276 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

It's not majority rule. Consensus =/= democracy

If by "living" you mean biologically living, then no, they're not. But that's just as relevant as not including fish because they live in water.

If by "living" you mean philosophically, then yes, they are. They're sapient beings, which makes them just as much people as any other sapient being.



And doing the work other people should have done is basically Shepard's offical job throughout all three games.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 19 janvier 2013 - 06:41 .

[Dunabar]

BleedingUranium wrote...

It's not majority rule. Consensus =/= democracy

If by "living" you mean biologically living, then no, they're not. But that's just as relevant as not including fish because they live in water.

If by "living" you mean philosophically, then yes, they are. They're sapient beings, which makes them just as much people as any other sapient being.

Horses - living creatures
Fish - living creatures
Geth - Not living creatures. Why? They don't bleed, they don't have hearts that pump blood to even bleed, and they don't require the basic needs like an organic does.

Though I will say thats what I love about Quarian-Geth debates. Different views of what we all deem as "alive" or "living" or whatever.

[BleedingUranium]

Dunabar wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

It's not majority rule. Consensus =/= democracy

If by "living" you mean biologically living, then no, they're not. But that's just as relevant as not including fish because they live in water.

If by "living" you mean philosophically, then yes, they are. They're sapient beings, which makes them just as much people as any other sapient being.

Horses - living creatures
Fish - living creatures
Geth - Not living creatures. Why? They don't bleed, they don't have hearts that pump blood to even bleed, and they don't require the basic needs like an organic does.

Though I will say thats what I love about Quarian-Geth debates. Different views of what we all deem as "alive" or "living" or whatever.

I literally address that in the post you quoted, and agree with that part.

There are two definitions of the word "life/alive" as we're using it: biological (being made of organic matter) and philisophical (being people/sapient).

-Fish are biologically alive but not philosphically alive.
-Geth are philisophically alive but not biologically alive.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 19 janvier 2013 - 06:45 .

[Fayfel]

Technically geth do bleed. They're filled with a conductive fluid.

[Cyrax86]

Dunabar wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

snip*

Exactly, nobody is giving the quarians any aid and yet they want the aid of the quarians. The quarians don't owe anyone anything, but because they're organic like the other species they're still willing to talk and help. Fighting the Reapers is just as much their fight as anyones and yet people blame the quarians, when its actually the quarians who are in the hardest spot of all.

What seems to me to be the most common geth support belief is - If you hold the geth responsible for the heretics, then you need to hold the alliance responsible for cerberus. But the big difference between these two is this - The Alliance makes efforts to stop cerberus, the geth make NO efforts to stop the suppose "Heretics"

Just fyi Cyrax86, im not targetting you by any means. Just saying lol

True(about Geth supporters), but my biggest complaint is that they portray them as perfectly innocent(with with wings, halo's and harps playing everytime we see one), yet they demonize the entire Quarian race. 
TBH, im enjoying this conversation

[Dunabar]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

It's not majority rule. Consensus =/= democracy

If by "living" you mean biologically living, then no, they're not. But that's just as relevant as not including fish because they live in water.

If by "living" you mean philosophically, then yes, they are. They're sapient beings, which makes them just as much people as any other sapient being.

Horses - living creatures
Fish - living creatures
Geth - Not living creatures. Why? They don't bleed, they don't have hearts that pump blood to even bleed, and they don't require the basic needs like an organic does.

Though I will say thats what I love about Quarian-Geth debates. Different views of what we all deem as "alive" or "living" or whatever.

I literally address that in the post you quoted, and agree with that part.

There are two definitions of the word "life/alive" as we're using it: biological (being made of organic matter) and philisophical (being people/sapient).

-Fish are biologically alive but not philosphically alive.
-Geth are philisophically alive but not biologically alive.

But fish and other living creatures do think, maybe not in a complex degree as humans do but they do think. Nowe we can probably go further into organic stuff like grass, trees, and the likes but I think we will end up having a massive headache lol.

Geth -may- come to some sort of mathmatical answer that makes them go "Im alive" but they're still not alive just because some mathmatical process makes them say that through some audio hardware or whatever.

[Dunabar]

Amakiir wrote...

Technically geth do bleed. They're filled with a conductive fluid.

Which is not made by an organic heart. If they were to use an organic heart, it would only make me want to shoot them more because that would be creepy.

[Indy_S]

That's the philosophical part. Kind of "I think, therefore I am".

[BleedingUranium]

Thinking is not sapience, and being sapient is what makes a person a person. The Geth are sapient, and therefore people.

And remember that your brain is just a bunch of electrical signals inside a computer, the only difference is that yours is made of organic materials. It's still a computer though.

[Dunabar]

Cyrax86 wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

snip*

Exactly, nobody is giving the quarians any aid and yet they want the aid of the quarians. The quarians don't owe anyone anything, but because they're organic like the other species they're still willing to talk and help. Fighting the Reapers is just as much their fight as anyones and yet people blame the quarians, when its actually the quarians who are in the hardest spot of all.

What seems to me to be the most common geth support belief is - If you hold the geth responsible for the heretics, then you need to hold the alliance responsible for cerberus. But the big difference between these two is this - The Alliance makes efforts to stop cerberus, the geth make NO efforts to stop the suppose "Heretics"

Just fyi Cyrax86, im not targetting you by any means. Just saying lol

True(about Geth supporters), but my biggest complaint is that they portray them as perfectly innocent(with with wings, halo's and harps playing everytime we see one), yet they demonize the entire Quarian race. 
TBH, im enjoying this conversation

Exactly. They deem four quarians (three of which I don't feel are as bad as people believe them to be) enough to kill the whole race, but go "oh its just heretics, not real geth" when it comes to all those geth that attacked us over the last two games. It just makes me shake my head.

Im enjoying the conversation also, this whole conflict to me was better than the krogan genophage cure. Hell if Bioware based the whole game around the Quarian-geth conflict of this particuler timeline, I would have been pleased beyond words lol.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

That's the philosophical part. Kind of "I think, therefore I am".

Yes, that's all I'm saying, and it's not even really related to which side is "right" in the conflict or anything like that. Geth are not biologically alive, but they are philisophically alive.

Think about ME's galactic society, who is in it? Varren? Pyjaks? Cats? No. Why? Because they're not people. They're (bilogically) alive, sure, but they're not people. So being a person is what matters, right? The Geth are people, so they should count the same as any other sapient race.


And as for the conflict, while I would side with the Geth, I will never do anything other than make peace. I may disagree with some Quarians about their attitude on and intentions with the Geth, but I'd never kill an entire race over that, especially when I have the ability to save everyone.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 19 janvier 2013 - 07:10 .

[Dunabar]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Thinking is not sapience, and being sapient is what makes a person a person. The Geth are sapient, and therefore people.

And remember that your brain is just a bunch of electrical signals inside a computer, the only difference is that yours is made of organic materials. It's still a computer though.

But I have free will to think as I wish. If I wanted to believe the geth were "alive" I could, but I don't and nobody has to agree with me. The fact that others have the same like minded belief as I is only something of chance. Some chances are higher than others, but its still chance. It's not programmed into my mind that I have to follow anyones orders other than the orders I believe to be right in my own free thinking.

To me the geth are just a bunch of computers that were programmed to make the same mathmatical calculation That doesn't make them alive, just means they followed a pre-programmed process. Geth don't have free will like that of you or I or any other human.

Modifié par Dunabar, 19 janvier 2013 - 07:20 .

[BleedingUranium]

That's entirely wrong, they have free will.

[Dunabar]

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's entirely wrong, they have free will.

If they have free will than their free will made them side with the reapers, the reapers are my enemy, and by joining the reapers the geth became my enemy.

Modifié par Dunabar, 19 janvier 2013 - 07:25 .

[BleedingUranium]

Dunabar wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's entirely wrong, they have free will.

If they have free will then their free will made them side with the reapers, the reapers are my enemy, and by joining the reapers the geth became my enemy.

The Geth had their processing power, their intelligence serverly weakened by both the Quarians' attack on their Dyson Sphere and their newly developed flashbang-like weapon. This reduced the Geth down to animal-level intelligence.

If I'm beating up a dog, and you offer it safety and a (poisoned) dog biscuit, can you blame the dog for going for the shelter and biscuit? Of course not, because it cannot know better.

However, if the Geth were functioning properly, then yes, you'd be absolutely right, and they should be seen as enemies.

[Indy_S]

Were they really reduced to animal-level intelligence? I thought there was still plenty of units left to realise joining the Reapers was a really bad idea, considering that they accepted Legion's testimony to the Reaper's actions and plans.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

Were they really reduced to animal-level intelligence? I thought there was still plenty of units left to realise joining the Reapers was a really bad idea, considering that they accepted Legion's testimony to the Reaper's actions and plans.

That was before the Quarian attack.

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Were they really reduced to animal-level intelligence? I thought there was still plenty of units left to realise joining the Reapers was a really bad idea, considering that they accepted Legion's testimony to the Reaper's actions and plans.

That was before the Quarian attack.

The testimony or the number of units? There's still millions of Geth left and it only takes 1000 to get something as smart as Legion. The remaining units should still be capable of reason.

[Cyrax86]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...
snip *

snip *

snip *

No, there are plenty of other things they could have done. And they've wanted to take Rannoch back ever since they left, but it took them until now to develop the tech to do it.

like what?. Quarians asked the council for help to take Rannoch back, council said no. The council forbid the Quarians from provoking the Geth. The Quarians asked for a new planet, council said no. They are turned away from certain star systems and rarely received any help from the council. The Quarians were on their own and still are. 

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Were they really reduced to animal-level intelligence? I thought there was still plenty of units left to realise joining the Reapers was a really bad idea, considering that they accepted Legion's testimony to the Reaper's actions and plans.

That was before the Quarian attack.

The testimony or the number of units? There's still millions of Geth left and it only takes 1000 to get something as smart as Legion. The remaining units should still be capable of reason.

It's been a while, so I can't remember the details past what I posted, and I don't want to start guessing. Something to the effect of what I said is true though.

[BleedingUranium]

Cyrax86 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...
snip *

snip *

snip *

No, there are plenty of other things they could have done. And they've wanted to take Rannoch back ever since they left, but it took them until now to develop the tech to do it.

like what?. Quarians asked the council for help to take Rannoch back, council said no. The council forbid the Quarians from provoking the Geth. The Quarians asked for a new planet, council said no. They are turned away from certain star systems and rarely received any help from the council. The Quarians were on their own and still are. 

So why didn't the Quarians try to make peace with the Geth?

[What a Succulent Ass]

This was a situation created by the writers. If they didn't want to contradict their own message, they could have easily avoided it.

There is no point here.

[BleedingUranium]

Random Jerkface wrote...

This was a situation created by the writers. If they didn't want to contradict their own message, they could have easily avoided it.

There is no point here.

What message was contradicted? Siding with the Reapers? I've explained that. Legion's so-called Reaper code? I've explained that as well.

[Dunabar]

BleedingUranium wrote...
The Geth had their processing power, their intelligence serverly weakened by both the Quarians' attack on their Dyson Sphere and their newly developed flashbang-like weapon. This reduced the Geth down to animal-level intelligence.

If I'm beating up a dog, and you offer it safety and a (poisoned) dog biscuit, can you blame the dog for going for the shelter and biscuit? Of course not, because it cannot know better.

However, if the Geth were functioning properly, then yes, you'd be absolutely right, and they should be seen as enemies.

So I offer it safety just to poison it? Defeats the cause of offering it shelter when I can just let you beat the poor creature to death. I wouldn't let anyone harm an innocent creature in front of me, unless of course that creature attacked someone because then it would be perfectly deserved. But yet I wouldn't let a human beat another human into the dirt unless there was  properly provided reason with hard solid proof to believe it's deserved. Even then I wouldn't let the person on the ground be killed, but if he did something bad enough to deserve it than that will be how they learn their lesson (if they don't well...more hardship to come I guess)

However the way you break it down with geth, its basically "Join us and continue to be functional till its time we harvest you or be wiped out by the organic enemy"

^-- If this was the case indeed. Than I myself would say (if it was me in that situtation) its better to die free, than live as a slave to anyone. So if you want to deem their calculations as "free will" or "desire to survive" thats your call. I think its just a scrambled computer needing to be deactivated before some advanced computer finds a mathmatical process to change other computers to make the same calculation that come to "destroy organics". Which at this point I would imagine seeing more geth supporters cheering on the reapers for aiding the geth.

[Indy_S]

Random Jerkface wrote...

This was a situation created by the writers. If they didn't want to contradict their own message, they could have easily avoided it.

There is no point here.

There were ways around it, true, but from a narrative perspective, a demonstration of the conflict that was alluded to previously was practically necessary. I didn't like that the Reapers became involved in this war (especially later when their motive is revealed and you discover they're fighting for the wrong side) as it just made the conflict black and white. (Uranium, I still would have preferred depth, that's all). 'Shoot the geth, it's okay, they're bad guys. Now you have the choice to save them. Do you?' It felt forced rather than an organic escalation of the conflict.