276 réponses à ce sujet

[Indy_S]

It's a difference in philosophical interpretation of life, not its literal meaning.

[Cyrax86]

@CynicalShep

The peace talks between Tali and Legion stopped before the Reapers invaded and the Quarians attacking. As i said before, The Reapers would have attacked the Geth eventually, The Geth sided with the Reapers because they lost intelligence when the Quarians hit their Dyson swarm/sphere, the Reapers would have done the same thing to the Geth or they would have lost intelligence over the course of the Reaper invasion. The Quarians attacking only caused them to join sooner. The all heretics =/= all Geth comment wasn't directed at you, it was just a general observation in this thread or when this type of thread pops up. People blame all Quarians for what Gerral did and yet you can't blame all Geth for what heretics did. I agree that the Quarians leadership leaves much to be desired, Gerral isn't fit to lead all Quarians, military yes, Raan isn't fit to lead a conga line. Koris isn't cowardly his priority is to protect and lead the Quarian civilians which he does. Tali says shes not ready to be a admiral and the only reason she took the job was because of Shep. The Rachni Queen was taken by force, she did not willing go with the Reapers, the Geth did. You missed my point, had any other race chose to willing ally with the Reapers they would have not gotten the same treatment(in game and on the forums).


The Quarians attacking the Geth wasn't suicide, Quarians were winning and were only taking few losses if any. The Quarians would have had their home world back if it wasn't for the Reapers. Quarians attacking the Reapers in their decaying ships with their entire population on board would have been suicide/genocide.

[CynicalShep]

Cyrax86 wrote...

@CynicalShep

The peace talks between Tali and Legion stopped before the Reapers invaded and the Quarians attacking. As i said before, The Reapers would have attacked the Geth eventually, The Geth sided with the Reapers because they lost intelligence when the Quarians hit their Dyson swarm/sphere, the Reapers would have done the same thing to the Geth or they would have lost intelligence over the course of the Reaper invasion. The Quarians attacking only caused them to join sooner. The all heretics =/= all Geth comment wasn't directed at you, it was just a general observation in this thread or when this type of thread pops up. People blame all Quarians for what Gerral did and yet you can't blame all Geth for what heretics did. I agree that the Quarians leadership leaves much to be desired, Gerral isn't fit to lead all Quarians, military yes, Raan isn't fit to lead a conga line. Koris isn't cowardly his priority is to protect and lead the Quarian civilians which he does. Tali says shes not ready to be a admiral and the only reason she took the job was because of Shep. The Rachni Queen was taken by force, she did not willing go with the Reapers, the Geth did. You missed my point, had any other race chose to willing ally with the Reapers they would have not gotten the same treatment(in game and on the forums).


The Quarians attacking the Geth wasn't suicide, Quarians were winning and were only taking few losses if any. The Quarians would have had their home world back if it wasn't for the Reapers. Quarians attacking the Reapers in their decaying ships with their entire population on board would have been suicide/genocide.

About the Reapers - it's a probability, not a certainty. They had their hands full, it's possible that they would have focused on Earth, Palaven and Thessia if Quarians didn't give them this window of opportunity.
About Koris, I didn't mean he is cowardly in that sense, I meant that he is not acting upon his beliefs. He is the Admiral of the life-ships, after all. I would be more vocal if I was responsible for the life of 90% of the quarians. He has good intentions but he is too soft to make a difference - he's no Admiral material, that's what I was saying.
I compared the Queen with Legion in that sense, they were in identical situations. It's strange however that Reapers couldn't indoctrinate her like they did in the Rachni Wars.
As about the treatment - I somewhat agree but there are reasons behind it. And given the opportunity, most would try to get them (insert random organic race) to oppose the Reapers again. First - the backstory makes it easy to sympathize with the Geth. They were the victims in ME3, not the aggressors. Second - you sort of do that with the Krogan. They were once fighting against the whole Galaxy and were defeated but spared. If Geth had similar urges they would have been exterminated. That's where another difference comes in: Geth have no emotions. That means no grudges, no urges, no hate, just math. 
As about the last part - that's where the whole thing doesn't make sense. As far as we know - Geth killed 99% of the Quarians in the Morning War. That made them terrible creatures and refuted the whole "self-defense" argument. That was primitive Geth. Well, fastforward 300 years, that 1% that barely escaped with their lives because they were spared is mauling the new, improved Geth (much better than the ones that killed 99% of the population) that likely built more of themselves and got new weapons. How does that make any sense to you? Also, in spite of winning the war with "barely any casualties" they can't put a dent on the Geth Dreadnaught. Sure, Reaper Code makes them smarter but it doesn't add shields, barriers and armor on a ship. The whole war/mission is a big clusterf*ck

Modifié par CynicalShep, 19 janvier 2013 - 04:52 .

[Dunabar]

Cyrax86 wrote...

@CynicalShep

The peace talks between Tali and Legion stopped before the Reapers invaded and the Quarians attacking. As i said before, The Reapers would have attacked the Geth eventually, The Geth sided with the Reapers because they lost intelligence when the Quarians hit their Dyson swarm/sphere, the Reapers would have done the same thing to the Geth or they would have lost intelligence over the course of the Reaper invasion. The Quarians attacking only caused them to join sooner. The all heretics =/= all Geth comment wasn't directed at you, it was just a general observation in this thread or when this type of thread pops up. People blame all Quarians for what Gerral did and yet you can't blame all Geth for what heretics did. I agree that the Quarians leadership leaves much to be desired, Gerral isn't fit to lead all Quarians, military yes, Raan isn't fit to lead a conga line. Koris isn't cowardly his priority is to protect and lead the Quarian civilians which he does. Tali says shes not ready to be a admiral and the only reason she took the job was because of Shep. The Rachni Queen was taken by force, she did not willing go with the Reapers, the Geth did. You missed my point, had any other race chose to willing ally with the Reapers they would have not gotten the same treatment(in game and on the forums).


The Quarians attacking the Geth wasn't suicide, Quarians were winning and were only taking few losses if any. The Quarians would have had their home world back if it wasn't for the Reapers. Quarians attacking the Reapers in their decaying ships with their entire population on board would have been suicide/genocide.

This is always something that makes me laugh at a lot of Geth supporters. "Well they held their civilians hostage by involving them in a war" - Yet people want them to do the exact same thing with an enemy who can actually spit (if they were able) in the optics of every geth and laugh at them (again if they were able).

While I doubt all 17 million people in the migrant fleet are all civilians, I'm going to guess that maybe 10-15 million are actually civilians. So where could these Civilians be left to avoid going into the war? I may be wrong but the reapers are burning up the galaxy at a pretty nasty speed. So where could they of gone to avoid conflict with the active paper weights?

[CynicalShep]

Dunabar wrote...

So where could they of gone to avoid conflict with the active paper weights?

If they are struggling in a conflict against paper weights it doesn't matter where they go. That incompetence will get them killed sooner or later. Or, you could just take the safety labels off stuff and watch natural selection do its job

[Indy_S]

The Geth could have just gone to a system or cluster without a relay. Yeah, it'd take them time but the Quarians wouldn't go after them. They could create their singularity in peace.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

The Geth could have just gone to a system or cluster without a relay. Yeah, it'd take them time but the Quarians wouldn't go after them. They could create their singularity in peace.

Why should the Geth do what the people that tried to murder them want?

[Dunabar]

CynicalShep wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

So where could they of gone to avoid conflict with the active paper weights?

If they are struggling in a conflict against paper weights it doesn't matter where they go. That incompetence will get them killed sooner or later. Or, you could just take the safety labels off stuff and watch natural selection do its job

The quarians were not having an issue kicking the paper weights around TILL the Reapers got involved. Know what could of made this all better and would of pleased both sides of this conflict?

Paragon - Geth get free will and peace is made.
Renegade - Geth are placed under control of the quarians again.

^-- I think this is a fair inbetween for the quarian fans and geth fans. If my favorite race in the game is going to be put in a light and portrayed as the "bad guys", at least give me the chance to go all out with it. But its BW's game and I accept their choice regardless, I just make good with my desires by blowing up the geth like I feel they deserve. Just saddens me that I cannot go all out and use them like the tools they are.

[BleedingUranium]

Wow, there's some serious racism going on in this thread.

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

The Geth could have just gone to a system or cluster without a relay. Yeah, it'd take them time but the Quarians wouldn't go after them. They could create their singularity in peace.

Why should the Geth do what the people that tried to murder them want?

I'm still confused about the Geth's emotional attachment to Rannoch. If they really wanted to be left alone, they'd recognise the issue inhabiting somebody's homeworld is putting themselves in the line of conflict.

[BleedingUranium]

It's just as much their homeworld.

[Cyrax86]

@ CynicalShep

You're mixing up the time line, The Quarians were defeating the Geth, then the Reapers showed up and extended the offer to the Geth, Geth accept and are improved, now the Quarians are losing. That 1% (see below)

@Dunabar
You've seen how the galaxy treats a few Quarians, which galactic race would be willing or able to help them. Currently the Quarians are paying for the mistakes of their ancestors, their paying for a mistakes that weren't theirs.

If civilians chose to abandon the fleet, were would they go? without the protection of their actual military ships how long would they last? The Quarians had little to no options.

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

It's just as much their homeworld.

That's the emotional attachment I spoke of. It's the issue that the attachment is stronger than their desire for peace. To be honest, most of my argument is based on my opinion that they shouldn't be emotional creatures. However, some people do want them to behave just like every organic race. I just wanted them to be unique in their own setting.

[BleedingUranium]

Cyrax86 wrote...

You've seen how the galaxy treats a few Quarians, which galactic race would be willing or able to help them. Currently the Quarians are paying for the mistakes of their ancestors, their paying for a mistakes that weren't theirs.

No, they're choosing to continue the mistakes of their anscetors, by trying to kill or control the Geth. They, as a society, never learned from the mistakes of their past.

As Shepard says when convincing the fleet to stand down, their entire history is them trying to kill the Geth, but the Geth do not want to fight them.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

It's just as much their homeworld.

That's the emotional attachment I spoke of. It's the issue that the attachment is stronger than their desire for peace. To be honest, most of my argument is based on my opinion that they shouldn't be emotional creatures. However, some people do want them to behave just like every organic race. I just wanted them to be unique in their own setting.

You do realise that they have always been emotional, right? This isn't a new thing in ME3 or something.

[Cyrax86]

Iamjdr wrote...

@ cyrax86 <--fixed sp 
That's very true many are willing to doom the quarians simply due to there incompetent leadership not realizing that there views are not a valid representation of the views of the rest of the quarian people. Yet I've only ever met legion and every other Geth has tried to kill me... But the Geth are super trustworthy its not like legion would lie to me..... or keep secrets about hiding reaper code..but seriously did you see that consensus quarians are jerks...[upload reaper code].

nah, :S the best part of the Geth consensus mission is when they showed the Geth bombing entire cities, using chemical weapons and killing billions of innocent Quarians. :S

[BleedingUranium]

Cyrax86 wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

@ cyrax86 <--fixed sp 
That's very true many are willing to doom the quarians simply due to there incompetent leadership not realizing that there views are not a valid representation of the views of the rest of the quarian people. Yet I've only ever met legion and every other Geth has tried to kill me... But the Geth are super trustworthy its not like legion would lie to me..... or keep secrets about hiding reaper code..but seriously did you see that consensus quarians are jerks...[upload reaper code].

nah, :S the best part of the Geth consensus mission is when they showed the Geth bombing entire cities, using chemical weapons and killing billions of innocent Quarians. :S

You definitely missed the point of that mission.

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

That's the emotional attachment I spoke of. It's the issue that the attachment is stronger than their desire for peace. To be honest, most of my argument is based on my opinion that they shouldn't be emotional creatures. However, some people do want them to behave just like every organic race. I just wanted them to be unique in their own setting.

You do realise that they have always been emotional, right? This isn't a new thing in ME3 or something.

Yeah, I know... But like that other thread said, Chris L'Etoile didn't want them to be emotional. The fact that they became that way through an artist wanting Legion to have Shepard's breastplate tells me that I would have preferred Chris' interpretation. Such is life, though. It didn't make it into the game. Their desire to hold their homeworld just resonated wrong with me.

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

@ cyrax86 <--fixed sp 
That's very true many are willing to doom the quarians simply due to there incompetent leadership not realizing that there views are not a valid representation of the views of the rest of the quarian people. Yet I've only ever met legion and every other Geth has tried to kill me... But the Geth are super trustworthy its not like legion would lie to me..... or keep secrets about hiding reaper code..but seriously did you see that consensus quarians are jerks...[upload reaper code].

nah, :S the best part of the Geth consensus mission is when they showed the Geth bombing entire cities, using chemical weapons and killing billions of innocent Quarians. :S

You definitely missed the point of that mission.

I think the ':S' means sarcasm, in which case he was well aware.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

@ cyrax86 <--fixed sp 
That's very true many are willing to doom the quarians simply due to there incompetent leadership not realizing that there views are not a valid representation of the views of the rest of the quarian people. Yet I've only ever met legion and every other Geth has tried to kill me... But the Geth are super trustworthy its not like legion would lie to me..... or keep secrets about hiding reaper code..but seriously did you see that consensus quarians are jerks...[upload reaper code].

nah, :S the best part of the Geth consensus mission is when they showed the Geth bombing entire cities, using chemical weapons and killing billions of innocent Quarians. :S

You definitely missed the point of that mission.

I think the ':S' means sarcasm, in which case he was well aware.

Ah, my bad then

[Dunabar]

Cyrax86 wrote...
@Dunabar
You've seen how the galaxy treats a few Quarians, which galactic race would be willing or able to help them. Currently the Quarians are paying for the mistakes of their ancestors, their paying for a mistakes that weren't theirs.

If civilians chose to abandon the fleet, were would they go? without the protection of their actual military ships how long would they last? The Quarians had little to no options.

Exactly, nobody is giving the quarians any aid and yet they want the aid of the quarians. The quarians don't owe anyone anything, but because they're organic like the other species they're still willing to talk and help. Fighting the Reapers is just as much their fight as anyones and yet people blame the quarians, when its actually the quarians who are in the hardest spot of all.

What seems to me to be the most common geth support belief is - If you hold the geth responsible for the heretics, then you need to hold the alliance responsible for cerberus. But the big difference between these two is this - The Alliance makes efforts to stop cerberus, the geth make NO efforts to stop the suppose "Heretics"

Just fyi Cyrax86, im not targetting you by any means. Just saying lol

[Cyrax86]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

You've seen how the galaxy treats a few Quarians, which galactic race would be willing or able to help them. Currently the Quarians are paying for the mistakes of their ancestors, their paying for a mistakes that weren't theirs.

No, they're choosing to continue the mistakes of their anscetors, by trying to kill or control the Geth. They, as a society, never learned from the mistakes of their past.

As Shepard says when convincing the fleet to stand down, their entire history is them trying to kill the Geth, but the Geth do not want to fight them.

 Wrong, The Quarians avoided direct conflict(or open war) with the Geth, as per request of the council. They went to search for a new home planet, when they found one, it was taken away or given to another race by the council, if they didn't leave the council said they would use military force. 
Their only choices were to take Rannoch back and hope they can make repairs in time to fight the Reapers or fight the Reapers as is in their decaying ships with all civilians/children on board. 

[BleedingUranium]

Dunabar wrote...

What seems to me to be the most common geth support belief is - If you hold the geth responsible for the heretics, then you need to hold the alliance responsible for cerberus. But the big difference between these two is this - The Alliance makes efforts to stop cerberus, the geth make NO efforts to stop the suppose "Heretics"

At first? No, because that's not how Geth think. Their way of dealing with such things is as alien to us as breathing underwater, but that doesn't make it bad or wrong. And you're also forgetting that attacking Heretic Station was Legion's idea.

[BleedingUranium]

Cyrax86 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

You've seen how the galaxy treats a few Quarians, which galactic race would be willing or able to help them. Currently the Quarians are paying for the mistakes of their ancestors, their paying for a mistakes that weren't theirs.

No, they're choosing to continue the mistakes of their anscetors, by trying to kill or control the Geth. They, as a society, never learned from the mistakes of their past.

As Shepard says when convincing the fleet to stand down, their entire history is them trying to kill the Geth, but the Geth do not want to fight them.

 Wrong, The Quarians avoided direct conflict(or open war) with the Geth, as per request of the council. They went to search for a new home planet, when they found one, it was taken away or given to another race by the council, if they didn't leave the council said they would use military force. 
Their only choices were to take Rannoch back and hope they can make repairs in time to fight the Reapers or fight the Reapers as is in their decaying ships with all civilians/children on board. 

No, there are plenty of other things they could have done. And they've wanted to take Rannoch back ever since they left, but it took them until now to develop the tech to do it.

[Dunabar]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

What seems to me to be the most common geth support belief is - If you hold the geth responsible for the heretics, then you need to hold the alliance responsible for cerberus. But the big difference between these two is this - The Alliance makes efforts to stop cerberus, the geth make NO efforts to stop the suppose "Heretics"

At first? No, because that's not how Geth think. Their way of dealing with such things is as alien to us as breathing underwater, but that doesn't make it bad or wrong. And you're also forgetting that attacking Heretic Station was Legion's idea.

Right sending the organics to clean up their mess. Heck at least by saving the quarian ship I was doing it for more than just "I want to deactivate more geth", I was doing it for LIVING people, a crew member who had been with shep since the start, and protecting civilians.

Legion's mission to me was "Im doing the work you all should have done before" and if I remember right (Most likely I dont lol.) Didn't the Geth gather some sort of concensus that favored destroying the heretics but only by a small amount? (Which fyi even if its a small amount, its still majority rule) yet they still refused to act and left it in Shep's hands?

Modifié par Dunabar, 19 janvier 2013 - 06:34 .