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[Ymladdych]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
It could be two different methods to the same goal: controlling organic minds.

Some control can be over motor and speech functions, while another (likely higher) type of control is exerted over the person's will as well.

But that leaves a large plot hole if we infer that such control means indoctrination.  Because Shepard was clearly under TIM's control through Reaper technology... so why didn't the Reapers defeat Shepard?  Why control just TIM when Shepard is more valuable at that crucial point?

If the answer is that Shepard's not indoctrinated... back to the original question:  "Why wasn't Shepard Indoctrinated?"

It seems to me that indoctrination falls into one of the following flavors:

Direct Control (total possession) - 100% of brain functions are Reaper controlled. The victim has no willpower, and in fact, I suspect the victim's identity is completely unconscious at this point; it's all Reaper in there. If the Reapers release their grasp, the victim probably wouldn't remember any events from when he/she was "under" - like the Leviathan thralls.

Temp Control (simple motor control) - this is the "It's like beating your hands on the glass while watching yourself" experience. The victim's still conscious, and if it's a rapid indoctrination, he/she might struggle for control. Long-term victims, like Dr. Kenson, might not fight it, because they've been brainwashed to accept the Reapers' POV. (She wants to see the "blessings of the Reapers.")

Psychological manipulation (brainwashing) - torment the victim with visions and whispers to mentally exhaust them and wear down their will. Thought insertion, where the victim "hears" an idea in their head and believes it to be their own. Emotional manipulation. The victim becomes a "willing slave," but if he/she "sees" the manipulation and starts to fight, the Reapers may assume control, if their connection's strong enough. These are the long-term, sleeper agents.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ymladdych wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
It could be two different methods to the same goal: controlling organic minds.

Some control can be over motor and speech functions, while another (likely higher) type of control is exerted over the person's will as well.

But that leaves a large plot hole if we infer that such control means indoctrination.  Because Shepard was clearly under TIM's control through Reaper technology... so why didn't the Reapers defeat Shepard?  Why control just TIM when Shepard is more valuable at that crucial point?

If the answer is that Shepard's not indoctrinated... back to the original question:  "Why wasn't Shepard Indoctrinated?"

It seems to me that indoctrination falls into one of the following flavors:

Direct Control (total possession) - 100% of brain functions are Reaper controlled. The victim has no willpower, and in fact, I suspect the victim's identity is completely unconscious at this point; it's all Reaper in there. If the Reapers release their grasp, the victim probably wouldn't remember any events from when he/she was "under" - like the Leviathan thralls.

Temp Control (simple motor control) - this is the "It's like beating your hands on the glass while watching yourself" experience. The victim's still conscious, and if it's a rapid indoctrination, he/she might struggle for control. Long-term victims, like Dr. Kenson, might not fight it, because they've been brainwashed to accept the Reapers' POV. (She wants to see the "blessings of the Reapers.")

Psychological manipulation (brainwashing) - torment the victim with visions and whispers to mentally exhaust them and wear down their will. Thought insertion, where the victim "hears" an idea in their head and believes it to be their own. Emotional manipulation. The victim becomes a "willing slave," but if he/she "sees" the manipulation and starts to fight, the Reapers may assume control, if their connection's strong enough. These are the long-term, sleeper agents.

That's a good summary of it.  And essentially (to put them to characters as an example:

Direct Control:  Collectors

Temp Control:  Grayson, Benezia

Psychological Manipulation:  Saren, TIM


One thing though, Temp Control in both cases happened through implants the victims received (reaper tech implants).  I'd assume Direct Control works the same way, but to a more completed degree.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 juillet 2013 - 10:56 .

[Ymladdych]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
That's a good summary of it.  And essentially (to put them to characters as an example:

Direct Control:  Collectors

Temp Control:  Grayson, Benezia

Psychological Manipulation:  Saren, TIM

Thanks!  Yeah, that character breakdown seems about right, although everyone except the Collectors demonstrated aspects of the other types, too. (Saren even fell under Direct Control at the very end.)

One thing though, Temp Control in both cases happened through implants the victims received (reaper tech implants).  I'd assume Direct Control works the same way, but to a more completed degree.

Total Control would probably require implants, but Temp Control might not. An EM emitter strong enough to affect a victim's cerebral cortex would suffice. Something like that could block signals from the prefrontal region (overriding the victim's "will") and excite areas like the primary motor cortex.

Here's a video demonstration of simple, real-life "Temp Control" in action: medicalxpress.com/news/2011-04-magnetic-fields-editor-video.html

(I'm a brain nerd, if you couldn't tell.)

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Very interesting... with that in mind, what's your take on Shepard? Was he Indoctrinated?

[Xenite]

Indoctrination was the original intent of the Mass Effect 3 storyline and at some point was pulled and they inserted the generic star child tripe. Was done to wrap the game development up quicker, most likely that story angle couldn't be told in the time they had left before going gold.

Anyone who tries to argue it's not, clearly doesn't pay attention to any of the games content. The game literally has dozens of tells that are meant to point the player to the indoctrination idea. You can explain a handful, not dozens. But that's all been covered in several well made videos.

[Ymladdych]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Very interesting... with that in mind, what's your take on Shepard? Was he Indoctrinated?

Oy, and so the loaded shoe drops...

I don't accept IT as it's most commonly presented, no. (The "Everything after the laser was in Shepard's head" position.)

I *do* believe, however, that the Reapers had a foothold in his mind and were taking psychological potshots.

Now, do I think that selecting anything but "Destroy" means that he was successfully indoctrinated? Genuine answer: I don't know. It could roll a bunch of different ways.

[AlexMBrennan]

But that's all been covered in several well made videos.

And I say that the points have been refuted a thousand times. Now what?

[Sir George Parr]

I thought that this possibility was being introduced while playing the Arrival dlc. As i did wonder if it was going to have a good twist at the end like what happens to Donald Sutherlands character in the ending of 'Invasion of the body snatchers', instead it was choose your favourite colour, which for me was a let down.

[Erez Kristal]

being indoctrinated is like having schizophrenia.
Sheapard has a lot of schizophrenia during cutscenes where he prooves himself to be incompetent.
this is why mass effect 3 had a lot of streamlining
This new shepard was controled by the reaper overlord and not by the players.

[masster blaster]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

But that's all been covered in several well made videos.

And I say that the points have been refuted a thousand times. Now what?

Refuted or " not giving a dam about them, or does this prove it right?"  THe point is to see that how easily it is for Shepard/ the player to be tricked into being fooled by the Reapers at the end of ME3. Yes the EC's, but one can argue that the EC only shows the "good" out comes and not the plot holes that are in all the endings. Not to mention the crucible was NOT designed to even have a synthesis option. I mean really Control and Destroy options yes, however synthesis.....should not even pre there.

[masster blaster]

erezike wrote...

being indoctrinated is like having schizophrenia.
Sheapard has a lot of schizophrenia during cutscenes where he prooves himself to be incompetent.
this is why mass effect 3 had a lot of streamlining
This new shepard was controled by the reaper overlord and not by the players.

That's the problem I have with Control. WE do not Control Shepard. For all we know Shepard AI is being Controlled by the catalyst, and belives that it's doing good were it can be doing bad. Yes EC proves wrong, however the EC added to many plot holes, and NEVER showed the bad outcomes with the exception of low ems endings, yet there is still hope to rebuild.