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[BleedingUranium]

Sweawm wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Had the Quarians not taken this long planned action the Geth would have remained free of Reaper influence.

Yep, it's the Quarians' fault again, even if indirectly this time.

It's actually the Geth's fault, again, despite the best white-washing efforts. As far as the Quarians knew, the Geth were sided with the Reapers to begin with, as shown by the Battle at the Citadel, where they aided a Reaper Dreadnought. NEVER, did the Geth let it be made known that a majority of them do not support the Reapers. The entire galaxy assumed that the Geth were sided with the Reapers, as the Geth Heretics had shown years earlier.

Never did the Quarian's plans seem illogical, or stupid. As far as they knew, destroying the Geth would help the galaxy as a whole and be a defeat for the Reapers.

Except for that time Shepard told them in ME2. And Legion, if you brought him, as I always do. So in my playthough at least, they were fully aware, and still didn't care. They even say to your face that they don't care.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:36 .

[Indy_S]

Sweawm wrote...

Never did the Quarian's plans seem illogical, or stupid. As far as they knew, destroying the Geth would help the galaxy as a whole and be a defeat for the Reapers.

If they didn't say it was to avoid Citadel sanctions, I would agree with you on this point.

[DirtyPhoenix]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Regardless of anyone's real life views, or whether real AI could ever be life, in the Mass Effect universe they are as much life as magic exists in the Lord of the Rings universe.

Thanks for the "gospel" statement, but I'd rather take it as your individual opinion. And last I checked, the ME games pretty much leave lots of space for an open interpretation of the question (that's one of the main themes of the series, especially ME3 and it's up to you to decide wether you consider them being alive or not). So, no, I don't see it being written in stone anywhere.  Oh, and thanks again for suggesting me being a racist in my last post. It was very kind and intelligent of you, really. 

Even if I don't agree with your view, I agree with the boilded parts.

GimmeDaGun wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Plants have none of those things too. hell many living beings don't have them. Guess they are not alive.

If you use "alive" as philosophical term, then not, they are not alive, if you use it in its biological meaning, then they are.

yeah, I realized that after typing my comment. That there are more than one fixed definition of "alive". I guess thats the part where we differ. I tend to go for the technical view, because philosophically, it can mean different things to different people. I view ME synthetics (Geth, EDI.. not the VIs) as much alive as us, because leaving aside all the spiritual umbo jumbo, we ourselves are machines made of flesh with complex chemical reactions that simulate emotions. The only difference between us and them is the level of complexity. In principle we're the same. Maybe one day the Geth will develop complex enough ental routines to simulate organic emotions, if they desire so. They did afterall evolve from simpler VIs. In My Opinion™ ofcourse..

Modifié par pirate1802, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:46 .

[Sweawm]

To make a more powerful statement in this moral debate, I want the foresight thrown away for a second for you to indulge in a little perspective point of view to better explore the Quarian perspective.

Say I killed your parents, stole your family's fortune, and you've been wallowing in poverty ever since. Nobody is going to help you, and you are constantly pinned as at fault for this. Now, I'm going to use what I stole from your ancestors as a bargaining chip in later negotiations for you to absolve me of all crimes, when maybe, at some distant point in the future, I feel like that and returning what is actually rightfully yours (only maybe perhaps keeping some of it for myself in the progress as well)

Do you feel it is in your right to challenge this? If not, I don't think you've thought about it that much.

[BleedingUranium]

Sweawm wrote...

To make a more powerful statement in this moral debate, I want the foresight thrown away for a second for you to indulge in a little perspective point of view to better explore the Quarian perspective.

Say I killed your parents, stole your family's fortune, and you've been wallowing in poverty ever since. Nobody is going to help you, and you are constantly pinned as at fault for this. Now, I'm going to use what I stole from your ancestors as a bargaining chip in later negotiations for you to absolve me of all crimes, when maybe, at some distant point in the future, I feel like that and returning what is actually rightfully yours (only maybe perhaps keeping some of it for myself in the progress as well)

Do you feel it is in your right to challenge this? If not, I don't think you've thought about it that much.

Except that's not at all a comparison to this.

[Indy_S]

Sweawm wrote...

Say I killed your parents, stole your family's fortune, and you've been wallowing in poverty ever since. Nobody is going to help you, and you are constantly pinned as at fault for this. Now, I'm going to use what I stole from your ancestors as a bargaining chip in later negotiations for you to absolve me of all crimes, when maybe, at some distant point in the future, I feel like that and returning what is actually rightfully yours (only maybe perhaps keeping some of it for myself in the progress as well)

That's it, I'm coming for you Sweawm. And I'm not gonna stop until you give me back everything you've taken! 

As for the philosophical discussion regarding the Geth's status as 'alive', I don't really see a connection to the OP's statement.

[nos_astra]

Indy_S wrote...

 attachment and new-found individuality can be held hostage by the Catalyst/Crucible's DESTROY option.

I'm going to agree it was contrived, the reasons for both sides being present are iffy. However, it was brought up as far back as ME1. Tali claimed she wanted to walk on her homeworld one day. In ME2, a lot of the admirals are foaming at the mouth to get into a fight, and I personally don't think Space Jesus' paragon option would really deter them.

And while I think the actions and reactions in the Rannoch story arc are stupid, I still enjoy the plot. Even Space Robot Jesus and the Hammer of Dawn.

I think ME1 and 2 established fairly well that the quarians weren't a threat to anyone. The moment they attack they a) leave the civilian ships defenseless or drag them into the fight. Going into a fight for the quarians means all or nothing.

Characterization of the entire quarian species as morons aside, the only reason they were a threat for the geth is because the geth somehow thought this super structure that would be their home for something thats sounds suspiciously like eternity and possibly never again move from that spot should be located ON RANNOCH. Seriously!?

Modifié par klarabella, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:55 .

[aTrueFool]

klarabella wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

 attachment and new-found individuality can be held hostage by the Catalyst/Crucible's DESTROY option.

I'm going to agree it was contrived, the reasons for both sides being present are iffy. However, it was brought up as far back as ME1. Tali claimed she wanted to walk on her homeworld one day. In ME2, a lot of the admirals are foaming at the mouth to get into a fight, and I personally don't think Space Jesus' paragon option would really deter them.

And while I think the actions and reactions in the Rannoch story arc are stupid, I still enjoy the plot. Even Space Robot Jesus and the Hammer of Dawn.

I think ME1 and 2 established fairly well that the quarians weren't a threat to anyone. The moment they attack they a) leave the civilian ships defenseless or drag them into the fight. Going into a fight for the quarians means all or nothing.

Characterization of the entire quarian species as morons aside, the only reason they were a threat for the geth is because the geth somehow thought this super structure that would be their home for something thats sounds suspiciously like eternity and possibly never again move from that spot should be located ON RANNOCH. Seriously!?

It wasn't on Rannoch, it was just in the same system.

[CosmicGnosis]

klarabella wrote...

Characterization of the entire quarian species as morons aside, the only reason they were a threat for the geth is because the geth somehow thought this super structure that would be their home for something thats sounds suspiciously like eternity and possibly never again move from that spot should be located ON RANNOCH. Seriously!?

Uh... I think the Dyson swarm was near Rannoch's sun...

[Indy_S]

klarabella wrote...

I think ME1 and 2 established fairly well that the quarians weren't a threat to anyone. The moment they attack they a) leave the civilian ships defenseless or drag them into the fight. Going into a fight for the quarians means all or nothing.

I agree they're idiots for it, but the admirals are popular for at least trying. Morale can turn suicidal charges into actually effective strikes. Still idiots.

[Wolfva2]

They absloutely don't. They murdered the original inhabitants and simply occuiped it. It actually rightfully belongs to the descendents, not the Geth, who are pretty much foreign to Rannoch, and have much a legitmate hold to the planet as much as invaders have to stolen land.

Errr...murder would mean they went all Skynet/Terminator on them.  They didn't.  They were defending themselves against complete and utter anhilation by the Quarians who were killing THEIR OWN PEOPLE who tried to defend the Quarian.

Contrived. All along? At what point during ME1 did you get
the impression that the quarians where even close to challenging the
geth over Rannoch? Or ME2?

Errr, various conversations with Talia about them one day going to retake Ranoch.  In ME2, the whole trial which was staged by the hippy Quarian in an attempt to forestall the more aggressive admirals from continuing their attempts to retake the home world.  Out of curiosity, did you play with narative off?

[nos_astra]

Wolfva2 wrote...

They absloutely don't. They murdered the original inhabitants and simply occuiped it. It actually rightfully belongs to the descendents, not the Geth, who are pretty much foreign to Rannoch, and have much a legitmate hold to the planet as much as invaders have to stolen land.

Errr...murder would mean they went all Skynet/Terminator on them.  They didn't.  They were defending themselves against complete and utter anhilation by the Quarians who were killing THEIR OWN PEOPLE who tried to defend the Quarian.

They almost did.
Skynet defended itself.
The geth defended itself.

The difference:
The geth were a lot more effective and removed most of the quarian population from the gene pool quite quickly.
The quarians had the option to leave on starships and were given the opportunity, while Skynet and humanity were trapped on the same planet.

[CosmicGnosis]

You know, even if the story seems to want us to sympathize with the geth, if you actually side with them on Rannoch, the result feels a lot more tragic.

The Vigil music doesn't play like in the peace and quarian results, and the entire crew (EDI is the exception) is pretty down about it. It almost feels like you chose the wrong side. The right choice is not always the most popular one?

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:16 .

[nos_astra]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Contrived. All along? At what point during ME1 did you get
the impression that the quarians where even close to challenging the
geth over Rannoch? Or ME2?

Errr, various conversations with Talia about them one day going to retake Ranoch.  In ME2, the whole trial which was staged by the hippy Quarian in an attempt to forestall the more aggressive admirals from continuing their attempts to retake the home world.  Out of curiosity, did you play with narative off?

Maybe you don't quite understand my point.

Were the geth even close to challening the geth? I mean as in really, actually capable of starting a fight and posing a serious threat to them any time soon without the geth building themselves a giant kick me here-sign near Rannoch.

Modifié par klarabella, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:25 .

[Indy_S]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

You know, even if the story seems to want us to sympathize with the geth, if you actually side with them on Rannoch, the result feels a lot more tragic.

The Vigil music doesn't play like in the peace and quarian results, and the entire crew (EDI is the exception) is pretty down about it. It almost feels like you chose the wrong side.

It doesn't help that Legion and his replacement fight for their beliefs while Tali and the other admiral just straight up commit suicide. Very different takes on their respective genocide.

[nos_astra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Characterization of the entire quarian species as morons aside, the only reason they were a threat for the geth is because the geth somehow thought this super structure that would be their home for something thats sounds suspiciously like eternity and possibly never again move from that spot should be located ON RANNOCH. Seriously!?

Uh... I think the Dyson swarm was near Rannoch's sun.

 Ok, that would be not quite as short-sighted as I assumed. Still, they could have done this anywhere, why in the Rannoch system at all?

And were they able to move and somehow it didn't?  

[nos_astra]

aTrueFool wrote...
It wasn't on Rannoch, it was just in the same system.

Ok. Better, but still far from a smart decision. They could have done this anywhere.

[CosmicGnosis]

From what I understand, the geth's dyson swarm was still under construction, but many geth had already been uploaded into it. The quarians attacked the unfinished dyson swarm, basically killing a large number of geth, although I don't know how many. This greatly contributed to the widespread IQ drop of the geth.

I don't know why they were building it in Rannoch's system. Maybe because they had immediate access to resources, and simply didn't feel threatened?

[aTrueFool]

klarabella wrote...

aTrueFool wrote...
It wasn't on Rannoch, it was just in the same system.

Ok. Better, but still far from a smart decision. They could have done this anywhere.

Maybe for the same reason the Quarians want Rannoch back, because it's their home?

[Indy_S]

I don't buy that because the robots are not supposed to be attached to it as such. I thought that was the difference with the robots, emotions. On the other hand, the alternative is laziness. Unless the Word of God comes and decides the issue, everything is headcanon about why they built a dyson swarm in the Rannoch system.

[nos_astra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

From what I understand, the geth's dyson swarm was still under construction, but many geth had already been uploaded into it. The quarians attacked the unfinished dyson swarm, basically killing a large number of geth, although I don't know how many. This greatly contributed to the widespread IQ drop of the geth.

I don't know why they were building it in Rannoch's system. Maybe because they had immediate access to resources, and simply didn't feel threatened?

But they built the structure to become more intelligent and when they lost it ... did they become as intelligent as before or less intelligent. Because as before is certainly not a reason to go for a Reaper upgrade.

Legion himself was only a consensus of between 1k and 1.5k runtimes, removed from the rest of the geth consensus. He didn't seem that dumb to me.

Did they also lose intelligence when the heretic geth split off? And that didn't bother them?

Modifié par klarabella, 16 janvier 2013 - 12:06 .

[BleedingUranium]

The Geth have clearly had emotion and attachment from before Shepard even met Legion.

[Zardoc]

BleedingUranium wrote...

And Legion never abandoned anything.

ME2: "Shepard-Commander, we want to build our own future without the Reaper's help"
ME3: "OMG REAPER TECH GIMME GIMME GIMME I WANNA BE A REAL BOY"


Mhm.

[nos_astra]

aTrueFool wrote...
Maybe for the same reason the Quarians want Rannoch back, because it's their home?

In a universe where the geth's major concern seems to be finding out about their individual souls (even though they aren't individuals) I wouldn't put them above this.

But like I'm critical of the quarians' display of a RAAAAAWR RAAAAWR KILL attitude that sounds ridiculous for a civilization of poor, outcast nomands I'm not fond of the humanizing of the geth to make them more relatable so I can pity the poor little things properly. 

Modifié par klarabella, 16 janvier 2013 - 12:04 .

[nos_astra]

BleedingUranium wrote...
The Geth have clearly had emotion and attachment from before Shepard even met Legion.

Yeah, not one of the stronger points in their characterization.

I get that they should follow rules and value certain things ... but this emotional crap is just weird.