335 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Wait, how did you come to the conclusion that he wasn't being indoctrinated?

The narrative didn't make it official.

Speculations from everyone?

If by "official", do you mean "flash it in big letters"?

By that logic, you don't think the PTSD Asari in the hospital was talking about Joker's sister, because it wasn't spelled out for you.

I don't mean that, no.

If Shepard was Indoctrinated he wouldn't have needed to get as far as he had.

Unless he's only actually indoctrinated at the end.

Why would the Catalyst have an indoctrinated person make a choice?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

demersel wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Read my first post on the first page. Indoctrination takes time. Minutes and hours of exposure doesn't cut it.

Walking into that lab and gunning down all Reaper agents in your way means that you're not going to be captured.

Thus, you will not be indoctrinated.

That is a nice sentiment. 

It is not sentiment, friendy. It is factual canon lore.

How do you define "Rapid Indoctrination?"  Because that is officially just as possible as the "slow, patient indoctrination" you're advocating.  There doesn't seem to be a specific, recorded time limit for Indoctrination.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:46 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

So basically Object Rho had no idea what it was talking about?

Object Rho doesn't talk. It was probably Harbinger talking through it. That's how indoctrination works.

And the Reapers have mistakenly believed in their imminent victory many times.

Them failing or being wrong is nothing new.

Shepard was struggling while he was conscious... but eventually he did get overwhelmed by Rho's shockwave and passed out.  He stayed there a while... around the same Reaper tech that indoctrinated the station.

It was two days. Fact.

How long do you think it took the Alliance team to get The Project nearly-complete?

Because that's how long it took to indoctrinate them.

[Eryri]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Also, where is all this "Husks can now indoctrinate" stuff coming from? They can't. Reapers can, yet it requires prolonged exposure. 

From the Codex:

Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

[BleedingUranium]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

If by "official", do you mean "flash it in big letters"?

By that logic, you don't think the PTSD Asari in the hospital was talking about Joker's sister, because it wasn't spelled out for you.

If you really did ever stop and listen to the PTSD Asari every time (I never did, just watched it on youtube) it might as well have been flashed in big letters.

That's one of my countless gripes with IT. If the player is supposed to recognize the hallucination, but it appears no different than what's treated as reality, then the ending is a presentation failure.

I get that you don't want to make it "obvious" on them, but you're still sacrificing logical writing technique for the sake of it. If you can't tell reality apart from dream, then the entire game might as well be hallucination.

It is very obvious though. The difference from the moment you get
lased by Harbinger is very clear, as is the breath scene, that's what
sets it apart from the claims of "the whole game/series was a dream".

Remember that the point is to indoctrinate the player,
so making it too obvious would be counterproductive. You're not
supposed to understand what's going on until you reflect on it after the
fact. If you could tell it was a hallucination on your first
playthrough they wouldn't have done their jobs right.

[BleedingUranium]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Why would the Catalyst have an indoctrinated person make a choice?

Because Shepard isn't indoctrinated before making the choice.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

How do you define "Rapid Indoctrination?"  Because that is officially just as possible as the "slow, patient indoctrination" you're advocating.  There doesn't seem to be a specific, recorded time limit for Indoctrination.

Rapid Indoc. occurs when one has been injected with Reaper nanides (the process of being turned into a husk).

Slow Indoc. is the Reapers taking control of your brain through signal.

Where we've seen the latter process occur, it typically took a matter of days to set in.

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

If by "official", do you mean "flash it in big letters"?

By that logic, you don't think the PTSD Asari in the hospital was talking about Joker's sister, because it wasn't spelled out for you.

If you really did ever stop and listen to the PTSD Asari every time (I never did, just watched it on youtube) it might as well have been flashed in big letters.

That's one of my countless gripes with IT. If the player is supposed to recognize the hallucination, but it appears no different than what's treated as reality, then the ending is a presentation failure.

I get that you don't want to make it "obvious" on them, but you're still sacrificing logical writing technique for the sake of it. If you can't tell reality apart from dream, then the entire game might as well be hallucination.

It is very obvious though. The difference from the moment you get lased by Harbinger is very clear, as is the breath scene, that's what sets it apart from the claims of "the whole game/series was a dream".

Remember that the point is to indoctrinate the player, so making it too obvious would be counterproductive. You're not supposed to understand what's going on until you reflect on it after the fact. If you could tell it was a hallucination on your first playthrough they wouldn't have done their jobs right.

If this is about IT (and it really looks like it is), then the story has no proper conclusion. The core conflict (galaxy vs Reapers) isn't resolved. You are saying BioWare sold us an incomplete story without any promise that it would be completed later and you are somehow calling it 'genius'.

And if a character's motivations have been altered and clarity or revelation is not provided, there's no point in changing their motivations. They are just suddenly acting out of character.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

HYR 2.0 wrote...



Object Rho doesn't talk. It was probably Harbinger talking through it. That's how indoctrination works.

And the Reapers have mistakenly believed in their imminent victory many times.

Them failing or being wrong is nothing new.

The line "Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine" is credited to Object Rho in the game...  just sayin.'

It was two days. Fact.

How long do you think it took the Alliance team to get The Project nearly-complete?

Because that's how long it took to indoctrinate them.

Fact is, it was likely not exactly 2 days, but who's counting right?

The moment of Indoctrination isn't always (if ever) when they show the signs.  They wouldn't make for very good deep cover agents if that were the case.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Why would the Catalyst have an indoctrinated person make a choice?

Because Shepard isn't indoctrinated before making the choice.

Why indoctrinate Shepard after he makes the final choice of the game?

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

If this is about IT (and it really looks like it is), then the story has no proper conclusion. The core conflict (galaxy vs Reapers) isn't resolved. You are saying BioWare sold us an incomplete story without any promise that it would be completed later and you are somehow calling it 'genius'.

That's exactly what I'm saying. ME3 wraps up its own story, but not the series's story, just like ME1 and ME2. Regardless, that's not an argument against IT, just your personal reason for disliking it.

[BleedingUranium]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Why would the Catalyst have an indoctrinated person make a choice?

Because Shepard isn't indoctrinated before making the choice.

Why indoctrinate Shepard after he makes the final choice of the game?

The final choice is the indoctrination. If you choose to align with the Reapers' goals, you have become indoctrinated. The choices are just a metaphor.

[Indy_S]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Why indoctrinate Shepard after he makes the final choice of the game?

Without the player's input, Shepard has forgotten how to breathe. This is where the Reapers take over and they force him to take a breath. Or they force him to force them to force him to force them to... Or they... How does Synthesis work again? And last of all, in Refuse, they indoctrinate him so he has someone to play 'I Spy' with.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

BleedingUranium wrote...

It is very obvious though. The difference from the moment you get
lased by Harbinger is very clear, as is the breath scene, that's what
sets it apart from the claims of "the whole game/series was a dream".

That only lasts from him getting up until walking to the beam. After that, it goes back to normal.

We've seen that fuzzy vision before, anyways. It happened in the intro when Shepard got slammed into the wall after a Reaper laser-beam scraped by him (sound familiar?).

Remember that the point is to indoctrinate the player,
so making it too obvious would be counterproductive. You're not
supposed to understand what's going on until you reflect on it after the
fact. If you could tell it was a hallucination on your first
playthrough they wouldn't have done their jobs right.

I realize that. However, I'd say their job is telling a coherent story.

But that's opening another can-of-worms.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Indy_S wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Why indoctrinate Shepard after he makes the final choice of the game?

Without the player's input, Shepard has forgotten how to breathe. This is where the Reapers take over and they force him to take a breath. Or they force him to force them to force him to force them to... Or they... How does Synthesis work again? And last of all, in Refuse, they indoctrinate him so he has someone to play 'I Spy' with.

lol ahhhhhh

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

If this is about IT (and it really looks like it is), then the story has no proper conclusion. The core conflict (galaxy vs Reapers) isn't resolved. You are saying BioWare sold us an incomplete story without any promise that it would be completed later and you are somehow calling it 'genius'.

That's exactly what I'm saying. ME3 wraps up its own story, but not the series's story, just like ME1 and ME2. Regardless, that's not an argument against IT, just your personal reason for disliking it.

Core conflict in ME1: Shepard versus Saren. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME2: Shepard versus Collectors. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME3: Shepard versus Reapers. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME3(IT): Shepard versus Reapers. Status: Unresolved.

It doesn't wrap up its own story. The conflict would still exist in ME3(IT), not just the series's story, but the game's own story. It's a very different scenario to ME1 and ME2. It's one of the few points the ending actually has going for it. And finally, it is both an argument against IT and the reason I dislike it. Very few novels end in 'and the last fifteen minutes were a dream', it's almost as if there's a reason for it.

[Rhayak]

Considering all the time he spent close to the Reapers and their tech, expecially in Arrival, and also that Indoctrination effects are cumulative, it can't be anything than a plot thing.

Shepard is the hero, therefore he resists.

Might be a weak answer, but it's still way more believable than IT.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Why would the Catalyst have an indoctrinated person make a choice?

Because Shepard isn't indoctrinated before making the choice.

Why indoctrinate Shepard after he makes the final choice of the game?

The final choice is the indoctrination. If you choose to align with the Reapers' goals, you have become indoctrinated. The choices are just a metaphor.

What were the Reaper's goals in that sense?

[Eryri]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

If this is about IT (and it really looks like it is), then the story has no proper conclusion. The core conflict (galaxy vs Reapers) isn't resolved. You are saying BioWare sold us an incomplete story without any promise that it would be completed later and you are somehow calling it 'genius'.

That's exactly what I'm saying. ME3 wraps up its own story, but not the series's story, just like ME1 and ME2. Regardless, that's not an argument against IT, just your personal reason for disliking it.

Core conflict in ME1: Shepard versus Saren. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME2: Shepard versus Collectors. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME3: Shepard versus Reapers. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME3(IT): Shepard versus Reapers. Status: Unresolved.

It doesn't wrap up its own story. The conflict would still exist in ME3(IT), not just the series's story, but the game's own story. It's a very different scenario to ME1 and ME2. It's one of the few points the ending actually has going for it. And finally, it is both an argument against IT and the reason I dislike it. Very few novels end in 'and the last fifteen minutes were a dream', it's almost as if there's a reason for it.

To offer my two cents, this is how I see it

Core conflict in ME1: Shepard versus Saren. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME2: Shepard versus Collectors. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME3: Shepard versus Reapers. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME3(IT): Shepard versus Reapers Indoctrination. Status: Resolved (assuming you pick Destroy that is ) .

In my view, and that of many ITers, the last part of the game is not "just" a dream. That would imply that it was trivial. It is a battle, it just happens to be taking place within Shepard's mind. The outcome of which will determine if Shepard remains Shepard, or loses himself to the Reapers forever.

Modifié par Eryri, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:22 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The line "Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine" is credited to Object Rho in the game...  just sayin.'

The game also credits Legion dialogue to Legion.... before he was ever named Legion.

It also calls the catalyst "Child." Not exactly an accurate description.

In short, subtitles are not the best thing to go by.

Fact is, it was likely not exactly 2 days, but who's counting right?

Remember the ticker that was counting down the amount of time before the Reapers reach the Alpha Relay?

Ticker's reading at Shepard's arrival (lol) on The Project: 2 days, 3 hours, 25 minutes, *20 seconds.

Ticker's reading when Shepard wakes in med-bay: 1 hour, 56 minutes, *10 seconds.

*rounded-down.

The moment of Indoctrination isn't always (if ever) when they show the signs.  They wouldn't make for very good deep cover agents if that were the case.

Replay the audio logs from Arrival, and the Derelict Reaper. The Alliance team was showing signs. So did Cerberus.

Thing is, most folks don't know enough about the Reapers to know they're in the danger-zone of indoctrination.

[Indy_S]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

What were the Reaper's goals in that sense?

Surprisingly enough, they were trying to make a unicycle. But they misread the blueprints and now enforce a continuous cycle of galactic genocide trying to maintain the balance. They wanted Shepard's skin to make the leather seat.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Rhayak wrote...

Considering all the time he spent close to the Reapers and their tech, expecially in Arrival, and also that Indoctrination effects are cumulative, it can't be anything than a plot thing.

#Citation Needed.

[Rhayak]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Considering all the time he spent close to the Reapers and their tech, expecially in Arrival, and also that Indoctrination effects are cumulative, it can't be anything than a plot thing.

#Citation Needed.

Doesn't the codex say so?

Besides, even if they are not, he spent days unconscious right next to a huge Reaper device who indoctrinated a whole human outpost. And since no scientific or mystical reason whatsoever is given for Shepard's resilience, again, it has to be for the sake of the plot.

Modifié par Rhayak, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:29 .

[Indy_S]

Eryri wrote...

To offer my two cents, this is how I see it

Core conflict in ME1: Shepard versus Saren. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME2: Shepard versus Collectors. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME3: Shepard versus Reapers. Status: Resolved.
Core conflict in ME3(IT): Shepard versus Reapers Indoctrination. Status: Resolved (assuming you pick Destroy that is ) .

In my view, and that of many ITers, the last part of the game is not "just" a dream. That would imply that it was trivial. It is a battle, it just happens to be taking place within Shepard's mind. The outcome of which will determine if Shepard remains Shepard, or loses himself to the Reapers forever.

I see... Glad to know that indoctrination was my driving motivation for shooting all those dudes. It was good of me to fight to resolve the genophage plot line to provide backup for my fight against indoctrination. Fighting indoctrination really took a high point during the Thessia scene. /sarcasm

You see, the thing about the core conflict is that it drives the plot and a great deal of the actions characters take within it. Shepard versus Indoctrination... doesn't do that. Shepard versus the Reapers, though... The resolution sucks but it is resolved.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Rhayak wrote...

Doesn't the codex say so?

Not that I know of.

Besides, even if they are not, he spent days unconscious right next to a huge Reaper device who indoctrinated a whole human outpost. And since no scientific or mystical reason whatsoever is given for Shepard's resilience, again, it has to be for the sake of the plot.

Scroll up to my longer post above. It was two days. Not quite enough time, especially for someone as "special" as Shepard.