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[DirtyPhoenix]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Not
so much the whole trilogy. The worst parts are during the third game.
The only character you point your gun at that doesn't deserve it is the
Virmire Survivor. They're standing up to you because they think you're
about to destabilise the most important government. (Strange how nothing
comes from that... You did kill him exactly like the VS thought)

We
haven't made an actual complaint in over a page. We seem to be
discussing the value of mind control as a source of motivation. It could
be used well but reducing everything to a black-and-white world is not
using it well.

To you. I don't see the conflict with the main villain being black-and-white as a bad thing.

There's
a reason that it's like that in 3: the Reapers are here. Merc groups
aren't going to fight each other for money, we fight the Reapers or we
die, all of us together. Everyone capable of thinking for themselves
will put aside rivalries and hates at least until the Reapers are dead,
even people like Ka'hairal Balak. Because that's the smart thing to do.

Yes. To me.

And
what if a group of people resented the fact that their colony was just
going to be abandoned to the Reapers. They'd do everything in their
power to make that change. If they could take a councillor hostage, they
could get the military agree to defend their colony. That's all a
hypothetical situation revolving around the conflict without introducing
indoctrination or even having the Reapers play an active part.

What
if the other species resent that we're fighting for Earth? What if
somebody starts dramatically profiteering from the war by offering
nothing but horrible 'safe haven' scams? Other conflicts can exist, in
fact they're not that hard to think of. Black-and-white can work but
adding depth to the situation is preferable.

They are all indoctrinated, ofcourse.

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:48 .

[BleedingUranium]

pirate1802 wrote...

^They are all indoctrinated, ofcourse.

But that's not bad, you don't like it in the same way I don't like coffee, so I don't drink coffee. Indoctrination is a core element of Mass Effect, and has been since Eden Prime, if you don't like that, why play ME at all? It seems a bit like complaining ME is a sci-fi because you don't like sci-fis. Then why play one?

[Indy_S]

The 'if you don't like X don't play it' argument would make sense if we were playing indoctrination. We reserve the right to dislike components of a whole. If you dislike coffee (a whole), you don't drink coffee. And those conflicts don't come up in the game in any meaningful way. Nobody does anything for reasons besides fighting the Reapers or lolindoctrination.

[DirtyPhoenix]

BleedingUranium wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

^They are all indoctrinated, ofcourse.

But that's not bad, you don't like it in the same way I don't like coffee, so I don't drink coffee. Indoctrination is a core element of Mass Effect, and has been since Eden Prime, if you don't like that, why play ME at all? It seems a bit like complaining ME is a sci-fi because you don't like sci-fis. Then why play one?

Because I still love the trilogy on the whole, just not some aspects of it.

[Aiyie]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

assuming indoctrination is a combination of psychological and physiological conditioning, as it states in the codex, then like any other conditioning its effects could be cumulative.

like any form of conditioning, all people are susceptible, but given varying degrees of personal willpower, the length of time and amount of exposure needed for the conditioning to take effect will vary between people.

there are two questions to consider: first, was Shepard exposure time limited enough to be offset by her time not exposed?  and second, how strong were the efforts to condition her while she was exposed?

we already know that Shepard did begin to succumb to indoctrination from the final conversation she had with TIM, where she shoots Anderson; so I would say that her willpower to resist was at its limits, and if her overall exposure had been even slightly greater, or more focused, then she would have been a tool of the reapers just like any other indoctrinated human.

the biggest question we've seen on these boards has been what form of conditioning is indoctrination?

is it an all or nothing proposal... where one doesn't experience any reaper influence until full indoctrination has set in?  or is it a gradual phenomenom, where one's action's gradually become more and more reaper-friendly as the effects of the conditioning increase, eventually passing a point of no-return where the conditioning becomes irreversible?

TIM's actions over the course of the entire series seems to suggest that its more likely to be the second scenario... which is what brought up the whole indoc theory BS last year.

Modifié par Aiyie, 17 janvier 2013 - 11:11 .

[Indy_S]

Is TIM's control over Shepard and Anderson related to indoctrination or instead biotics? The oily lines on the screen don't connect to either. From what I can understand, indoctrination is mind control so why is there a pulse when TIM brings his hand up?

[CaptainCommander]

To be honest I have no idea how indoctrination works! Mainly cause in ME1 all the survivors on Eden Prime say that could hear things in their heads when Sovereign landed but then in ME3 its changed to needing to be inside it as EDI says about the Earth leaders. It also seems that the speed is not consistent either. EDI says that the Earth leaders will be indoctrinated by just entering the Reaper superstructure but Shepard has done that and isn't. Then you get the chick from Virmir who had one exposure in ME1 but in ME3 was completely indoctrinated!
Shepard should be indoctrinated because he fits all the ingame examples of indoctrination. Been in a Reaper, been around Reapers, touched Reaper objects but hey.
Like the guy on the first page said...The writers said he wasn't.

[Aiyie]

Indy_S wrote...

Is TIM's control over Shepard and Anderson related to indoctrination or instead biotics? The oily lines on the screen don't connect to either. From what I can understand, indoctrination is mind control so why is there a pulse when TIM brings his hand up?

its not exactly mind control.

the codex suggests that indoctrination is not Harbinger-style "taking direct control"...

its more along the lines of Hitler's convincing the German people to gladly and willingly follow him to hell without questioning.

indoctrination is a bit more extensive, as its an actual alteration of personality via physiological alterations (instead of just psychological alterations as human demagogues have done throughout history), to make someone actually believe in the reaper cause, not against their will (as would be the case with straight up mind-control), but with their full support and cooperation.

mind-control would require direct Reaper intervention at all times... indoctrination does not.  its effects are independent of the Reapers themselves... who can be off napping in dark space while their indoctrinated victims are still doing as they would want.

Modifié par Aiyie, 17 janvier 2013 - 11:17 .

[Indy_S]

That's the best answer I can come up with too. He could be, probably isn't, doesn't matter and the Word of God says 'no'.

[Indy_S]

Aiyie wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Is TIM's control over Shepard and Anderson related to indoctrination or instead biotics? The oily lines on the screen don't connect to either. From what I can understand, indoctrination is mind control so why is there a pulse when TIM brings his hand up?

its not exactly mind control.

the codex suggests that indoctrination is not Harbinger-style "taking direct control"...

its more along the lines of Hitler's convincing the German people to gladly and willingly follow him to hell without questioning.

its an actual alteration of personality, to make someone actually believe in the reaper cause, not against their will (as would be the case with straight up mind-control), but with their full support and cooperation.

So how is TIM directly controlling Shepard mean indoctrination is at work?  Subtle personality alteration doesn't make people able to control one another with magic hand gestures. Don't take this as a dig at you, I can't make the link using the setting.

[Aiyie]

Indy_S wrote...

That's the best answer I can come up with too. He could be, probably isn't, doesn't matter and the Word of God says 'no'.

gotta love plot armor.

just unfortunate that ME3 had such a sub-par plot compared to the other games in the series.

[Aiyie]

Indy_S wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Is TIM's control over Shepard and Anderson related to indoctrination or instead biotics? The oily lines on the screen don't connect to either. From what I can understand, indoctrination is mind control so why is there a pulse when TIM brings his hand up?

its not exactly mind control.

the codex suggests that indoctrination is not Harbinger-style "taking direct control"...

its more along the lines of Hitler's convincing the German people to gladly and willingly follow him to hell without questioning.

its an actual alteration of personality, to make someone actually believe in the reaper cause, not against their will (as would be the case with straight up mind-control), but with their full support and cooperation.

So how is TIM directly controlling Shepard mean indoctrination is at work?  Subtle personality alteration doesn't make people able to control one another with magic hand gestures. Don't take this as a dig at you, I can't make the link using the setting.

i don't believe the Shep shooting Anderson thing was something TIM directly ordered.

couple factors.

first, TIM was himself indoctrinated, fully and completely.  which meant that everything TIM did would have been something the Reaper's wanted.  so we can't really say that TIM made Shepard shoot Anderson at all.

but can we say the Reapers made Shepard shoot Anderson instead?  i don't think so.  at least not directly.

however, we can say that the Reapers would have considered both Anderson and Shepard threats, especially considering where they were at the time.  Which would have made any being under the influence of indoctrination want to eliminate those threats.

Shepard had a gun, Anderson was a threat to the Reapers, if she was experiencing the effects of indoctrination, then she would have wanted to eliminate that threat to the Reapers... i.e. shooting Anderson.

but, why not shoot herself?

well, when you look at everyone who's been indoctrinated throughout the series, it appears that only husks and the such lose any sense of self-preservation.  all other indoctrinated individuals still appear to do as much as possible to continue to live (most likely because the longer they live, the longer that they can effectively serve the Reapers).

as for the struggle against shooting him... well, if she hadn't reached that point of no-return yet, she would have still struggled with herself about if that was the right thing to do or not (both before and immediately after committing the act if the act itself was not the breaking point).

Modifié par Aiyie, 17 janvier 2013 - 11:29 .

[Indy_S]

Then why have TIM's gesture at all? They put it there for a cinematic reason, are we just to assume that it was meaningless?

[Aiyie]

Indy_S wrote...

Then why have TIM's gesture at all? They put it there for a cinematic reason, are we just to assume that it was meaningless?

emphatic physical gesturing from a passionate individual who was himself dealing with an internal struggle as a result of the internal conflict posed between what Shepard was telling him and what he had been conditioned to believe.

think of it kinda like nervous pacing or hand wringing. 

dude was having a pretty heavy existential identity crisis... not very surprising he'd be making gestures and whatnot like he did.

Modifié par Aiyie, 17 janvier 2013 - 11:42 .

[BleedingUranium]

The game files identify TIM's magic powers as indoctrination.

[Indy_S]

So it's an indoctrination completely unlike every other instance of indoctrination. Direct muscle control. Strange... I can't be sure that BioWare knew at this point what limits they had set themselves.

[Eryri]

TIM's direct control of Shepard and Anderson is an unusual example. It's more akin to the Leviathan's enthralment ability, which seems to allow them to directly puppet another being. The difference there is that the subject is completely controlled, and isn't able to speak.
It's also similar to the biotic ability Dominate, which incidentally becomes available to Shepard as an ME3 bonus power after completing Leviathan.

[Indy_S]

Can we agree that TIM's control of Shepard makes no sense in a literal interpretation of the ending?

[dorktainian]

Indy_S wrote...

Can we agree that TIM's control of Shepard makes no sense in a literal interpretation of the ending?

    

Also..if TIM is so innocent, why is he constructing a human reaper?  Why is he creating an army of collectors for the next cycle?

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

Can we agree that TIM's control of Shepard makes no sense in a literal interpretation of the ending?

Agreed, it's actually the most unprecedented thing in the whole ending, especially literally.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 janvier 2013 - 12:36 .

[Eryri]

Indy_S wrote...

Can we agree that TIM's control of Shepard makes no sense in a literal interpretation of the ending?

Yes we can. But then of course, there's not much that does make sense in a literal interpretation of the ending.

[Restrider]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Compelling evidence for sure. I've never seen this video. But if the dream sequences represent Shepard being slowly indoctrinated, why was he ever allowed to reach Earth, let alone the beam?

Because being in the process of being indoctrinated is not the same actaully being indoctrinated. It's the difference between dying and being dead, or the difference between being tortured and the moment you break.

So... what's your point? Are you saying the reapers let Shepard defeat them on purpose?

Does anyone remember EDI's line at the FOB in London where she points out that the Reapers hold their forces back for no apparent reason?
That reason is never given in ME3... unless...

[CoolioThane]

Soon

[Kulbelbolka]

Because Shepard is The Chosen One and he has an immunity to indoctrination.

[Restrider]

Btw, why is everyone convinced that Udina was indoctrinated?
I know it was mentioned as a possibility for his behaviour, but I always thought he allied himself with Cerberus out of desperation or maybe having connections to them (cue Udina's racisto speech in the renegade end of ME1) since all time.

Modifié par Restrider, 17 janvier 2013 - 01:44 .