335 réponses à ce sujet

[Tron Mega]

If there was a trial for andersons death then who is responsible?

Ill pay a million bucks to anyone who answers that corectly.

[dreamgazer]

Tron Mega wrote...

If there was a trial for andersons death then who is responsible?

Ill pay a million bucks to anyone who answers that corectly.

Nobody. The case would crumble in court. 

[NeonFlux117]

Tron Mega wrote...

If there was a trial for andersons death then who is responsible?

Ill pay a million bucks to anyone who answers that corectly.

Aaron Hernandez.... Everything is his fault. It was actually Hernandez who wrote the endings of ME3. 

These are facts people!

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Genetic Destiny wrote...

TIM going "Look at the power they wield! Look at what they can do!" When he makes Shepard shoot Anderson is strange. If he's the one doing it, why is he crediting the reapers? Not to mention if you choose the first Renegade dialogue line (Q:" Why waste your time with us if you can control the reapers?" A: "Because...I need you to believe...") things seem alarming in hindsight.

Then we have the Catalyst admitting they already controlled TIM, which makes me question everything that just happened. Is TIM really the one influencing Shepard? I really doubt it.

That does have interesting implications.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Tron Mega wrote...

If there was a trial for andersons death then who is responsible?

Ill pay a million bucks to anyone who answers that corectly.

Depends on where Anderson's body is.

[Erez Kristal]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

erezike wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


Then how did the Indoctrinated TIM use Indoctrination to control Shepard?

Tim never indoctrinated shepard, he was using biotics or telekinesis. indoctrination is a manipulation of the mind, what tim was doing, was a manipulation of the body.

http://social.biowar.../index/16934842

It's a control of the mind.  We already know that TIM gave himself Reaper enhancements and he was controlling Shepard's body through his mind (Similar to how the Reapers controlled Grayson).  We already know that Shepard was not implanted with any type of control chip, so Indoctrination is the only way TIM could've exerted control over Shepard.

How do you know its a control of the mind? just because tim implanted himself with reaper tech doesnt really mean much about his control over shepard.

[AlexMBrennan]

We already know that Shepard was not implanted with any type of control chip,

How so? Miranda claimed that Shepard wasn't implanted with a control chip in the ME2 intro and that's it. You'd quite literally have to cut Shepard up and remove every last implant to be sure.

Besides, prior to Miranda mentioning the control chip we thought that indoctrination was the only way of "mind controlling" someone, so based on what do you conclude that this list (indoctrination and control chip) is exhaustive

It's a control of the mind.

Look at the scene: Shepard is held in place and made to shoot Anderson whilst clearly straining against the command whilst TIM is trying to convince Shepard; arguing with an indoctrinated slave would be rather redundant.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AlexMBrennan wrote...
How so? Miranda claimed that Shepard wasn't implanted with a control chip in the ME2 intro and that's it. You'd quite literally have to cut Shepard up and remove every last implant to be sure.

Besides, prior to Miranda mentioning the control chip we thought that indoctrination was the only way of "mind controlling" someone, so based on what do you conclude that this list (indoctrination and control chip) is exhaustive

Miranda's the one who rebuilt Shepard, if anyone knows, she knows.  If you trust Miranda (no reason not to), then there is no control chip.

Look at the scene: Shepard is held in place and made to shoot Anderson whilst clearly straining against the command whilst TIM is trying to convince Shepard; arguing with an indoctrinated slave would be rather redundant.

Look at Grayson, the Reapers took over Grayson's body through the mind (and isolated Grayson in it).  It's one thing to be taken over, and another to become a "willing" slave.  The Reapers can either override a person's motor/speech functions or transform that person into what they want completely (via full rewriting of the brain).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 20 juillet 2013 - 08:56 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

erezike wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

erezike wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


Then how did the Indoctrinated TIM use Indoctrination to control Shepard?

Tim never indoctrinated shepard, he was using biotics or telekinesis. indoctrination is a manipulation of the mind, what tim was doing, was a manipulation of the body.

http://social.biowar.../index/16934842

It's a control of the mind.  We already know that TIM gave himself Reaper enhancements and he was controlling Shepard's body through his mind (Similar to how the Reapers controlled Grayson).  We already know that Shepard was not implanted with any type of control chip, so Indoctrination is the only way TIM could've exerted control over Shepard.

How do you know its a control of the mind? just because tim implanted himself with reaper tech doesnt really mean much about his control over shepard.

Because the body can't be controlled without the mind.  Also look at how Shepard grabs at his head as he's taken over.

[Erez Kristal]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...



Because the body can't be controlled without the mind.  Also look at how Shepard grabs at his head as he's taken over.

How do you tell between controlled and forced?
http://en.wikipedia....i/Psychokinesis

[Mr. Gogeta34]

erezike wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...



Because the body can't be controlled without the mind.  Also look at how Shepard grabs at his head as he's taken over.

How do you tell between controlled and forced?
http://en.wikipedia....i/Psychokinesis

It's tough because in actuality, it seems as though Indoctrination does both at the same time... with one being more subtle.

TIM could "talk" about his intention to 'control' the Reapers all day (even though that decision was guided to by the Reapers)... yet, the Reapers can also literally stop TIM in his tracks from doing anything more than talk.

[dorktainian]

and now people talk indoctrination. I'd like to say 'told you so' but i'll leave that to others.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

dorktainian wrote...

and now people talk indoctrination. I'd like to say 'told you so' but i'll leave that to others.

So you feel Shepard was indoctrinated?

[Humakt83]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Look at the scene: Shepard is held in place and made to shoot Anderson whilst clearly straining against the command whilst TIM is trying to convince Shepard; arguing with an indoctrinated slave would be rather redundant.

You really think Anderson is being held with the same control chip?

Furthermore, indoctrination is not a total mind control. The Reapers use suggestion to go together with long-term indoctrination, intention is to make the victim believe what they desire. It is most effective that way to make a proper sleeper agent. Sure, they also can use pain temporaly to force subject to obey akin to Thorian.

Illusive Man: "Because... I need you to believe."

And indoctrination is not on-off switch, its effects are gradual.

Modifié par Humakt83, 20 juillet 2013 - 10:55 .

[AlanC9]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


It's tough because in actuality, it seems as though Indoctrination does both at the same time... with one being more subtle.

Indoctrination symptoms are pretty much incoherent, and always were. In ME1 Benezia and Saren don't behave the same way at all.

[o Ventus]

Humakt83 wrote...

Furthermore, indoctrination is not a total mind control.

It can be. See Dr. Kenson in Arrival, when Shepard is first zapped by Object Rho.

[masster blaster]

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


It's tough because in actuality, it seems as though Indoctrination does both at the same time... with one being more subtle.

Indoctrination symptoms are pretty much incoherent, and always were. In ME1 Benezia and Saren don't behave the same way at all.

Really? Saren seemed to me like he was, and Benezia said that Saren's voice was in her head, which actually was Nazara. Also I call bs. Many times you hear about these symptoms and many times have we heard the Indoctrinated people talk about the voices in there heads, and in Arrival they talk about " the nightmers"

[masster blaster]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

TIM going "Look at the power they wield! Look at what they can do!" When he makes Shepard shoot Anderson is strange. If he's the one doing it, why is he crediting the reapers? Not to mention if you choose the first Renegade dialogue line (Q:" Why waste your time with us if you can control the reapers?" A: "Because...I need you to believe...") things seem alarming in hindsight.

Then we have the Catalyst admitting they already controlled TIM, which makes me question everything that just happened. Is TIM really the one influencing Shepard? I really doubt it.

That does have interesting implications.

That's the reason why I don't pick Control. At best the Catalyst is trying to control your Shepard/ you the player's thoughts about Controlling the Reapers.  Your being used to believe you can control the Reapers, where it's the reapers that Control your Shepardd. Yes yes EC slide shows, but how do you knowwhat you see is actually a fabrication created to fool Shepard/ the player? Just saying.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...


It's tough because in actuality, it seems as though Indoctrination does both at the same time... with one being more subtle.

Indoctrination symptoms are pretty much incoherent, and always were. In ME1 Benezia and Saren don't behave the same way at all.

Benezia behaved exactly like Grayson while Saren behaved exactly like TIM.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

masster blaster wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Genetic Destiny wrote...

TIM going "Look at the power they wield! Look at what they can do!" When he makes Shepard shoot Anderson is strange. If he's the one doing it, why is he crediting the reapers? Not to mention if you choose the first Renegade dialogue line (Q:" Why waste your time with us if you can control the reapers?" A: "Because...I need you to believe...") things seem alarming in hindsight.

Then we have the Catalyst admitting they already controlled TIM, which makes me question everything that just happened. Is TIM really the one influencing Shepard? I really doubt it.

That does have interesting implications.

That's the reason why I don't pick Control. At best the Catalyst is trying to control your Shepard/ you the player's thoughts about Controlling the Reapers.  Your being used to believe you can control the Reapers, where it's the reapers that Control your Shepardd. Yes yes EC slide shows, but how do you knowwhat you see is actually a fabrication created to fool Shepard/ the player? Just saying.

I personally didn't pick Control (outside of seeing what it did) because it just didn't make sense to me.  You're dead, but you'll control the Reapers.... riiiiiiiight.  When did the Reapers have time to copy Shepard into another, non-charred form?

[AlanC9]

masster blaster wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Indoctrination symptoms are pretty much incoherent, and always were. In ME1 Benezia and Saren don't behave the same way at all.

Really? Saren seemed to me like he was, and Benezia said that Saren's voice was in her head, which actually was Nazara. Also I call bs. Many times you hear about these symptoms and many times have we heard the Indoctrinated people talk about the voices in there heads, and in Arrival they talk about " the nightmers"

Saren seemed like he was ... what?

And if you're going to call b.s., I guess we'll have to  get into the specifics. You up for it?

[AlanC9]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Benezia behaved exactly like Grayson while Saren behaved exactly like TIM.

Right. We've got two different symptom patterns. Then Leviathan adds something that looks different from either.

I wasn't clear earlier that this isn't necessarily a problem. Indoctrination might present differently in different individuals just as physical diseases sometimes do. But it does make it much harder to talk intelligently about the subject, since we don't have any real way to tell what's Indoctrination and what isn't.

[KENNY4753]

because then synthesis wouldnt be possible...........

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Benezia behaved exactly like Grayson while Saren behaved exactly like TIM.

Right. We've got two different symptom patterns. Then Leviathan adds something that looks different from either.

I wasn't clear earlier that this isn't necessarily a problem. Indoctrination might present differently in different individuals just as physical diseases sometimes do. But it does make it much harder to talk intelligently about the subject, since we don't have any real way to tell what's Indoctrination and what isn't.

It could be two different methods to the same goal: controlling organic minds.

Some control can be over motor and speech functions, while another (likely higher) type of control is exerted over the person's will as well.

But that leaves a large plot hole if we infer that such control means indoctrination.  Because Shepard was clearly under TIM's control through Reaper technology... so why didn't the Reapers defeat Shepard?  Why control just TIM when Shepard is more valuable at that crucial point?

If the answer is that Shepard's not indoctrinated... back to the original question:  "Why wasn't Shepard Indoctrinated?"

[Mr. Gogeta34]

KENNY4753 wrote...

because then synthesis wouldnt be possible...........

That's a good answer... unless it was Synthesis with an Indoctrinated Shepard

Galaxy-wide Indoctrination Confirmed.