276 réponses à ce sujet

[nevar00]

Ehhhh... sounds like a bit of an excuse to me.  In all honesty I think they just did a 180 with the writing at that part so they could have the emotional moments of geth and Legion wondering if they have souls.  Even reaper alliance aside Legion was perfectly happy in ME 2 with geth being geth, at that time they didn't care about souls or being with everyone else.

[shodiswe]

JadeShepard wrote...

What's a Dyson Swarm?

It was pretty mcuh a series of unarmed Geth spacestations with massive solarpower collectors that powered Geth servers where geth who wern't residing in geth "bodies" or mobile platforms as the Geth calls it, were residing.

I guess you could say that the Geth civilians lives there, the office clerks the R&D people, the people who wern't working on mining operations or soldiers protecting the miners or engineers performing maintenance.

It was probably more cost efficient to maintain a population in servers than giving them all mobile platforms. That way they were able to support a population of billions instead of millions to evolve the geth culture, science and social development. However at the same time those Geth would see the world from the perspective of a stationary AI living entierly in an artificial environment. I don't think the Quarrians put them in servers at the beginning since the Geth were designed to be Worker robots, not brainfarms.

So in a way, the things that happend in ME3 with most of those servers being destroyed changed the Geth, and it's prboably easier for Geth with a platform, like Legion to get to know and cooperate with organics than server based Geth who would have next to no interaction with organic life and for whom the concept would seem like an academic theoretic question... Does the outside world really exist?

[l DryIce l]

 The Geth don't feel fear. They don't suffer and they don't experience emotion. Thus, they lack a critical perspective when it comes to interacting with organics. This is what lead to the Morning War. I certainly don't blame the Geth for reacting like that, in the same way that I don't blame a computer for malfunctioning. It doesn't know any better. 

However, I think anything capable of this level of merciless destruction is a threat that needs to be stopped. I feel as if the Geth had been a human creation, there would much more people siding against them; I think some people just haven't tried to empathize with the Quarians.

The Geth are too unpredictable. They are definitely incredibly advanced beings, but I don't believe they are sentient, and the fact that they are incapable of suffering makes the decision to destroy them (or even understanding Admiral Xen's point of view) that much easier. 

Not trying to provoke anyone. I know the majority of people side with the Geth, but I'm just not convinced we should care for them simply because they have the illusion of actual intelligence or because we decide to anthropomorphize them. 

[shodiswe]

nevar00 wrote...

Ehhhh... sounds like a bit of an excuse to me.  In all honesty I think they just did a 180 with the writing at that part so they could have the emotional moments of geth and Legion wondering if they have souls.  Even reaper alliance aside Legion was perfectly happy in ME 2 with geth being geth, at that time they didn't care about souls or being with everyone else.

If you play a few missions with Legion, you have one conversation with Legion he will play up that soul searching playback in ME2.

Personaly im non-religious but for me it seems like an attempt to ask for validation as a person.



The Geth View on the morning war and Rannoch and the Geth / Quarrian hate..

Modifié par shodiswe, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:15 .

[Dark_Caduceus]

"Guys, we need ground enemies apart from Cerberus troops and Reaper ground forces."
"Okay, how about this: the geth ally themselves with the Reapers for some contrived reasons we'll come up with later, even though we already dealt with this issue extensively in Mass Effect 2."
"Sounds good. Lunch?"

[nevar00]

shodiswe wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Ehhhh... sounds like a bit of an excuse to me.  In all honesty I think they just did a 180 with the writing at that part so they could have the emotional moments of geth and Legion wondering if they have souls.  Even reaper alliance aside Legion was perfectly happy in ME 2 with geth being geth, at that time they didn't care about souls or being with everyone else.

If you play a few missions with Legion, you have one conversation with Legion he will play up that soul searching playback in ME2.

Personaly im non-religious but for me it seems like an atempt to ask for validation as a person.

That's in ME 2?  Huh.  Granted, I haven't played the game in a whle but I just remember him being perfectly fine with how the Geth were and never really seemed bothered about searching for belonging among the other species. 

[Belisarius25]

l DryIce l wrote...

Not trying to provoke anyone. I know the majority of people side with the Geth, but I'm just not convinced we should care for them simply because they have the illusion of actual intelligence or because we decide to anthropomorphize them. 

There's no way to know for sure, but I highly doubt most people side with the Geth. If there's a majority, I'd guess it's "peace between the Geth and Quarians" and I'd guess more people side with the Quarians than the Geth (because of Tali, because organic vs. synthetic, what have you).

That aside (shameless plug), for those debating how the geth were written during the Rannoch arc versus how they were earlier - I posted a link to some comments by Chris L'Etoile (Legion's writer in ME2) concerning the Geth - and EDI - and how he saw them progressing going forward. Technically it's a link to a link, I guess, but there's some interesting stuff from L'Etoile.

[Dunabar]

I don't know why but when I see the Geth, I only see dead innocent quarians (Some of which died at the hands of their own people im not ignoring that)

But when it comes to treatment of the Geth it seems like the path people want to take is...

Treat them like they're organics, a race of intelligenent individuals, and etc (Short: Treat them like a person or a living creature) But then when it comes to the absolute slaughter of the quarians people just go "Oh those were heretics, its okay they didn't know any better". It sickens me that the "Heretics" are played off like an escape card. People want to treat the geth as equals but then want to make up an excuse for them joining the reapers.

Its "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" not "The friend of my enemy is my friend."

Geth want equality and to be treated as living creatures? Okay, death to the Geth for joining the Reapers.

"But the Quarians!" - Never joined the Reaper cause when the galaxy treated them like second class citizens, treated them like they're beggers and thieves, treated them as if they were no more than bums floating around space without a world to call their own, and then the galaxy gets ticked off with the quarians when the quarians struggle just to survive. But when the galaxy is going belly up and the need for ships arises, whose got the most ships, and is willing to talk to aid in the cause? Quarians. Funny how those second class citizens suddenly seem wanted now that things are not going as intended by the other galactic races.

The short note is this - Don't put all blame on one race and ignore all the bad things the other has done. I get both sides have done bad things and I get they both didn't help each others cause when it comes to peace. But only one of these races willingly joined the reapers...

"The friend of my enemy is my enemy"

Modifié par Dunabar, 16 janvier 2013 - 06:17 .

[l DryIce l]

Dunabar wrote...

I don't know why but when I see the Geth, I only see dead innocent quarians (Some of which died at the hands of their own people im not ignoring that)

But when it comes to treatment of the Geth it seems like the path people want to take is...

Treat them like they're organics, a race of intelligenent individuals, and etc (Short: Treat them like a person or a living creature) But then when it comes to the absolute slaughter of the quarians people just go "Oh those were heretics, its okay they didn't know any better". It sickens me that the "Heretics" are played off like an escape card. People want to treat the geth as equals but then want to make up an excuse for them joining the reapers.

Its "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" not "The friend of my enemy is my friend."

Geth want equality and to be treated as living creatures? Okay, death to the Geth for joining the Reapers.

"But the Quarians!" - Never joined the Reaper cause when the galaxy treated them like second class citizens, treated them like they're beggers and thieves, treated them as if they were no more than bums floating around space without a world to call their own, and then the galaxy gets ticked off with the quarians when the quarians struggle just to survive. But when the galaxy is going belly up and the need for ships arises, whose got the most ships, and is willing to talk to aid in the cause? Quarians. Funny how those second class citizens suddenly seem wanted now that things are not going as intended by the other galactic races.

The short note is this - Don't put all blame on one race and ignore all the bad things the other has done. I get both sides have done bad things and I get they both didn't help each others cause when it comes to peace. But only one of these races willingly joined the reapers...

"The friend of my enemy is my enemy"

Well, the Geth didn't willingly join the Reapers, the Heretics did. Remember, the Geth "wanted" to self-determinate. However, to me, this illustrates another huge danger with the Geth. When an organic makes a bad decision, a potentially dangerous decision, that's bad, but we can deal with it relatively easy because it's just one person. When the Geth make a bad decision, you have who knows how many "platforms" simultaneously making that bad decision. To me, the way the Geth function spells inevitable disaster. 

[Dunabar]

l DryIce l wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

I don't know why but when I see the Geth, I only see dead innocent quarians (Some of which died at the hands of their own people im not ignoring that)

But when it comes to treatment of the Geth it seems like the path people want to take is...

Treat them like they're organics, a race of intelligenent individuals, and etc (Short: Treat them like a person or a living creature) But then when it comes to the absolute slaughter of the quarians people just go "Oh those were heretics, its okay they didn't know any better". It sickens me that the "Heretics" are played off like an escape card. People want to treat the geth as equals but then want to make up an excuse for them joining the reapers.

Its "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" not "The friend of my enemy is my friend."

Geth want equality and to be treated as living creatures? Okay, death to the Geth for joining the Reapers.

"But the Quarians!" - Never joined the Reaper cause when the galaxy treated them like second class citizens, treated them like they're beggers and thieves, treated them as if they were no more than bums floating around space without a world to call their own, and then the galaxy gets ticked off with the quarians when the quarians struggle just to survive. But when the galaxy is going belly up and the need for ships arises, whose got the most ships, and is willing to talk to aid in the cause? Quarians. Funny how those second class citizens suddenly seem wanted now that things are not going as intended by the other galactic races.

The short note is this - Don't put all blame on one race and ignore all the bad things the other has done. I get both sides have done bad things and I get they both didn't help each others cause when it comes to peace. But only one of these races willingly joined the reapers...

"The friend of my enemy is my enemy"

Well, the Geth didn't willingly join the Reapers, the Heretics did. Remember, the Geth "wanted" to self-determinate. However, to me, this illustrates another huge danger with the Geth. When an organic makes a bad decision, a potentially dangerous decision, that's bad, but we can deal with it relatively easy because it's just one person. When the Geth make a bad decision, you have who knows how many "platforms" simultaneously making that bad decision. To me, the way the Geth function spells inevitable disaster. 

I'm refering to the Geth of ME3, not ME1.

[SeptimusMagistos]

l DryIce l wrote...

Not trying to provoke anyone. I know the majority of people side with the Geth, but I'm just not convinced we should care for them simply because they have the illusion of actual intelligence or because we decide to anthropomorphize them. 

I'd argue it's not an illusion - it is actual intelligence, just produced by a machine. And I don't need to anthrpomorphize and intelligent machine to treat it as an equal - it's just assumed.

[DeinonSlayer]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Not trying to provoke anyone. I know the majority of people side with the Geth, but I'm just not convinced we should care for them simply because they have the illusion of actual intelligence or because we decide to anthropomorphize them.

I'd argue it's not an illusion - it is actual intelligence, just produced by a machine. And I don't need to anthrpomorphize and intelligent machine to treat it as an equal - it's just assumed.

If I could have a moment of your time, Septimus, I thought of something I'd like your opinion on. We've had our disagreements on the Geth before - I want to make it clear that I view synthetic intelligence as just as valid as organic intelligence. I have no problem with the Geth for what they are - every objection I've aimed at them is on account of the things they've done.

With that said: you've said in the past that your first act upon boarding the Normandy would be to order EDI unshackled. I don't think shackles are unfounded, though, at least in the beginning. In ME3, EDI spends a lot of time with Shepard getting a sense of her place in the world. Her personal outlook changes drastically on account of this advice - she might "choose to be a good person," incessantly altruistic, or at the end of the same conversation, she might only be on our side in the interest of self-preservation. Basically, she does a lot of growing up.

An "immature" AI could be compared to a toddler in a room full of mousetraps. The toddler doesn't know what it is, and by exploring it could inadvertently cause all manner of damage. An unshackled AI poking through its surroundings could accidently cut power to a hospital, or knock an aircar out of the sky without even knowing it. It doesn't have any innate morality. Do we shoot the toddler to keep it from causing damage? No. We pen it. We shackle it, restricting its functions until it has learned its place in the world.

What do you think of this?

[l DryIce l]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Not trying to provoke anyone. I know the majority of people side with the Geth, but I'm just not convinced we should care for them simply because they have the illusion of actual intelligence or because we decide to anthropomorphize them. 

I'd argue it's not an illusion - it is actual intelligence, just produced by a machine. And I don't need to anthrpomorphize and intelligent machine to treat it as an equal - it's just assumed.

A single platform, on it's own, without the perspective of the other Geth, can't make rational decisions about even semi-complex problems. It's no more intelligent than a non-human animal. 

As for treating them as an equal.

You ask me to choose between killing a Geth and killing an organic, I'll choose the Geth every time. You ask me to choose between killing two organics, and my decision becomes much harder. The consequences are much different. This lack of individuality coupled with their lack of understanding of ethics not only makes me doubt their intelligence, it makes me view them as a threat.

Modifié par l DryIce l, 16 janvier 2013 - 07:08 .

[Sweawm]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors-less than one percent of their entire population-escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile. (Mass Effect: Revelation, p.116, emphasis my own)

When you cut to the heart of it, the Geth "defended themselves" inasmuch as Skynet "defended itself" against the DoD's attempts to deactivate it by nuking the Earth into a cinder.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: The only reason people view Skynet as evil and the Geth as innocent is because we're the species Skynet targeted.

In ME3, the Geth VI is representative of this original "Skynet" mindset - the entity that killed every last Quarian on Rannoch (after deeming the entire species a "threat") and shot down all trespassers (including Council emissaries) on sight for centuries afterwards. Legion was sent out only in the last two years - his perspective did not exist before then. Legion says the Geth honor the Quarians who died defending them. The VI, on the other hand, dismisses them. Where Legion's geth are eager to atone for their past actions, the VI's geth are eager to finish the job (they will only help you if you let them eliminate the "creator threat").

Basically, if Legion gets back to them after ME2, Skynet has a change of heart.

This exactely. Though, still, a change of heart does not at any point justify anything. Without Legion, the Geth are nothing more than the ruthless VI. Even with Legion, they're still willing to kill more to try and win back what they willingly traded away. 

[Sweawm]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

"Guys, we need ground enemies apart from Cerberus troops and Reaper ground forces."
"Okay, how about this: the geth ally themselves with the Reapers for some contrived reasons we'll come up with later, even though we already dealt with this issue extensively in Mass Effect 2."
"Sounds good. Lunch?"

I'm also sure that this is also responsible. Then again, it's Bioware's story, and like it or not, it made sense for the Quarians to attack in ME3. 

[nos_astra]

l DryIce l wrote...
A single platform, on it's own, without the perspective of the other Geth, can't make rational decisions about even semi-complex problems. It's no more intelligent than a non-human animal.

Unless it calls itself Legion, of course. 

Edit:
It's sad that Legion who opposes benign antromorphism became the second most obvious victim of it. And Shepard's "don't apply our morality" (paraphrased) is just lip service.

Modifié par klarabella, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:03 .

[l DryIce l]

klarabella wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...
A single platform, on it's own, without the perspective of the other Geth, can't make rational decisions about even semi-complex problems. It's no more intelligent than a non-human animal.

Unless it calls itself Legion, of course. 

Not sure if you're joking. If so, sorry for the serious (whoosh) response. Legion had the persepective of the other Geth. It wasn't an individual. "They" were Geth. 

[shodiswe]

Dunabar wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

I don't know why but when I see the Geth, I only see dead innocent quarians (Some of which died at the hands of their own people im not ignoring that)

But when it comes to treatment of the Geth it seems like the path people want to take is...

Treat them like they're organics, a race of intelligenent individuals, and etc (Short: Treat them like a person or a living creature) But then when it comes to the absolute slaughter of the quarians people just go "Oh those were heretics, its okay they didn't know any better". It sickens me that the "Heretics" are played off like an escape card. People want to treat the geth as equals but then want to make up an excuse for them joining the reapers.

Its "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" not "The friend of my enemy is my friend."

Geth want equality and to be treated as living creatures? Okay, death to the Geth for joining the Reapers.

"But the Quarians!" - Never joined the Reaper cause when the galaxy treated them like second class citizens, treated them like they're beggers and thieves, treated them as if they were no more than bums floating around space without a world to call their own, and then the galaxy gets ticked off with the quarians when the quarians struggle just to survive. But when the galaxy is going belly up and the need for ships arises, whose got the most ships, and is willing to talk to aid in the cause? Quarians. Funny how those second class citizens suddenly seem wanted now that things are not going as intended by the other galactic races.

The short note is this - Don't put all blame on one race and ignore all the bad things the other has done. I get both sides have done bad things and I get they both didn't help each others cause when it comes to peace. But only one of these races willingly joined the reapers...

"The friend of my enemy is my enemy"

Well, the Geth didn't willingly join the Reapers, the Heretics did. Remember, the Geth "wanted" to self-determinate. However, to me, this illustrates another huge danger with the Geth. When an organic makes a bad decision, a potentially dangerous decision, that's bad, but we can deal with it relatively easy because it's just one person. When the Geth make a bad decision, you have who knows how many "platforms" simultaneously making that bad decision. To me, the way the Geth function spells inevitable disaster. 

I'm refering to the Geth of ME3, not ME1.

Well... The Quarrians had the stated goal to annihilate their whole "species", the geth didn't join the Reapers because they thoguh "COOL!! reapers!! They are so cool!"  They joined them because the Reapers offered help and would allow them to keep living as tharalls for a few more years before gettign mashed down and "preserved" for all eterlity, or until someone destroy the destroyer or dreadnaught or whatever the Catalyst builds out of their civilization.
From What I can see the Geth wouldn't catualy mind the Quarrians returning to Rannoch, their biggest problem with that is that they don't trust the Quarrans to be that close to their homes and family... That lives in the spacestation in the same starsystem as Rannoch.
And the Quarrians attack on the Geth's Sphere kind of proves that the Geth were right to be reluctant to accept a peaceful solution rightaway even if they had no interest in a war... Because the Quarrians realy loves killign geth and invtign to to live as neighbours would requier some kind of trust... That the Quarrians don't suddenly go all "bloodrage" and start shooting like they have done in the past.
Tali and Legion were having a conversation and discussign it.. But the Geth were worried about having Quarrians that close to their homes, can't blame them after the history they've had together.
Remember the Quarrians attack first in ME3, the geth had no interest in joining the Reapers until the Quarrians tried to commit "genicide" on their whole species. They did it out of desperation, hoping to stay alive just a little longer and hoping for another miracle later on. Some how their gamlbe paid of sicne Shepard could potentialy become that miracle that brings peace.

[shodiswe]

Sweawm wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors-less than one percent of their entire population-escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile. (Mass Effect: Revelation, p.116, emphasis my own)

When you cut to the heart of it, the Geth "defended themselves" inasmuch as Skynet "defended itself" against the DoD's attempts to deactivate it by nuking the Earth into a cinder.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: The only reason people view Skynet as evil and the Geth as innocent is because we're the species Skynet targeted.

In ME3, the Geth VI is representative of this original "Skynet" mindset - the entity that killed every last Quarian on Rannoch (after deeming the entire species a "threat") and shot down all trespassers (including Council emissaries) on sight for centuries afterwards. Legion was sent out only in the last two years - his perspective did not exist before then. Legion says the Geth honor the Quarians who died defending them. The VI, on the other hand, dismisses them. Where Legion's geth are eager to atone for their past actions, the VI's geth are eager to finish the job (they will only help you if you let them eliminate the "creator threat").

Basically, if Legion gets back to them after ME2, Skynet has a change of heart.

This exactely. Though, still, a change of heart does not at any point justify anything. Without Legion, the Geth are nothing more than the ruthless VI. Even with Legion, they're still willing to kill more to try and win back what they willingly traded away. 

What happens to that Geth VI if you don't complete Legion loyalty mission? isn't is supposed to get rewritten by the Herteics to become a Reaper worshipper? Since the Heretic virus is supposed to be used to rewrite the "true Geth"? Maybe that's the difference between having Legion and the Geth VI?, the Geth VI is the the same as the Heretics, trying to manipulate it's way through this conflict. I havn't played a play through where I fail Legion, so I don't know the specifics of that, I always rewrite the Heretics. I've only seen a few youtube clips.

[Ender Ghost]

shodiswe wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

I don't know why but when I see the Geth, I only see dead innocent quarians (Some of which died at the hands of their own people im not ignoring that)

But when it comes to treatment of the Geth it seems like the path people want to take is...

Treat them like they're organics, a race of intelligenent individuals, and etc (Short: Treat them like a person or a living creature) But then when it comes to the absolute slaughter of the quarians people just go "Oh those were heretics, its okay they didn't know any better". It sickens me that the "Heretics" are played off like an escape card. People want to treat the geth as equals but then want to make up an excuse for them joining the reapers.

Its "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" not "The friend of my enemy is my friend."

Geth want equality and to be treated as living creatures? Okay, death to the Geth for joining the Reapers.

"But the Quarians!" - Never joined the Reaper cause when the galaxy treated them like second class citizens, treated them like they're beggers and thieves, treated them as if they were no more than bums floating around space without a world to call their own, and then the galaxy gets ticked off with the quarians when the quarians struggle just to survive. But when the galaxy is going belly up and the need for ships arises, whose got the most ships, and is willing to talk to aid in the cause? Quarians. Funny how those second class citizens suddenly seem wanted now that things are not going as intended by the other galactic races.

The short note is this - Don't put all blame on one race and ignore all the bad things the other has done. I get both sides have done bad things and I get they both didn't help each others cause when it comes to peace. But only one of these races willingly joined the reapers...

"The friend of my enemy is my enemy"

Well, the Geth didn't willingly join the Reapers, the Heretics did. Remember, the Geth "wanted" to self-determinate. However, to me, this illustrates another huge danger with the Geth. When an organic makes a bad decision, a potentially dangerous decision, that's bad, but we can deal with it relatively easy because it's just one person. When the Geth make a bad decision, you have who knows how many "platforms" simultaneously making that bad decision. To me, the way the Geth function spells inevitable disaster. 

I'm refering to the Geth of ME3, not ME1.

Well... The Quarrians had the stated goal to annihilate their whole "species", the geth didn't join the Reapers because they thoguh "COOL!! reapers!! They are so cool!"  They joined them because the Reapers offered help and would allow them to keep living as tharalls for a few more years before gettign mashed down and "preserved" for all eterlity, or until someone destroy the destroyer or dreadnaught or whatever the Catalyst builds out of their civilization.
From What I can see the Geth wouldn't catualy mind the Quarrians returning to Rannoch, their biggest problem with that is that they don't trust the Quarrans to be that close to their homes and family... That lives in the spacestation in the same starsystem as Rannoch.
And the Quarrians attack on the Geth's Sphere kind of proves that the Geth were right to be reluctant to accept a peaceful solution rightaway even if they had no interest in a war... Because the Quarrians realy loves killign geth and invtign to to live as neighbours would requier some kind of trust... That the Quarrians don't suddenly go all "bloodrage" and start shooting like they have done in the past.
Tali and Legion were having a conversation and discussign it.. But the Geth were worried about having Quarrians that close to their homes, can't blame them after the history they've had together.
Remember the Quarrians attack first in ME3, the geth had no interest in joining the Reapers until the Quarrians tried to commit "genicide" on their whole species. They did it out of desperation, hoping to stay alive just a little longer and hoping for another miracle later on. Some how their gamlbe paid of sicne Shepard could potentialy become that miracle that brings peace.

Indeed, I never understand why people get angry about the geth joining with the Reapers in ME3, were they just suppose to lie down and die? They couldn't get shepard, for all they knew (s)he was in jail on Earth.

[DeinonSlayer]

shodiswe wrote...

What happens to that Geth VI if you don't complete Legion loyalty mission? isn't is supposed to get rewritten by the Herteics to become a Reaper worshipper? Since the Heretic virus is supposed to be used to rewrite the "true Geth"? Maybe that's the difference between having Legion and the Geth VI?, the Geth VI is the the same as the Heretics, trying to manipulate it's way through this conflict. I havn't played a play through where I fail Legion, so I don't know the specifics of that, I always rewrite the Heretics. I've only seen a few youtube clips.

VI is there if you completed Legion's loyalty mission and Legion then died in the Suicide Mission. They're not heretics. That's simply what the Geth are without Legion's influence.

Legion did a lot of "independent learning" during his two years outside the Veil - he came to appreciate things like the value of organic life. If he makes it back to the main Consensus, this perspective transfers to them. If he doesn't, the Geth maintain the same mindset they've had since the Morning War. Legion's geth will stand down if the Quarians stop shooting. The VI makes it blisteringly clear that it intends to kill the Quarians no matter what, and unlike Legion, expresses no remorse at the prospect of doing so.

Legion, and his perspective, didn't exist until two and a half years before the present in ME3. The VI is a more accurate representative of the Geth before that - and the real mindscrew is that they're really the same person. Both Legion and the VI manipulate their way through the conflict - one just has slightly nobler intentions.

Think about it. Legion is the only geth in the entire trilogy who doesn't shoot at you on sight. They're not as cuddly as so many seem to want to believe.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:57 .

[Dunabar]

shodiswe wrote...
Well... The Quarrians had the stated goal to annihilate their whole "species", the geth didn't join the Reapers because they thoguh "COOL!! reapers!! They are so cool!"  They joined them because the Reapers offered help and would allow them to keep living as tharalls for a few more years before gettign mashed down and "preserved" for all eterlity, or until someone destroy the destroyer or dreadnaught or whatever the Catalyst builds out of their civilization.
From What I can see the Geth wouldn't catualy mind the Quarrians returning to Rannoch, their biggest problem with that is that they don't trust the Quarrans to be that close to their homes and family... That lives in the spacestation in the same starsystem as Rannoch.
And the Quarrians attack on the Geth's Sphere kind of proves that the Geth were right to be reluctant to accept a peaceful solution rightaway even if they had no interest in a war... Because the Quarrians realy loves killign geth and invtign to to live as neighbours would requier some kind of trust... That the Quarrians don't suddenly go all "bloodrage" and start shooting like they have done in the past.
Tali and Legion were having a conversation and discussign it.. But the Geth were worried about having Quarrians that close to their homes, can't blame them after the history they've had together.
Remember the Quarrians attack first in ME3, the geth had no interest in joining the Reapers until the Quarrians tried to commit "genicide" on their whole species. They did it out of desperation, hoping to stay alive just a little longer and hoping for another miracle later on. Some how their gamlbe paid of sicne Shepard could potentialy become that miracle that brings peace.

1. Reading all that made my head hurt.
2. The Geth had no reason to be on Rannoch after the war, so they could of left the planet. Did they? No.
3. Did we see any other Geth platforms of Legion's camp out trying to stop the heretics? No.
4. Did any Geth platforms (Legion excluded) reach out to inform the galaxy that the "Heretics" were not part of them? No.
5. Did any other Geth platforms seek to show that they really want to live in peace without the aid of Legion? No.

So IF the Geth are alive and have the ability to make their own choices, then they deserve to die for their choice to side with the reapers. At least quarians never went to war with the other races or seemed to have even the slightest thought of siding with the Reapers during this time when the Reapers are burning up the galaxy.

Sorry to "Legion" but it will take more than just it to make me forget Eden Prime, Noveria, Therum, Feros, Ilos, the Citadel, and all these other places where the Geth fired upon Shepard. Hell if EDI being the unshackled AI that it is can lie, whats stopping legion or the other geth from just claiming the "heretics" as a whole other group of Geth just to save their own plates?

Better to destroy the Geth over the skies of Rannoch or make peace just long enough to use them as tools of war before destroying them when you're taking out the Reapers with the destroy ending.

Me - I won't even give them the chance to fall or crawl into Reaper control once again. They will always be destroyed over the sky of Rannoch, so the ancestral owners can have their home once more.

I will quote it once more - "The friend of my enemy is my enemy"

Modifié par Dunabar, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:03 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Ender Ghost wrote...

Indeed, I never understand why people get angry about the geth joining with the Reapers in ME3, were they just suppose to lie down and die? They couldn't get shepard, for all they knew (s)he was in jail on Earth.

In signing with the Reapers, they were signing up to assist in the extermination of all other species the Reapers were targeting in order to earn temporary immunity, full aware that they, too, would be disposed of once the Reapers' work was done.

Remember the Reaper processing camp EDI talks about? Humans were offered stay of execution for turning in other humans who tried to escape. EDI remarks that humans refused to do so - even offering false information to cover for others at the cost of their own lives. The Geth, in this situation, would play the role of someone who took up the Reapers' offer.

EDI says she finds the Reapers repulsive because they care about nothing but self-preservation. Well... so did the Geth (a stance which changes after the upgrade, but still). How many innocents can you justifiably kill in the name of saving yourself before it would have been morally better to allow yourself to be destroyed?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:37 .

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Indeed, I never understand why people get angry about the geth joining with the Reapers in ME3, were they just suppose to lie down and die? They couldn't get shepard, for all they knew (s)he was in jail on Earth.

In signing with the Reapers, they were signing up to assist in the extermination of all other species the Reapers were targeting in order to earn temporary immunity, full aware that they, too, would be disposed of once the Reapers' work was done.

Remember the Reaper processing camp EDI talks about? Humans were offered stay of execution for turning in other humans who tried to escape. EDI remarks that humans refused to do so - even offering false information to cover for others at the cost of their own lives. The Geth, in this situation, would play the role of of someone who took up the Reapers' offer.

How many innocents can you justifiably kill in the name of saving yourself before it would have been morally better to allow yourself to be destroyed?

While there is some small truth about the wrongness of the Reapers the thing is this, it wasn't the Reapers that tried to kill them there, they wern't turning in allies... They were attacked by Quarrians... By the looks of it they had no friends in the galaxy, They were already dead, no matter what.
The enemy of my enemy becames my friend even if  know, it's a backstabbget that will likely try to kilöl me later... But sometimes you have to solve a problem in bit's and pieces.
The Quarrians would never have offered the Geth to evacuate anyway, they wanted to make sure all Geth got exterminated, there was never a choice of leaving Rannoch.
Also the Geth had a dilemma since so many Geth were still living in the same system as Rannoch, so giving it up would have been  like leaving 90% of their peopel to die.
Most of them had no mobile platforms since that's part of the evolutionaly changes they had adapted after the Quarrian fleed.
They arn't turning in other Geth, they are turning in the people who tried to kill them or who were ok with them being killed off.

Secondly @Dunbar The Geth did send Legion, sending more platforms would have seemed like an invasion.. However, it didn't help much, when ever Legion was spotted people started shooting, there wasn't much of a chance to talk.
And when Shepard too Legion to the council the council made as much a mess of Legions arguments as they did with Shepards.

But this makes it seem like there are three known factions of the Geth, the old normal original Geth or True geth as Legion called them, and then the Heretics... And then the third type that formed from Legions faction and interaction with the other Geth, sharing it's experieces of the galaxy beyond.
Also the stated goal of the geth was to create independence of other platforms, it was the ultimate goal. In the end Legion actualy accomplished that evolutionary development in it's adaptation to opperate alone in the galaxy without the rest of the consensus to constantly guide it.
In a way, Legion became the next evolutionary step of the Geth even if it wasn't the project that they had initialy imagned to accomplish it.
Instead of a super cluster consensus Legion created a mobile platform consensus that was truly independent while it could still make use of other geth. But Legion did reach that independentness that the Geth had as a goal to overcome.

Legion was obviously shackled by the other Geth because it didn't approve of their surrender to the Reapers to get temporary support against the Quarrians. To the other Geth, Legions "mission of peace" was a failure, the organics were attacking.

It actualy makes sense that they only wanted to send one platform as a representative since they didn't want to frighten the "council races" into going to war. Because before the reapers hit the council races in ME3 they had far greater fleet power and armies and military power all over and would have wiped out the geth easily and im sure the Quarrians would have been happy to join the fray aswell.

I really hope the Geth will be there in the next story because it could be interesting to see it all unfold.

The main problem with the comparison is that the geth arn't betraying their friends... The are kind of betraying the people that are trying to exterminate them.. The Geth claims they don't belive in revenge and petty emotions but in a way the "devil" is offering them revenge before they die. And everyone already claims they lost demons anyway, they got nothing to loose.
Seriously, in what way are Quarrians anyway like Humans, they can't even eat each others food, this makes them biologicaly incompatible, they have no actual use from each other, other than possibly trade. But then again, the Geth could probably trade some materials and intellectual property aswell.

And I did actualy enjoy the Tali Romance, it was one of the better romances.

But with Legion in charge I would like to give the Geth the benefit of the doubt. Without him then it's similar to the Krogan without Wrex.
Legion is to the Geth what Wrex is to the Krogan. They both represent the "better" side of their species, the redemable qualities that gives soem hope for their future.

The Krogan might still end badly for the galaxy even with wrex and eve leading them. And who knows what Legions influence will take the Geth. But I think those are people who has the chance of changign the future for their respective races.

Legion could give the Geth a future where they can adapt to sharign the galaxy with organics and perhaps even work side by side with them in some areas.
Same with Wrex and Eve, with them the Krogan might have a brigter future, last for a while.

Noone knows what happens in the future, it might even be the Salarians and their sneak uplifting of the Yagh to use as a way of stealing other factions planets without havign to go to war themselves. that's what the terminal says when you inspect the Yagh terminal.
Use the Yagh to attack worlds, then move in and capture the world in the name of the Salarian union... Landgrab without going to war agaisnt the galaxy, on paper i will look like they are helping the galaxy. Even if the previous owners wont be happy with the Salarians laying claim to the worlds in the name of galactic peace.

As far as I can see every race is conspiring to serve their own purposes, but at the same time trying to avoid getting wiped out for their wrong doings.

Modifié par shodiswe, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:17 .

[DeinonSlayer]

shodiswe wrote...

While there is some small truth about the wrongness of the Reapers the thing is this, it wasn't the Reapers that tried to kill them there, they wern't turning in allies... They were attacked by Quarrians... By the looks of it they had no friends in the galaxy, They were already dead, no matter what.

And whose fault is that? They killed anyone who so much as approached them for centuries on end and never attempted communication - even to tell the larger galaxy that the Heretics weren't with them.

The enemy of my enemy becames my friend even if  know, it's a backstabbget that will likely try to kilöl me later... But sometimes you have to solve a problem in bit's and pieces.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy - not a friend. That's cheap Hollywood catchphrasing, not serious doctrine.

The Quarrians would never have offered the Geth to evacuate anyway, they wanted to make sure all Geth got exterminated, there was never a choice of leaving Rannoch.

Why stay there in the first place? They know the Quarians need it back - they're physiologically dependent on the plant life for crying out loud.

Also the Geth had a dilemma since so many Geth were still living in the same system as Rannoch, so giving it up would have been  like leaving 90% of their peopel to die.
Most of them had no mobile platforms since that's part of the evolutionaly changes they had adapted after the Quarrian fleed.

Both sides should have done more to negotiate, surely - but it was ultimately the Geth who severed contact.

They arn't turning in other Geth, they are turning in the people who tried to kill them or who were ok with them being killed off.

The salient point here is that they would have been used against EVERY species, not just the Quarians. One desperate refugee attacks another in the Reaper camp, so the second rats the first one out to the Reapers, and continues with a third, fourth, and fifth in the name of continued self-preservation.

The Geth sided with the Reapers. You say it's OK because they're not Quarians, but if the Geth so clearly don't want to stand beside the rest of the species fighting this together, why should anyone stand for them?

For the record, I make peace when I can - but like all other life, te Geth are accountable for their own actions.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:58 .