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[Genetic Destiny]

BECAUSE I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE REAPERS HOODWINKED ME!! I CHOSE CONTROL (on my 1st playthrough) BECAUSE IT WAS THE RIGHT CHOICE!!!!!!!! F***K ANDERSON, HACKETT AND ALL MY SQUADDIES THE REAPERS WERE THE RIGHT ONES THEY'RE ALOT MORE NOBLE THAN ALL OF THEM DUMB ALLIES OF MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just kidding...or am I?

[WhiteKnyght]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

He's been around Reaper tech more than anybody hasn't he?  Object Rho even claimed that Shepard's mind would be his...


Any and everyone... you have the floor.

Niftu Cal also claimed he was a biotic god. But Shepard/Wasea always win. Also Randall Ezno was a Cerberus agent implanted with Reaper tech meant to indoctrinate him. It didn't. Easy way to see it is that Shepard is immune to the powers of indoctrination like Ezno.

One theory I have is that its because Shepard died. Cerberus seriously augmented Shepard's remains in order to bring him back to life. Which could have affected his mind, brainwaves and brain chemistry, in any number of unpredictable ways.

Meaning it's not that the Reaper's cant indoctrinate Shepard, but that they don't know how. Think about it, every organic race has it's own composition, hormones, brain chemistry. But the Reapers can seeming control them all as if by magic. The obvious answer is that the Reapers have to learn what makes each race tick in order to be able to control them.

 But Shepard is one of a kind. He was an extraordinary human before he died, and after he died, he was altered in a million different ways to be brought back to the living. They would have to experiement on him to learn how.

[dreamgazer]

Genetic Destiny wrote...

BECAUSE I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE REAPERS HOODWINKED ME!! I CHOSE CONTROL (on my 1st playthrough) BECAUSE IT WAS THE RIGHT CHOICE!!!!!!!! F***K ANDERSON, HACKETT AND ALL MY SQUADDIES THE REAPERS WERE THE RIGHT ONES THEY'RE ALOT MORE NOBLE THAN ALL OF THEM DUMB ALLIES OF MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just kidding...or am I?

Well, sure. Shepard's allies are nothing but bacteria, right?

[Genetic Destiny]

dreamgazer wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

BECAUSE I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE REAPERS HOODWINKED ME!! I CHOSE CONTROL (on my 1st playthrough) BECAUSE IT WAS THE RIGHT CHOICE!!!!!!!! F***K ANDERSON, HACKETT AND ALL MY SQUADDIES THE REAPERS WERE THE RIGHT ONES THEY'RE ALOT MORE NOBLE THAN ALL OF THEM DUMB ALLIES OF MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just kidding...or am I?

Well, sure. Shepard's allies are nothing but bacteria, right?

Yes. My new form of existence reminds me that all my loved ones are accidents, whose lives are measured in years and decades. Still, now that Harbinger's mind is mine (not vice-versa AFAIK...) I will do what I can to protect them, and if need be...save them from their own stupidity.

[Genetic Destiny]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Again, Shepard's exposure to 'Rho or any given Reaper has simply not been long enough to indoctrinate him.

We think.

"Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant."
 
According to the Wiki.


So actual indoctrination could take minutes or even hours... theoretically...


which brings me back to the topic's question.

I would like to add Anne Bryson to this, who was completely confident she had nothing to fear when it came to indoctrination, because she felt she wasn't around Leviathan tech long enough. Quite ironic considering what happened later on.

And if anyone's willing to refute that by saying 'LeviathanTech =/= ReaperTech', remember this: The Leviathans' natural enthrallment was perfected to become what we call Reaper Indoctrination. So basically, LeviathanTech<ReaperTech. If the Leviathans can start the process even from short-term contact (Anne Bryson's living proof), then the Reapers definitely can.

[Bill Casey]

dreamgazer wrote...

Well, sure. Shepard's allies are nothing but bacteria, right?

I hope not...
"We can eliminate poverty, disease and overpopulation"

[Indy_S]

Enthrallment was turned into Indoctrination? Because Enthrallment seemed more powerful considering a Leviathan Enthralled a Reaper immediately upon contact with it. The Reapers don't have anything as immediate.

[Genetic Destiny]

Indy_S wrote...

Enthrallment was turned into Indoctrination? Because Enthrallment seemed more powerful considering a Leviathan Enthralled a Reaper immediately upon contact with it. The Reapers don't have anything as immediate.

That Leviathan did say he's a prodigy. Therefore it must be quite skilled among his species, and skilled enough to turn a reaper apparently.

EDIT: He said 'progeny', misheard what he said on my first playthrough. My best guess now is that since most reapers are made from lesser species, they can control them like they would if the reaper was still a bunch of unprocessed individuals. Harbinger's probably the only reaper that'd be immune to this, since Leviathans might not be able to enthrall each other. 

Modifié par Genetic Destiny, 19 juillet 2013 - 05:04 .

[Grubas]

wait a moment.
TIM could never control the reapers, because he was inodctrinated.
But TIM did indoctrinate Shepard.
Shepard killed TIM before he could finish Indoctrination, but we know the process is irreversible.
So Shepard was partly indoctrinated, when the catalyst summoned him.

Think about it.

Modifié par Grubas, 19 janvier 2013 - 11:51 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Grubas wrote...

wait a moment.
TIM could never control the reapers, because he was inodctrinated.
But TIM did indoctrinate Shepard.
Shepard killed TIM before he could finish Indoctrination, but we know the process is irreversible.
So Shepard was partly indoctrinated, when the catalyst summoned him.

Think about it.

If Shepard is partially indoctrinated and it is irreversible, then we're screwed no matter what we choose, even refuse.

[Eryri]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

He's been around Reaper tech more than anybody hasn't he?  Object Rho even claimed that Shepard's mind would be his...


Any and everyone... you have the floor.

Niftu Cal also claimed he was a biotic god. But Shepard/Wasea always win. Also Randall Ezno was a Cerberus agent implanted with Reaper tech meant to indoctrinate him. It didn't. Easy way to see it is that Shepard is immune to the powers of indoctrination like Ezno.

One theory I have is that its because Shepard died. Cerberus seriously augmented Shepard's remains in order to bring him back to life. Which could have affected his mind, brainwaves and brain chemistry, in any number of unpredictable ways.

Meaning it's not that the Reaper's cant indoctrinate Shepard, but that they don't know how. Think about it, every organic race has it's own composition, hormones, brain chemistry. But the Reapers can seeming control them all as if by magic. The obvious answer is that the Reapers have to learn what makes each race tick in order to be able to control them.

 But Shepard is one of a kind. He was an extraordinary human before he died, and after he died, he was altered in a million different ways to be brought back to the living. They would have to experiement on him to learn how.

That's a good point regarding Randall. Some people may indeed be more resistant to indoctrination that others.

However, the Leviathans were still able to capture Shepard's mind with ease, and TIM was also able to perform some sort of non-standard domination of Shepard, so he can't be completely resistant.

Indy_S wrote...

Enthrallment was turned into Indoctrination? Because Enthrallment seemed more powerful considering a Leviathan Enthralled a Reaper immediately upon contact with it. The Reapers don't have anything as immediate.

The Leviathan itself admitted that their version of enthrallment was refined and perfected by the Reapers and became indoctrination. If something as arrogant as a Leviathan is prepared to conceed that the Reapers are better at something than they are, it seems safe to assume that it's really the case.

Enthrallment seems to be an active process - a Leviathan has to conciously concentrate on a target to puppet it directly. Indoctrination on the other hand seems to be more "fire and forget". Once a subject is indoctrinated it no longer needs constant supervision. It acts to serve the Reapers even without them having to control its every movement. It seems to be more subtle than enthrallment, and can be applied to more targets at once.

Lastly, Harbinger does have something just as instantaneous in his arsenal. He can directly control the Collectors from thousands of light years away, while he's still in dark space. Admittedly they're full of implants, so they're designed to be more efficient receivers, but it still resembles enthrallment.

Modifié par Eryri, 19 janvier 2013 - 01:57 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

He's been around Reaper tech more than anybody hasn't he?  Object Rho even claimed that Shepard's mind would be his...


Any and everyone... you have the floor.

Niftu Cal also claimed he was a biotic god. But Shepard/Wasea always win. Also Randall Ezno was a Cerberus agent implanted with Reaper tech meant to indoctrinate him. It didn't. Easy way to see it is that Shepard is immune to the powers of indoctrination like Ezno.

One theory I have is that its because Shepard died. Cerberus seriously augmented Shepard's remains in order to bring him back to life. Which could have affected his mind, brainwaves and brain chemistry, in any number of unpredictable ways.

Meaning it's not that the Reaper's cant indoctrinate Shepard, but that they don't know how. Think about it, every organic race has it's own composition, hormones, brain chemistry. But the Reapers can seeming control them all as if by magic. The obvious answer is that the Reapers have to learn what makes each race tick in order to be able to control them.

 But Shepard is one of a kind. He was an extraordinary human before he died, and after he died, he was altered in a million different ways to be brought back to the living. They would have to experiement on him to learn how.

... aaaaaand was able to be controlled by TIM through Reaper technology... with TIM himself being Indoctrinated.  Sometimes you just gotta wonder what happened.

[ZajoE38]

Shepard spent some time near Reaper tech yes, but way to short to get indoctrinated. Every character in ME universe spent long time near the Reaper tech to get indoctrinated. With exception of Grayson who were pumped with the Reaper nanites and even got red sand distributor to open his will to them as fast as possible.. even that took few days! Saren was studying the Sovereign for 18 years (slow indoctrination - to make him agent)!!! TIM spent 6 months with Reaper core in his base and after that he was only partially indoctrinated till huskified. We can also assume that Kensen were near object Rho also quite a long time. Also the cerberus scientists on the derelict Reaper wasn't there for just 2 days, but much longer, etc etc. Many people thinks that Shepard near object Rho for 2 days is long enough and use as an argument to support various delusion theories. But 2 days near object Rho and few hours in presence of Reaper tech is not enough to indoctrinate.

[ElSuperGecko]

Genetic Destiny wrote...
...I will do what I can to protect them, and if need be...save them from their own stupidity.

Let me guess?  By "preserving them in Reaper form"?
Liareaper.  Garreaper.  Taleaper.  Wreaper.  THE TIME HAS COME.  EMBRACE PERFECTION. 

[dorktainian]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...
...I will do what I can to protect them, and if need be...save them from their own stupidity.

Let me guess?  By "preserving them in Reaper form"?
Liareaper.  Garreaper.  Taleaper.  Wreaper.  THE TIME HAS COME.  EMBRACE PERFECTION. 

  


this person has got it spot on...      

[ElSuperGecko]

But what I want to know, the ultimate, all-consuming question...

....would Reaper Garrus still wear a monocle?

[dorktainian]

would reaper grunt........grunt?

[JBPBRC]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I'd loooove to hear Bioware answer this one. And don't worry Liamv2, no harm no foul... call it as you see it.^^

Ha! Watch it be mass effect fields or something equally ridiculous.

[DRACO1130]

Shep is a mutant.
Consider what has occurred through all 3 of the mass effect games.
Exposure to the Prothean Beacon
Mind linking with Numerous Asari
Receiving the prothean Cipher
Leviathan examined shep and said his mind was unique.
Shep is the one and only Human immune to indoctrination.
a mutant.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

DRACO1130 wrote...

Shep is a mutant.
Consider what has occurred through all 3 of the mass effect games.
Exposure to the Prothean Beacon
Mind linking with Numerous Asari
Receiving the prothean Cipher
Leviathan examined shep and said his mind was unique.
Shep is the one and only Human immune to indoctrination.
a mutant.

Then how did the Indoctrinated TIM use Indoctrination to control Shepard?

[LilyasAvalon]

I'd like to think it had something to do with the Prothean beacon from ME1 preventing them from major indoctrination.

That's just my headcanon though. I still firmly believe the reapers did, at some point or another in ME3, TRY to indoctrinate Shepard. Now, whether it worked or not depends on what ending I'm following.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

*snip*

Then how did the Indoctrinated TIM use Indoctrination to control Shepard?

Notice how hard that seemed to be though? That wasn't even true indoctrination, that was more like, mind control. Brief and instantaneous.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 19 juillet 2013 - 11:05 .

[dorktainian]

Shepard Undergoing Indoctrination - the rapid type - during the final mission.
TIM Already Indoctrinated.

[Erez Kristal]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


Then how did the Indoctrinated TIM use Indoctrination to control Shepard?

Tim never indoctrinated shepard, he was using biotics or telekinesis. indoctrination is a manipulation of the mind, what tim was doing, was a manipulation of the body.

http://social.biowar.../index/16934842

Modifié par erezike, 19 juillet 2013 - 02:27 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

erezike wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


Then how did the Indoctrinated TIM use Indoctrination to control Shepard?

Tim never indoctrinated shepard, he was using biotics or telekinesis. indoctrination is a manipulation of the mind, what tim was doing, was a manipulation of the body.

http://social.biowar.../index/16934842

It's a control of the mind.  We already know that TIM gave himself Reaper enhancements and he was controlling Shepard's body through his mind (Similar to how the Reapers controlled Grayson).  We already know that Shepard was not implanted with any type of control chip, so Indoctrination is the only way TIM could've exerted control over Shepard.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 19 juillet 2013 - 04:38 .

[Genetic Destiny]

TIM going "Look at the power they wield! Look at what they can do!" When he makes Shepard shoot Anderson is strange. If he's the one doing it, why is he crediting the reapers? Not to mention if you choose the first Renegade dialogue line (Q:" Why waste your time with us if you can control the reapers?" A: "Because...I need you to believe...") things seem alarming in hindsight.

Then we have the Catalyst admitting they already controlled TIM, which makes me question everything that just happened. Is TIM really the one influencing Shepard? I really doubt it.