276 réponses à ce sujet

[CosmicGnosis]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Descartes was a very intelligent philosopher and a roman catholic believer, believe it or not, and his famous statement has a lot deeper philosophical value and a deeper meaning to it than how people use it nowadays to prove something with it. There's more to it. We take it for face value as everything else nowadays. 

I understand you. But to me life (in the philosophical meaning of the word) is a lot more than mere biological existence and the capability to mimick thoughts or being capable of thinking (even Descartes knew that). Also the existence of AIs are hypothetical ... they are non-existent. So Descartes only spoke about human beings, the only known born being which is capable of thinking. So this quote is quite out of premise if we try to take it out of its context. Even we know no AIs, but judging by their theoretical human created nature, they are not living beings, only replicas at best.

So I do understand and accept what Descartes say, but I also know (even he knew) that it is not a definition of life, only an approximation of the recognition of human existence. Just like Saint Thomas Aquinas' quote of "I believe, therefore I am.". It is also taken out of context and taken literally assuming that it has no deeper thought put into it, but only demonstrates the usual blind religious way of thinking of the medieval era (while Thomas Aquinas was one of the greatest philosophers of our European culture even taken seriously by non-believer philosophers). 

Anyway... don't take me for a stupid bigot please. I'm no materialist or atheist, I'm no modern liberalist either, but I have a faint idea about life, death and people myself, being a medical doctor in Central-Europe.

The altered Descartes quote was simply intended to show that you place greater value on the capability of emotion than the capability of thought. Honestly, I think the original "think" version is loaded with assumptions that lack evidence, but I don't want to dwell on that.

I think our differences here pretty much originate from our religious beliefs. I'm an atheist, so that's how I view existence. You're a Christian, so you have that particular perspective. I don't think you're a bigot because, like you said, we don't have any actual experience with real artificial intelligence. So frankly, it's not something we have to consider right now. But in the context of the ME universe, there are artificial intelligences, and the games allow you to form your own opinions about them. I choose to accept them as people.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:34 .

[BleedingUranium]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Regardless of anyone's real life views, or whether real AI could ever be life, in the Mass Effect universe they are as much life as magic exists in the Lord of the Rings universe.

Thanks for the "gospel" statement, but I'd rather take it as your individual opinion. And last I checked, the ME games pretty much leave lots of space for an open interpretation of the question (that's one of the main themes of the series, especially ME3 and it's up to you to decide wether you consider them being alive or not). So, no, I don't see it being written in stone anywhere. 

Oh, and thanks again for suggesting me being a racist in my last post. It was very kind and intelligent of you, really. 

ME lets you decide what Shepard believes, but you cannot change that what I said is true.

That's because it was a racist statement.

[GimmeDaGun]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Descartes was a very intelligent philosopher and a roman catholic believer, believe it or not, and his famous statement has a lot deeper philosophical value and a deeper meaning to it than how people use it nowadays to prove something with it. There's more to it. We take it for face value as everything else nowadays. 

I understand you. But to me life (in the philosophical meaning of the word) is a lot more than mere biological existence and the capability to mimick thoughts or being capable of thinking (even Descartes knew that). Also the existence of AIs are hypothetical ... they are non-existent. So Descartes only spoke about human beings, the only known born being which is capable of thinking. So this quote is quite out of premise if we try to take it out of its context. Even we know no AIs, but judging by their theoretical human created nature, they are not living beings, only replicas at best.

So I do understand and accept what Descartes say, but I also know (even he knew) that it is not a definition of life, only an approximation of the recognition of human existence. Just like Saint Thomas Aquinas' quote of "I believe, therefore I am.". It is also taken out of context and taken literally assuming that it has no deeper thought put into it, but only demonstrates the usual blind religious way of thinking of the medieval era (while Thomas Aquinas was one of the greatest philosophers of our European culture even taken seriously by non-believer philosophers). 

Anyway... don't take me for a stupid bigot please. I'm no materialist or atheist, I'm no modern liberalist either, but I have a faint idea about life, death and people myself, being a medical doctor in Central-Europe.

The altered Descartes quote was simply intended to show that you place greater value on the capability of emotion than the capability of thought. Honestly, I think the original "think" version is loaded with assumptions that lack evidence, but I don't want to dwell on that.

I think our differences here pretty much originate from our religious beliefs. I'm an atheist, so that's how I view existence. You're a Christian, so you have that particular perspective. I don't think you're a bigot because, like you said, we don't have any actual experience with real artificial intelligences. So frankly, it's not something we have to consider right now. But in the context of the ME universe, there are artificial intelligences, and the games allow you to form your own opinions about them. I choose to accept them as people.

Fair enough. I choose to think that they are not alive for my own reasons and beliefs. We both have the right to do so, also the right to write it here without being accused of being something that we are not (like I was suggested being a racist). So lets agree to disagree.  It would be a pleasure to discuss Descartes, but I think the others won't enjoy the conversation so much as we would, so lets just drop it for now.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:46 .

[GimmeDaGun]

BleedingUranium wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Regardless of anyone's real life views, or whether real AI could ever be life, in the Mass Effect universe they are as much life as magic exists in the Lord of the Rings universe.

Thanks for the "gospel" statement, but I'd rather take it as your individual opinion. And last I checked, the ME games pretty much leave lots of space for an open interpretation of the question (that's one of the main themes of the series, especially ME3 and it's up to you to decide wether you consider them being alive or not). So, no, I don't see it being written in stone anywhere. 

Oh, and thanks again for suggesting me being a racist in my last post. It was very kind and intelligent of you, really. 

ME lets you decide what Shepard believes, but you cannot change that what I said is true.

That's because it was a racist statement.

Huhhh?  ...Ok...:lol::lol::lol::lol:


I hope you realise that I could easily report your post for false accusation and "hate speech"... don't worry I won't (Inb4 you try to threaten me to do the same with my post which you consider being racist: you're welcome to try ). But from this point on I can't take what you write seriously. From my part this conversation is over.  

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:44 .

[Sweawm]

I previously liked the Geth, but really, now that the Trilogy is long behind me, looking back on it, I kind of hate the Geth now. Whenever it seems like the Geth have done wrong, the 'Creator's fault' and 'Reaper influence' cards gets played.

Nothing, not even their sub-par intelligence excuses anything. And truly, the Geth have no right to Rannoch, and the Quarians have good reason to hate them. The Geth are the problem to begin with.

[BleedingUranium]

It would only be false accusation if I didn't believe what I was saying, and if the Geth were not fictional what you said would be considered hate speech.

[GimmeDaGun]

pirate1802 wrote...

Plants have none of those things too. hell many living beings don't have them. Guess they are not alive.

If you use "alive" as philosophical term, then not, they are not alive, if you use it in its biological meaning, then they are. 

[BleedingUranium]

Sweawm wrote...

I previously liked the Geth, but really, now that the Trilogy is long behind me, looking back on it, I kind of hate the Geth now. Whenever it seems like the Geth have done wrong, the 'Creator's fault' and 'Reaper influence' cards gets played.

Nothing, not even their sub-par intelligence excuses anything. And truly, the Geth have no right to Rannoch, and the Quarians have good reason to hate them. The Geth are the problem to begin with.

So you'd blame a baby for eating a deliberately poisoned candy?

And the Geth have equal rights to Rannoch, it's their world just as much as it's the Quarians'.

[Indy_S]

Sweawm wrote...

I previously liked the Geth, but really, now that the Trilogy is long behind me, looking back on it, I kind of hate the Geth now. Whenever it seems like the Geth have done wrong, the 'Creator's fault' and 'Reaper influence' cards gets played.

Nothing, not even their sub-par intelligence excuses anything. And truly, the Geth have no right to Rannoch, and the Quarians have good reason to hate them. The Geth are the problem to begin with.

Interesting. The fact that they're entirely blameless passed me by entirely. You're right, they're not responsible for anything they have ever done. That's... wow. Retrospectively, the writers kinda kept hammering that in, didn't they? If the Geth took some initiative, the conflict present in the third game wouldn't even have been necessary.

[BleedingUranium]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Plants have none of those things too. hell many living beings don't have them. Guess they are not alive.

If you use "alive" as philosophical term, then not, they are not alive, if you use it in its biological meaning, then they are.

The terms alive tends to cause confusion with the Geth, "alive" as philosophical term basically means "person", which the Geth are, even if they are not biologically alive.

Are the Geth "alive" (biologically)? No. Are they people? Yes.

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

And the Geth have equal rights to Rannoch, it's their world just as much as it's the Quarians'.

But they've got no attachment to it. They're supposedly incapable of it. And since they're so interested in organic behaviour, it wouldn't even surprise them that the Quarians want Rannoch back. They intentionally put themselves in the way, ensuring conflict, and then turn to the Reapers to fight for real estate they don't even want.

[GimmeDaGun]

BleedingUranium wrote...

It would only be false accusation if I didn't believe what I was saying, and if the Geth were not fictional what you said would be considered hate speech.

On a last note: yeah, and if I had a steering wheel and engine and four wheels, I would be a car...if...if...if..if. If the geth were alive, it would cause a lot bigger stir and a huge argument about the true nature of AIs. Now we have the comfortable position of talking about it while we know that it's all theoretical, a product of fiction ("just a game") and has no real stake. Probably if they were "real" I wouldn't consider them being alive either. Most probably not. Sorry. Call me whatever you will for this, but it will not make me a racist, nor you accepting them being alive a saint. So keep thinking I'm a racist and that I would eat african or asian children for breakfast, since I wouldn't consider them being alive. So long.

[Sweawm]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Sweawm wrote...

I previously liked the Geth, but really, now that the Trilogy is long behind me, looking back on it, I kind of hate the Geth now. Whenever it seems like the Geth have done wrong, the 'Creator's fault' and 'Reaper influence' cards gets played.

Nothing, not even their sub-par intelligence excuses anything. And truly, the Geth have no right to Rannoch, and the Quarians have good reason to hate them. The Geth are the problem to begin with.

So you'd blame a baby for eating a deliberately poisoned candy?

And the Geth have equal rights to Rannoch, it's their world just as much as it's the Quarians'.

The Geth don't need Rannoch, and by Legion in ME2, they don't really want it either. If the Geth truly followed logic, they would relocate to somewhere organics won't bother them while they quest for better intelligence/processing. They don't even see the planet as home. They simply kept Rannoch to deny it from their creators, who will die out without it. 
The Geth slaughtered billions of innocents, but suddenly think 'this is not justice' when it swings the other way, when they will be punished for the crimes they are directly responsible for. 

[CosmicGnosis]

Sweawm wrote...

I previously liked the Geth, but really, now that the Trilogy is long behind me, looking back on it, I kind of hate the Geth now. Whenever it seems like the Geth have done wrong, the 'Creator's fault' and 'Reaper influence' cards gets played.

Nothing, not even their sub-par intelligence excuses anything. And truly, the Geth have no right to Rannoch, and the Quarians have good reason to hate them. The Geth are the problem to begin with.

Makes Destroy a lot easier, doesn't it? No moral quandaries, no second-guessing, no guilt. Completely blameless.

Edit: Sorry for coming off as a snob. I just can't take Destroy lightly.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:09 .

[GimmeDaGun]

BleedingUranium wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Plants have none of those things too. hell many living beings don't have them. Guess they are not alive.

If you use "alive" as philosophical term, then not, they are not alive, if you use it in its biological meaning, then they are.

The terms alive tends to cause confusion with the Geth, "alive" as philosophical term basically means "person", which the Geth are, even if they are not biologically alive.

Are the Geth "alive" (biologically)? No. Are they people? Yes.

To you they are, to me they aren't. I've already written why I think this way. You're welcome to disagree with me, you're not welcome to press your opinion on me. 

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

And the Geth have equal rights to Rannoch, it's their world just as much as it's the Quarians'.

But they've got no attachment to it. They're supposedly incapable of it. And since they're so interested in organic behaviour, it wouldn't even surprise them that the Quarians want Rannoch back. They intentionally put themselves in the way, ensuring conflict, and then turn to the Reapers to fight for real estate they don't even want.

Do you remember Legion's talk about why Rannoch is not home, the fleet is?

Also, every single Quarian that ever lived on Rannoch is dead, while the Geth are immortal, thus the modern Quarians have no legitimate claim to the planet.

[Wolfva2]

klarabella wrote...

I wonder why they created this contrived situation that forced the geth to accept Reaper tech and abandon the one thing that made them unique and alien among the mostly very un-alien aliens of ME in order to become individuals, right after freeing the geth from Reaper influence and with a heavy helping of stupid/evil Quarians on top.

Contrived?  All along the Quarians had planned to take back Ranoch and destroy the Geth entirely.  Remember, they created the Geth to be servants.  When Geth acquired sentience, they became scared of the Geth and decided to destroy them completely.  Not all Quarians agreed, and tried to save their Geth friends.  I recall one 'memory' of the first Geth to fight back, who watched while the farmer who sheltered him was lynched by other Quarians for trying to protect him.  It was then the Geth realized they would be erradicated completely unless they fought back, and they did so.  Once they chased the Quarians from Ranoch, they stopped pursuit.  Ranoch was their planet, the place they were safe at.  

After Legion and Shepard freed the heretics (if you made that decision) they lived in peace.  But it was the Quarians who attacked them that forced them to make a decision.  Either face anhilation or accept the Reaper code to make them stronger.  They decided it was better to exist as slaves then die out completely.  Had the Quarians not taken this long planned action the Geth would have remained free of Reaper influence.  Remember that the Quarians had been planning this action for a long time.  In ME2, Tali's father was working on weapons for the push to Ranoch, as was Xen.  His admiral friend was pushing the other admirals to fight, and the only one who truly wanted peace was the hippy that tried to bust Tali for political means.

Anyways, someone is about to kill you and your family.  An enemy comes up and says, "Hey!  I'll give you the tools you need to keep your family safe, but you have to swear obiesance to me first!"  what are you going to do?  The Geth decided to swear obiesance.

[Sweawm]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

And the Geth have equal rights to Rannoch, it's their world just as much as it's the Quarians'.

But they've got no attachment to it. They're supposedly incapable of it. And since they're so interested in organic behaviour, it wouldn't even surprise them that the Quarians want Rannoch back. They intentionally put themselves in the way, ensuring conflict, and then turn to the Reapers to fight for real estate they don't even want.

Do you remember Legion's talk about why Rannoch is not home, the fleet is?

Also, every single Quarian that ever lived on Rannoch is dead, while the Geth are immortal, thus the modern Quarians have no legitimate claim to the planet.

They absloutely don't. They murdered the original inhabitants and simply occuiped it. It actually rightfully belongs to the descendents, not the Geth, who are pretty much foreign to Rannoch, and have much a legitmate hold to the planet as much as invaders have to stolen land. 

PS: and as matter of fact: of the lesser evils I picked, I chose Control. Biotic God can sleep now, destroy Reaper dictatorship later...

Modifié par Sweawm, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:15 .

[nos_astra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Edit: Sorry for coming off as a snob. I just can't take Destroy lightly.

Why? The repercussions don't really arise naturally from that choice and seem tacked on.

Does Reaper code have some sort of signature? Assume they'd just been turned off during the the Red Light of Doom, would they have survived then? They should.

If the Citadel and the relays (who are also Reaper tech) can be repaired, why not EDI or the geth?

You should take this lightly because it's not a complex moral issue. It's just nonsense in a video game.

[BleedingUranium]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Had the Quarians not taken this long planned action the Geth would have remained free of Reaper influence.

Yep, it's the Quarians' fault again, even if indirectly this time.

[nos_astra]

Wolfva2 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

I wonder why they created this contrived situation that forced the geth to accept Reaper tech and abandon the one thing that made them unique and alien among the mostly very un-alien aliens of ME in order to become individuals, right after freeing the geth from Reaper influence and with a heavy helping of stupid/evil Quarians on top.

Contrived?  All along the Quarians had planned to take back Ranoch and destroy the Geth entirely.  ...

Contrived. All along? At what point during ME1 did you get the impression that the quarians where even close to challenging the geth over Rannoch? Or ME2?

There's a lot of WTFery going on from the geth insisting on building their super structure somewhere where organics might want to live, to the quarians insisting on going mostly retard at a very unfortunate time, to Shepard instisting on being as useless as humanly possible just so we can have Legion dissolve his own consciousness and trusting Reaper code right after freeing the geth from indoctrination but not before he can say the six little words that are supposed to make us feel all warm: Does this unit have a soul? 

And why? Maybe because the now much less alien geth with their signs of attachment and new-found individuality can be held hostage by the Catalyst/Crucible's DESTROY option.

Modifié par klarabella, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:29 .

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

And the Geth have equal rights to Rannoch, it's their world just as much as it's the Quarians'.

But they've got no attachment to it. They're supposedly incapable of it. And since they're so interested in organic behaviour, it wouldn't even surprise them that the Quarians want Rannoch back. They intentionally put themselves in the way, ensuring conflict, and then turn to the Reapers to fight for real estate they don't even want.

Do you remember Legion's talk about why Rannoch is not home, the fleet is?

Also, every single Quarian that ever lived on Rannoch is dead, while the Geth are immortal, thus the modern Quarians have no legitimate claim to the planet.

The Geth are aware that the Quarians have emotions. They're aware that organic species prefer their original and cultural homes. And if they've been monitoring the extranet, they're aware that the quarians intend to retake their homeworld one day. The Geth do not have emotions, do not have preferences regarding location. They could easily remove themselves from the warpath. Legitimate claim or not, they're aware the Quarians want to come back.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

And the Geth have equal rights to Rannoch, it's their world just as much as it's the Quarians'.

But they've got no attachment to it. They're supposedly incapable of it. And since they're so interested in organic behaviour, it wouldn't even surprise them that the Quarians want Rannoch back. They intentionally put themselves in the way, ensuring conflict, and then turn to the Reapers to fight for real estate they don't even want.

Do you remember Legion's talk about why Rannoch is not home, the fleet is?

Also, every single Quarian that ever lived on Rannoch is dead, while the Geth are immortal, thus the modern Quarians have no legitimate claim to the planet.

The Geth are aware that the Quarians have emotions. They're aware that organic species prefer their original and cultural homes. And if they've been monitoring the extranet, they're aware that the quarians intend to retake their homeworld one day. The Geth do not have emotions, do not have preferences regarding location. They could easily remove themselves from the warpath. Legitimate claim or not, they're aware the Quarians want to come back.

You're missing the point, that doesn't make the Quarians' claim legitimate.

[Sweawm]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Had the Quarians not taken this long planned action the Geth would have remained free of Reaper influence.

Yep, it's the Quarians' fault again, even if indirectly this time.

It's actually the Geth's fault, again, despite the best white-washing efforts. As far as the Quarians knew, the Geth were sided with the Reapers to begin with, as shown by the Battle at the Citadel, where they aided a Reaper Dreadnought. NEVER, did the Geth let it be made known that a majority of them do not support the Reapers. The entire galaxy assumed that the Geth were sided with the Reapers, as the Geth Heretics had shown years earlier.

Never did the Quarian's plans seem illogical, or stupid. As far as they knew, destroying the Geth would help the galaxy as a whole and be a defeat for the Reapers.

[Indy_S]

klarabella wrote...

Contrived. All along? At what point during ME1 did you get the impression that the Quarians where even close to challenging the geth over Rannoch? Or ME2?

There's a lot of WTFery going on from the geth insisting on building their super structure somewhere where organics might want to live, to the Quarians insisting on going full retard at a very unfortuante time, to Shepard instisting on being as useless as humanly possible just so we can have Legion dissolve his own consciousness and trusting Reaper code right after freeing the geth from indoctrination but not before he can say the six little words that are supposed to make us feel all warm: Does this unit have a soul? 

And why? Maybe because the now much less alien geth with their signs of attachment and new-found individuality can be held hostage by the Catalyst/Crucible's DESTROY option.

I'm going to agree it was contrived, the reasons for both sides being present are iffy. However, it was brought up as far back as ME1. Tali claimed she wanted to walk on her homeworld one day. In ME2, a lot of the admirals are foaming at the mouth to get into a fight, and I personally don't think Space Jesus' paragon option would really deter them.

And while I think the actions and reactions in the Rannoch story arc are stupid, I still enjoy the plot. Even Space Robot Jesus and the Hammer of Dawn.