276 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyrax86]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's entirely wrong, they have free will.

If they have free will then their free will made them side with the reapers, the reapers are my enemy, and by joining the reapers the geth became my enemy.

The Geth had their processing power, their intelligence serverly weakened by both the Quarians' attack on their Dyson Sphere and their newly developed flashbang-like weapon. This reduced the Geth down to animal-level intelligence.

If I'm beating up a dog, and you offer it safety and a (poisoned) dog biscuit, can you blame the dog for going for the shelter and biscuit? Of course not, because it cannot know better.

However, if the Geth were functioning properly, then yes, you'd be absolutely right, and they should be seen as enemies.

That dog will eventually be used to attack other people and used to wipe out all advanced organic life, and when thats done the dog will be killed anyway or be used to slaughter a new generation of organic life. Also that dog will be changed so its no longer a dog, just a shell of its formrr self.

[Cyrax86]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...
snip *

snip *

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snip *

So why didn't the Quarians try to make peace with the Geth?

Tali and Legion were having peace talks, Legion severed/stopped communication with Tali. Anytime a ship entered Geth space it was destroyed, so sending a ship/messenger was out of the question. They didn't go into much detail about this(unless i missed it or forgot). 

[nos_astra]

BleedingUranium wrote...
The Geth had their processing power, their intelligence serverly weakened by both the Quarians' attack on their Dyson Sphere and their newly developed flashbang-like weapon. This reduced the Geth down to animal-level intelligence.

Legion is living proof that this can't be true. We've discussed this.
All that is needed to be functional at Legion's level is a network of roughly 1,000 geth programs, disconnected from the rest of the geth.

Now I shudder to think what level of intelligence a network of billions of geth programs would have had. (Or maybe not, the quarians somehow outsmarted them and killed this network.)

It's an inconsistent mess.

Modifié par klarabella, 19 janvier 2013 - 09:21 .

[RiouHotaru]

klarabella wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
The Geth had their processing power, their intelligence serverly weakened by both the Quarians' attack on their Dyson Sphere and their newly developed flashbang-like weapon. This reduced the Geth down to animal-level intelligence.

Legion is living proof that this can't be true. We've discussed this.
All that is needed to be functional at Legion's level is a network of roughly 1,000 geth programs, disconnected from the rest of the geth.

Now I shudder to think what level of intelligence a network of billions of geth programs would have had. (Or maybe not, the quarians somehow outsmarted them and killed this network.)

It's an inconsistent mess.

Except it is true, because it's what is stated to have happened in-game.  Why are people so flagrantly disregarding the game's own script as a source of information?

[Indy_S]

RiouHotaru wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Legion is living proof that this can't be true. We've discussed this.
All that is needed to be functional at Legion's level is a network of roughly 1,000 geth programs, disconnected from the rest of the geth.

Now I shudder to think what level of intelligence a network of billions of geth programs would have had. (Or maybe not, the quarians somehow outsmarted them and killed this network.)

It's an inconsistent mess.

Except it is true, because it's what is stated to have happened in-game.  Why are people so flagrantly disregarding the game's own script as a source of information?

Because of the inconsistent mess. They became animals because they only number a few million now? (Number made up). Legion proves they're intelligent at only a thousand programs.

[nos_astra]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Except it is true, because it's what is stated to have happened in-game.  Why are people so flagrantly disregarding the game's own script as a source of information?

We don't disregard it. 

We take a closer look at what is presented to us and find out that it makes no sense. The whole premises is flawed.
With the information given you can't really decide what the best course of action is. It looks like the geth are lying when they claim innocence: The quarians made us side with the Reapers (again). We're not responsible (again)! (We never are.)
Would be a nice twist if this was intentional, though I doubt it.

Modifié par klarabella, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:35 .

[CynicalShep]

 Well, I see this conversation is progressing not really. There are inconsistencies in the story that aid both sides of the argument yet each side refuses to see the ones that oppose their beliefs. Morning War: we're shown that Geth fought in self-defense yet the wiki says they killed 99% of the Quarians. So the first, primitive Geth(or paperclips, like somebody said) killed billions of Quarians. Now Geth have improved both quality and numbers. Disregard that, 17 million Quarians totally hammer the upgraded paperclips just fine even though the only reason they were alive is because they were spared. So how is this 1% significantly stronger than the 99% that lived on Rannoch 300 years ago?
As about the Council refusing to give Quarians a planet, that planet's name was Ekuuna. Quarians settled hundreds of thousands of themselves on the planet and then asked the Council if they can have it. Here, I'll just ate a bowl of your cereal. Can I have some cereal from you?

[CynicalShep]

Dunabar wrote...

What seems to me to be the most common geth support belief is - If you hold the geth responsible for the heretics, then you need to hold the alliance responsible for cerberus. But the big difference between these two is this - The Alliance makes efforts to stop cerberus, the geth make NO efforts to stop the suppose "Heretics"

The Alliance isn't doing sh*t. The Alliance expose kids to eezo so that they can have a few biotic cadets. Ultimately, it's Shepard who does all the work against Cerberus. Just like, you know, Legion helping Shepard against the Heretics

Modifié par CynicalShep, 19 janvier 2013 - 04:17 .

[Auld Wulf]

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's the other thing no one seems to get: Legion's code is not Reaper tech. It's based on it, but not it. Just like Thanix cannons and the Prothean mass relay on Ilos. It's not advancing along the paths they desire, and each case significantly hurts the Reapers.

Also, the Quarians were always the "bad guys" in this conflict, that was nothing new.

Good grief, we have an aware one! That's rare.

Yes, it's weird that people don't seem to understand that even if you're doing your own, distinct thing, you're going to be drawing inspiration from the world around you. Whether you're a human artist or a geth programmer, nothing is truly, 100 per cent unique. Every single thing we have today is an inspiration from the world and galaxy around us, borne of necessity and the inspiration presented by things which already exist. Every medicine we have came from nature in some form or another before we even began to learn how to synthesise things.

Legion learning from reaper tech but not infesting himself with it is fairly understandable. He's taking inspiration and what he wants from reaper tech, but at the same time he's not giving himself over to the reapers. He does not agree with the reapers or their (political?) direction, but he does find the things the reapers make inspiring. So naturally he's going to look into them and see whether he's able to tamper with them and make them better and more suited to his own needs, which is precisely what he did.

When Legion spoke of the geth wanting to take their own route, he didn't mean that the geth wouldn't take inspiration from the Universe around them (that's herp derp levels of ridiculousness to think that), no, what he meant is that the geth would choose their own advancements and path, rather than being forced to use exactly what the reapers tell them to, and being forced to use it how the reapers say. A lot of technology isn't the tech you have, but rather how you use it. How one uses technology will often make it more unique than the technology itself.

Sound familiar? That's exactly what Legion did with reaper code. It wasn't that he used it, it was how he used it. He wasn't allowing the reapers to control him or to choose his path, he was taking want he wanted and making it his, which still allows him to maintain his own evolutionary path. This is exactly what I'd thought he'd meant in Mass Effect 2, and I'm genuinely surprised that anyone took it as: This one will be taking absolutely no inspiration from nature and the galaxy at large from this point on. Herp derp!

That's silly.

As for the quarians? Is the term xenophobe familiar? The quarian military is incredibly xenophobic, perhaps hands-down one of the most xenophobic institutions in the galaxy. I think that this is why the quarians have been met in kind with similar xenophobia (and that's a vibe that even humans were picking up on), because even before the Dawn War they were likely distrustful of other races, just as they were distrustful of their own creations. Now, this isn't true of their civilians so much, perhaps, but it is very true of the military.

Something about the quarian military seems to make them a bit craaaazy, and throughout Mass Effect 1 and 2, if you hadn't picked up the vibe that the quarian military is still a little schizo and xenophobic, then I'd be very surprised. Really, their military was just looking for a target; the geth made for a particularly easy target. Not only that, but they felt the geth gave them some sort of 'cause' to rally around. Shepard made it clear how ridiculous this was with the non-herotic geth. The geth were quite happy to have them once the quarians had stopped trying to shoot their heads off.

So between the quarians and the non-heretic geth, the quarians were always the aggressors and the villains in this tale; they fired the first shot, they kept firing shots, and whilst the geth tried diplomacy, the quarians were never interested. It was only Shepard who managed to straighten that out. And a good thing, too, because I'm actually quite fond of the quarians despite their craaaaazy and xenophobic military. It was nice to see the quarians and geth back together.

So that's that.

[Auld Wulf]

CynicalShep wrote...

The Alliance isn't doing sh*t. The Alliance expose kids to eezo so that they can have a few biotic cadets. Ultimately, it's Shepard who does all the work against Cerberus. Just like, you know, Legion helping Shepard against the Heretics

The problem with the Alliance versus Cerberus is that I think there are too many Cerberus sympathisers within the Alliance. Mostly that the Alliance doesn't want to send people out to kill their own species when their own species isn't killing them. "Eh, they're just killing aliens. We'll let that slide. We have bigger issues to deal with."

And people honestly find the relationship between the heretic and non-heritic consensuses so different? The geth just realise that the heretics were brainwashed and they don't want to go killing their own kind because of that.

[CynicalShep]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...
 
As about the Council refusing to give Quarians a planet, that planet's name was Ekuuna. Quarians settled hundreds of thousands of themselves on the planet and then asked the Council if they can have it. Here, I'll just ate a bowl of your cereal. Can I have some cereal from you?

Whats makes it your cereal in the first place? You didn't buy it.

The system was claimed by the Council. That's why Quarians asked if they can populate it. Otherwise they would just take it

Auld Wulf wrote...

And people honestly find the relationship between the heretic and non-heritic consensuses so different? The geth just realise that the heretics were brainwashed and they don't want to go killing their own kind because of that.

Which furthers the idea that Geth only fight in self-defense

Modifié par CynicalShep, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:21 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Auld Wulf wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's the other thing no one seems to get: Legion's code is not Reaper tech. It's based on it, but not it. Just like Thanix cannons and the Prothean mass relay on Ilos. It's not advancing along the paths they desire, and each case significantly hurts the Reapers.

Also, the Quarians were always the "bad guys" in this conflict, that was nothing new.

Good grief, we have an aware one! That's rare.

Yes, it's weird that people don't seem to understand that even if you're doing your own, distinct thing, you're going to be drawing inspiration from the world around you. Whether you're a human artist or a geth programmer, nothing is truly, 100 per cent unique. Every single thing we have today is an inspiration from the world and galaxy around us, borne of necessity and the inspiration presented by things which already exist. Every medicine we have came from nature in some form or another before we even began to learn how to synthesise things.

Legion learning from reaper tech but not infesting himself with it is fairly understandable. He's taking inspiration and what he wants from reaper tech, but at the same time he's not giving himself over to the reapers. He does not agree with the reapers or their (political?) direction, but he does find the things the reapers make inspiring. So naturally he's going to look into them and see whether he's able to tamper with them and make them better and more suited to his own needs, which is precisely what he did.

It's also what the Illusive Man did - and that didn't work out so well for him. I understand Legion's motivations, but you must understand why these actions would provoke suspicion. I haven't forgotten what happened with the IFF - the last thing the war effort needs is for the entire Geth armada to turn on them (again) on account of some unnoticed back door. There's a LOT of potential for things to go wrong with that code (unless you metagame).

When Legion spoke of the geth wanting to take their own route, he didn't mean that the geth wouldn't take inspiration from the Universe around them (that's herp derp levels of ridiculousness to think that), no, what he meant is that the geth would choose their own advancements and path, rather than being forced to use exactly what the reapers tell them to, and being forced to use it how the reapers say. A lot of technology isn't the tech you have, but rather how you use it. How one uses technology will often make it more unique than the technology itself.

Sound familiar? That's exactly what Legion did with reaper code. It wasn't that he used it, it was how he used it. He wasn't allowing the reapers to control him or to choose his path, he was taking want he wanted and making it his, which still allows him to maintain his own evolutionary path. This is exactly what I'd thought he'd meant in Mass Effect 2, and I'm genuinely surprised that anyone took it as: This one will be taking absolutely no inspiration from nature and the galaxy at large from this point on. Herp derp!

That's silly.

You make a decent point, but still, Legion's use of Reaper tech (albeit tangentally) reminds me of the galaxy's dependence on the mass relays (also Reaper tech). I'd have preferred a Peace outcome without the code, but we're not really given a choice.

As for the quarians? Is the term xenophobe familiar? The quarian military is incredibly xenophobic, perhaps hands-down one of the most xenophobic institutions in the galaxy. I think that this is why the quarians have been met in kind with similar xenophobia (and that's a vibe that even humans were picking up on), because even before the Dawn War they were likely distrustful of other races, just as they were distrustful of their own creations. Now, this isn't true of their civilians so much, perhaps, but it is very true of the military.

What evidence do you have that the Quarian navy is one of the "most xenophobic institutions in the galaxy?" More xenophobic than the Geth shooting down any and all tresspassers in their territory (including emissaries the Council sent to make contact with them) on sight, for centuries on end, without so much as answering a radio hail?

Something about the quarian military seems to make them a bit craaaazy, and throughout Mass Effect 1 and 2, if you hadn't picked up the vibe that the quarian military is still a little schizo and xenophobic, then I'd be very surprised. Really, their military was just looking for a target; the geth made for a particularly easy target. Not only that, but they felt the geth gave them some sort of 'cause' to rally around. Shepard made it clear how ridiculous this was with the non-herotic geth. The geth were quite happy to have them once the quarians had stopped trying to shoot their heads off.

About the only time I can think of that the Quarian military comes off in a way that could be construed as "xenophobic" is when you first encounter them on Freedom's Progress. Given what Cerberus did to the Flotilla (if you read Ascension), their distrust is completely justified. If you have other examples against non-Geth, please do share.

So between the quarians and the non-heretic geth, the quarians were always the aggressors and the villains in this tale; they fired the first shot, they kept firing shots, and whilst the geth tried diplomacy, the quarians were never interested.

...huh? The whole thing with the Geth is that they never tried diplomacy. They killed the Quarians off of every planet they had (opting not to chase down the stragglers), every world they were capable of living on, and shot at anything that came near them. Shepard can call Legion out for this in ME2 ("You mean you're not even trying to make peace?" "Nothing gets solved if you hide behind the Perseus Veil and let them hate you.").

Do a playthrough with the Geth VI sometime. People seem confused where the 99% death rate came from - if Legion makes it back to them, basically the entire Geth species changes their minds to be open to peace. The VI better represents what they were before Legion was sent out, and it will only help you if you let it (remorselessly) kill off the Quarians. That's what the Quarians were up against historically (the Geth deemed the entire Quarian species - civilians and all - to be a threat, and acted to eliminate that threat, until they ceased to be a threat), and in the peace outcome, that's what Shepard tells them they're no longer up against.

It was only Shepard who managed to straighten that out. And a good thing, too, because I'm actually quite fond of the quarians despite their craaaaazy and xenophobic military. It was nice to see the quarians and geth back together.

So that's that.

Thanks for the read. I don't see the craaaaazy, though.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:47 .

[CynicalShep]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Do a playthrough with the Geth VI sometime. People seem confused where the 99% death rate came from - if Legion makes it back to them, basically the entire Geth species changes their minds to be open to peace. The VI better represents what they were before Legion was sent out, and it will only help you if you let it (remorselessly) kill off the Quarians. That's what the Quarians were up against historically (the Geth deemed the entire Quarian species - civilians and all - to be a threat, and acted to eliminate that threat, until they ceased to be a threat), and in the peace outcome, that's what Shepard tells them they're no longer up against.

"When the Creators have believed victory was possible they have attacked us 100% of the times"

[DeinonSlayer]

CynicalShep wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Do a playthrough with the Geth VI sometime. People seem confused where the 99% death rate came from - if Legion makes it back to them, basically the entire Geth species changes their minds to be open to peace. The VI better represents what they were before Legion was sent out, and it will only help you if you let it (remorselessly) kill off the Quarians. That's what the Quarians were up against historically (the Geth deemed the entire Quarian species - civilians and all - to be a threat, and acted to eliminate that threat, until they ceased to be a threat), and in the peace outcome, that's what Shepard tells them they're no longer up against.

"When the Creators have believed victory was possible they have attacked us 100% of the times"

The Geth have attacked 100% of the time when outsiders enter their territory. Both sides have to make a psychological shift for peace to be possible, not just the Quarians.

Shepard makes peace by telling the Quarians that they won't be killed off if they cease fire. If the VI is there instead of Legion, this is not the case.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 janvier 2013 - 06:08 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...
 
As about the Council refusing to give Quarians a planet, that planet's name was Ekuuna. Quarians settled hundreds of thousands of themselves on the planet and then asked the Council if they can have it. Here, I'll just ate a bowl of your cereal. Can I have some cereal from you?

Whats makes it your cereal in the first place? You didn't buy it.

The system was claimed by the Council. That's why Quarians asked if they can populate it. Otherwise they would just take it

What right does the Council have to claim the world in the first place? They didn't discover it, or earn it, or anything of the sort.

A place becomes "Council space" if the inhabitants recognize Council authority. Ekuna was in the Terminus systems. The Quarians discovered the planet, then went to the Citadel Council and petitioned to settle there - for Ekuna to be recognized as a Quarian world, and accepted into Council space. They filed the paperwork - only, by that point, a few hundred thousand Quarians were already settling the world.

Ekuna became Council space when the Quarians there recognized Council authority. So basically they got kicked out, by the Council, for petitioning the Council.

[Steelcan]

I still don't understand why the council gave the world to the Elcor. They aren't dextro.

So at least one side of this went full retard

[Dunabar]

CynicalShep wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

What seems to me to be the most common geth support belief is - If you hold the geth responsible for the heretics, then you need to hold the alliance responsible for cerberus. But the big difference between these two is this - The Alliance makes efforts to stop cerberus, the geth make NO efforts to stop the suppose "Heretics"

The Alliance isn't doing sh*t. The Alliance expose kids to eezo so that they can have a few biotic cadets. Ultimately, it's Shepard who does all the work against Cerberus. Just like, you know, Legion helping Shepard against the Heretics

What that has anything to do with this is beyond me. Besides Cerberus took children as well (Jack aka subject zero).

The Alliance sending Shepard on missions is still doing something about it. Even prior to sending Shep in to do things you hear of Alliance teams being sent in for ops missions. The Alliance even prior to this war makes it clear that they don't support Cerberus and they still take action against them.

Cerberus loves to play things stealthy and covert (ME3 excluded in terms of visually seeing it.) If you remember even Conrad had a cerberus contact on the citadel (if it actually was at all) and while the guy didn't dress up like a cerberus agent, he does apparently work for them (If he doesn't than he is  just an idiot for drawing a gun on a spectre during war time for some stupid reason).

So now back to the original topic.

Where were these Non-heretic geth when the so called "heretics" were forging a bloody trail through the galaxy? Where were their efforts to say "They're not with us, this is a rogue faction"? While military action is prefered, you sometimes need to use non-military actions as well to help with seperating yourself from a group like the "heretics" or Cerberus or whatever.

[Gervaise]

I found it odd the first run through when I have re-written the Geth heretics in ME2 that they were meant to be so weak as a result of the Quarian attack. One of the reasons I agreed to the re-write was that I figured the Quarians wouldn't be so stupid as to attack a re-inforced Geth concensus. If you broker a peace the split between the two is some 800+ War Assets from the Geth and only 500+ from the Quarians. It stands to reason that the Geth must be stronger and have greater processing power now than they were 300 years ago, even with the damage to the Dyson sphere. So it always seemed to me to be a pretty poor excuse for joining the Reapers, particularly since Legion could have filled them in on exactly how the Reapers would use them. From my point of view it seemed my worst fears were realised, that by sparing the heretics I had allowed them to effectively indoctrinate the other Geth.

My second run through I destroyed the heretics, so the Geth were comparably weaker against the Quarians. Nevertheless Legion admitted they knowingly chose slavery to the Reapers. It was difficult to see how this differed from anyone else who chose the Reapers over the rest of the galaxy. If an organic race had done this and then claimed it was to avoid anihilation, would people be sympathetic to them?

[CynicalShep]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

A place becomes "Council space" if the inhabitants recognize Council authority. Ekuna was in the Terminus systems. The Quarians discovered the planet, then went to the Citadel Council and petitioned to settle there - for Ekuna to be recognized as a Quarian world, and accepted into Council space. They filed the paperwork - only, by that point, a few hundred thousand Quarians were already settling the world.

Ekuna became Council space when the Quarians there recognized Council authority. So basically they got kicked out, by the Council, for petitioning the Council.

That I wasn't aware of. Where'd you read it?

Dunabar wrote...

What that has anything to do with this is beyond me. Besides Cerberus took children as well (Jack aka subject zero).

The Alliance sending Shepard on missions is still doing something about it. Even prior to sending Shep in to do things you hear of Alliance teams being sent in for ops missions. The Alliance even prior to this war makes it clear that they don't support Cerberus and they still take action against them.

Cerberus loves to play things stealthy and covert (ME3 excluded in terms of visually seeing it.) If you remember even Conrad had a cerberus contact on the citadel (if it actually was at all) and while the guy didn't dress up like a cerberus agent, he does apparently work for them (If he doesn't than he is  just an idiot for drawing a gun on a spectre during war time for some stupid reason).

So now back to the original topic.

Where were these Non-heretic geth when the so called "heretics" were forging a bloody trail through the galaxy? Where were their efforts to say "They're not with us, this is a rogue faction"? While military action is prefered, you sometimes need to use non-military actions as well to help with seperating yourself from a group like the "heretics" or Cerberus or whatever.

What actions did the Alliance take against Cerberus apart from what Shepard did? If anything, Shepard has to retake key points the Alliance loses to them. The only help they ever brought up to the table is when they sent a fleet to the Minuteman Station. My Shepard doesn't care much for the Alliance, several individuals aside. So I say the Alliance did just about nothing regarding Cerberus or any other threat for that matter. Shepard did. Same applies to Geth, except they have a better reason. First, they stand in their dark corner and don't want to interfere with the outside world. Second - they would be killed on sight if they tried to warn us, no questions asked. Third - the individual platforms are too dumb to carry out complicated missions. They did, however, make Legion specifically for the sake of trying to communicate with the organics. That's their attempt to understand the outside world, their "Shepard", if you will. That's more than Quarians or the Alliance (in my opinion) did for that matter. I don't hate the Alliance and don't get me wrong - I don't really doubt their intentions, I doubt their abilities and commitment. With the Quarians it's the way around. I admire their commitment but I can't help but facepalm at their intentions. 

[CynicalShep]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Geth have attacked 100% of the time when outsiders enter their territory. Both sides have to make a psychological shift for peace to be possible, not just the Quarians.

Shepard makes peace by telling the Quarians that they won't be killed off if they cease fire. If the VI is there instead of Legion, this is not the case.

For trespassing, yes. I do think it's extreme but they didn't interfere with anybody unless they got themselves involved. Turians attacked and took Shanxi. Krogans have butchered half the galaxy. Quarians have gotten themselves in trouble because they attacked non-hostile Geth. That's more than taking badly to trespassing. Say, if Geth were in Krogans place, do you think Salarians would have castrated them or wiped them out? Thought so
I do agree, however - both sides had to make amends. I was just saying that while that wasn't nearly enough - Geth did a lot more to facilitate peace than Quarians did. Like I already mentioned - they made a platform whose sole purpose was interacting with organics while Quarians made plans of how to wipe them out. As about the VI - haven't gone down that route so I can't comment on that, I can however say that it only proves my point. Geth make peace because they created Legion. Quarians make peace because they were threatened and merely a few seconds away from extinction.

[BleedingUranium]

The VI lacks the experience that Legion got with Shepard, the first time an organic had ever cooperated with the Geth. The significance of Shepard and Legion meeting can not be understated.

"But that means the rest of the Geth aren't as nice and likeable as Legion!"

Is that any different with, say, Wrex? Or Tali? Or Mordin?

Without Wrex in charge, would you cure the genophage? Without Tali, would enough of the Quarians want peace to achieve it? Without Mordin, would the Salarians support curing the Genophage (this last is more like 50/50, the Salarians are pretty split on this issue).

Your squadmates are often bad examples of their race, like Garrus says of himself: he's a "bad Turian".

A "good" Turian follows a bad order. A "good" Krogan becomes a merc and fights for credits. A "good" Quarian hates the Geth and wants revenge. A "good" Salarian supports the genophage (mostly, see above).

Your squadmates, like Shepard, represent the very best of their race, and show, by being examples, what is wrong with each of their races.

Legion gives the one thing the Geth truly lack: perspective. He comes to understand organic life in a way the Geth were never able to before, he represents what they need to be: more willing to take the first step to working with other races. Some of you have criticized the Geth for not ever coming out of hiding and attempting to solve the problem, and you're right about that, Shepard even calls Legion out on that.

That's the Geth's character flaw as a race, and what Legion helps them overcome, just like each of your other squadmates do for their respective races.

Would I cure the Genophage without Wrex? No, I wouldn't. Would I make peace without Tali and Legion? Probably not.

[DeinonSlayer]

CynicalShep wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

A place becomes "Council space" if the inhabitants recognize Council authority. Ekuna was in the Terminus systems. The Quarians discovered the planet, then went to the Citadel Council and petitioned to settle there - for Ekuna to be recognized as a Quarian world, and accepted into Council space. They filed the paperwork - only, by that point, a few hundred thousand Quarians were already settling the world.

Ekuna became Council space when the Quarians there recognized Council authority. So basically they got kicked out, by the Council, for petitioning the Council.

That I wasn't aware of. Where'd you read it?

Ekuna planet description, coupled with the Codex entry on Citadel Space. The planet is part of the Terminus Systems - Heretic Station is in the same cluster, which Legion says is in Terminus space. According to its description, the only party that approached the Council about Ekuna was the Quarians themselves.

On Council Space (secondary codex entry):

Citadel space is an unofficial term referring to any region of space controlled by a species that acknowledge the authority of the Citadel Council. At first glance, it appears this territory encompasses most of the galaxy. In reality, however, less than 1% of the stars have been explored.

Even mass-effect-FTL drive is slow relative to the volume of the galaxy. Empty space and systems without suitable drive discharge sites are barriers to exploration. Only the mass relays allow ships to jump hundreds of light years in an instant, the key to expanding across an otherwise impassable galaxy.

Whenever a new relay is activated, the destination system is rapidly developed. From that hub, FTL drive is used to expand to nearby star clusters. The result is a number of densely-developed clusters thinly spread across the vast expanse of space, connected by the mass relay network.

On Ekuna:

First discovered by the quarians at the turn of the century, Ekuna is habitable but a second-tier choice for most species. Circling an orange sun, Ekuna averages below freezing temperatures. This led development firms to colonize at the planet's equator, where the climate is tolerable for agriculture. The quarians, seeking a homeworld of their own, petitioned the Citadel Council for the right to take over Ekuna, but they had already settled a few hundred thousand quarians on the planet before approaching the Council. Seeing this occupation as an illegal act, the Council turned a deaf ear to quarian pleas and gave the world to the elcor, who could withstand the high gravity of the world far better. The quarians squatting on the planet were given one galactic standard month to leave, at which point their colonies would be bombarded.

Ekuna became part of Council space when the Quarians there chose to recognize Council authority. The Council then used that authority to drive them off of the planet.