reacted to the Quarians wiping out the Geth in the way they he does seems to me like self-preservation and an act to preserve the species. So, living as slaves is better than dying. I get that, I really do, but the Geth have no legitimate reason to not abandon Rannoch. They have no emotional attachment to it. And if they just left, the Quarians wouldn't pursue. Turning to the Reapers seems like the least reliable way to ensure survival of the species. They believe Legion's testimony that the Reapers will kill everything, so why join them?

And then they just get the Reaper code to make every Geth v2 program the equivalent of a thousand v1 programs. They said they wanted to develop their own way, but they didn't. Following the paths of others led to war on every previous attempt, but here it's 'okay'? Emancipating a slave race that already had liberty didn't feel quite as thematically rewarding as the writers thought it would.

[BleedingUranium]

Th Geth have as much right to live on Rannoch as the Quarians.

Legion's code was not Reaper tech.

[GimmeDaGun]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

It wasn't even amusing.  I use the word "alien" in its philosophical, rethorical way. Eg. The reapers are completely aliens to us organics because they are machines, hence we can't understand them or agree with them. I don't say that if someone is different is bad... but try to read my post for what it is.

Anyway, thanks for not calling me a racist straightway for something that you misunderstood. <_<

I just think that your rationalization is an attempt to justify the Destroy choice. It's very easy to pick it if you don't consider the geth to be valid sapient beings.

They are "sapient" but not alive... they don't have morals and fears, human (organic) kind of desires, souls. So I don't consider them living, breathing beings and treat them equals to organics. I'm not a materialist, I believe in the spirituality of the human being: that we are more than mere flash and chemical reactions which makes our thoughts (mere brain activity). So it is not a "rationalization" or an attempt to justify anything. It's what I think. Sorry for using my right for free speech and express what I think without being offensive... that's why I find it curious that some of you took it as offensive or racist.

See, I use "soul" to refer to personhood. So the geth question is really this: "Is this unit a person?"

Also, you believe that something needs to have emotions and ethics in order to truly be a person. I don't believe that.

And I guess you would probably accept this altered version of Descartes' famous statement:

"I feel, therefore I am."

Descartes was a very intelligent philosopher and a roman catholic believer, believe it or not, and his famous statement has a lot deeper philosophical value and a deeper meaning to it than how people use it nowadays to prove something with it. There's more to it. We take it for face value as everything else nowadays. 

I understand you. But to me life (in the philosophical meaning of the word) is a lot more than mere biological existence and the capability to mimick thoughts or being capable of thinking (even Descartes knew that). Also the existence of AIs are hypothetical ... they are non-existent. So Descartes only spoke about human beings, the only known born being which is capable of thinking. So this quote is quite out of premise if we try to take it out of its context. Even we know no AIs, but judging by their theoretical human created nature, they are not living beings, only replicas at best.

So I do understand and accept what Descartes say, but I also know (even he knew) that it is not a definition of life, only an approximation of the recognition of human existence. Just like Saint Thomas Aquinas' quote of "I believe, therefore I am.". It is also taken out of context and taken literally assuming that it has no deeper thought put into it, but only demonstrates the usual blind religious way of thinking of the medieval era (while Thomas Aquinas was one of the greatest philosophers of our European culture even taken seriously by non-believer philosophers). 

Anyway... don't take me for a stupid bigot please. I'm no materialist or atheist, I'm no modern liberal either, but I have a faint idea about life, death and people myself, being a medical doctor in Central-Europe. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:32 .

[GimmeDaGun]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Regardless of anyone's real life views, or whether real AI could ever be life, in the Mass Effect universe they are as much life as magic exists in the Lord of the Rings universe.

Thanks for the "gospel" statement, but I'd rather take it as your individual opinion. And last I checked, the ME games pretty much leave lots of space for an open interpretation of the question (that's one of the main themes of the series, especially ME3 and it's up to you to decide wether you consider them being alive or not). So, no, I don't see it being written in stone anywhere. 

Oh, and thanks again for suggesting me being a racist in my last post. It was very kind and intelligent of you, really. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:29 .

[GimmeDaGun]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Th Geth have as much right to live on Rannoch as the Quarians.

Legion's code was not Reaper tech.

Yeah, that's an opinion. I can respect it, but I don't fully agree with it. 


As for your second line - what the f. is this then?

www.youtube.com/watch