335 réponses à ce sujet

[CDR David Shepard]

"A lesser mind would have been utterly destroyed in the process. You must be remarkably strong willed, Commander."

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 16 janvier 2013 - 04:46 .

[Daniel_N7]

Restrider wrote...
(...) And if you want to discuss the possibility of indoctrination, join the IT group or go directly to this forum.
Sadly Evil Chris has stated that he does not want to see any IT discussions on the board anymore.

But the OP isn't raising the issue of IT. He's asking about indoctrination in the context of the current endings.

Now, I'm not a big fan of the canon endings as they stand but it seems plausible that Shepard is in fact going through the stages of indoctrination throughout the narrative of Mass Effect 3. The pivotal scene, at the Citadel chamber, reveals clear signs of what can be legitimately interpreted as either indoctrination signs or extreme mental weakness: the dark shadows, the wispering sounds, etc. Also, the fact that the indoctrinated Illusive Man is able to manipulate Shepard for a short time clearly exposes that there is an attempt to manipulate her (or him).

Unfortunately, the intentions behind these signs aren't clearly exposed in the end, which feeds the ground to speculation, not all benign as we know. Was Shepard being indoctrinated, was this a thread of the story that was disregarded by the writers in the end, was it bad (incomplete) writing? Watever it was, unless BioWare expands on this through DLC, we may never know.

Modifié par Daniel_N7, 16 janvier 2013 - 04:59 .

[CDR David Shepard]

Daniel_N7 wrote...

Restrider wrote...
(...) And if you want to discuss the possibility of indoctrination, join the IT group or go directly to this forum.
Sadly Evil Chris has stated that he does not want to see any IT discussions on the board anymore.

But the OP isn't raising the issue of IT. He's asking about indoctrination in the context of the current endings.

Now, I'm not a big fan of the canon endings as they stand but it seems plausible that Shepard is in fact going through the stages of indoctrination throughout the narrative of Mass Effect 3. The pivotal scene, at the Citadel chamber, reveals clear signs of what can be legitimately interpreted as either indoctrination signs or extreme mental weakness: the dark shadows, the wispering sounds, etc. Also, the fact that the indoctrinated Illusive Man is able to manipulate Shepard for a short time clearly exposes that there is an attempt to manipulate her (or him).

Unfortunately, the intentions behind these signs aren't clearly exposed in the end, which feeds the ground to speculation, not all benign as we know. Was Shepard being indoctrinated, was this a thread of the story that was disregarded by the writers in the end, was it bad (incomplete) writing? Watever it was, unless BioWare expands on this through DLC, we may never know.

This is my opinion on the ending and indoctrination.

Basically seeing the destruction of earth and having to run from the fight to actually save it (something he never had to do before) weighed heavily on his mind...and that allowed for them to slowly try to break him.,,but they still couldn't.

Finally...after he opened the citadel arms so the crucible could dock...he thought it was over. He had no reason to continue fighting physically or mentally.

This is when we finally get the full on indoctrination attempt...the whole scene with the starchild.

[Restrider]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

Daniel_N7 wrote...

Restrider wrote...
(...) And if you want to discuss the possibility of indoctrination, join the IT group or go directly to this forum.
Sadly Evil Chris has stated that he does not want to see any IT discussions on the board anymore.

But the OP isn't raising the issue of IT. He's asking about indoctrination in the context of the current endings.

Now, I'm not a big fan of the canon endings as they stand but it seems plausible that Shepard is in fact going through the stages of indoctrination throughout the narrative of Mass Effect 3. The pivotal scene, at the Citadel chamber, reveals clear signs of what can be legitimately interpreted as either indoctrination signs or extreme mental weakness: the dark shadows, the wispering sounds, etc. Also, the fact that the indoctrinated Illusive Man is able to manipulate Shepard for a short time clearly exposes that there is an attempt to manipulate her (or him).

Unfortunately, the intentions behind these signs aren't clearly exposed in the end, which feeds the ground to speculation, not all benign as we know. Was Shepard being indoctrinated, was this a thread of the story that was disregarded by the writers in the end, was it bad (incomplete) writing? Watever it was, unless BioWare expands on this through DLC, we may never know.

This is my opinion on the ending and indoctrination.

Basically seeing the destruction of earth and having to run from the fight to actually save it (something he never had to do before) weighed heavily on his mind...and that allowed for them to slowly try to break him.,,but they still couldn't.

Finally...after he opened the citadel arms so the crucible could dock...he thought it was over. He had no reason to continue fighting physically or mentally.

This is when we finally get the full on indoctrination attempt...the whole scene with the starchild.

I'd say this is a subform of IT.

[CDR David Shepard]

Restrider wrote...

CDR David Shepard wrote...

Daniel_N7 wrote...

Restrider wrote...
(...) And if you want to discuss the possibility of indoctrination, join the IT group or go directly to this forum.
Sadly Evil Chris has stated that he does not want to see any IT discussions on the board anymore.

But the OP isn't raising the issue of IT. He's asking about indoctrination in the context of the current endings.

Now, I'm not a big fan of the canon endings as they stand but it seems plausible that Shepard is in fact going through the stages of indoctrination throughout the narrative of Mass Effect 3. The pivotal scene, at the Citadel chamber, reveals clear signs of what can be legitimately interpreted as either indoctrination signs or extreme mental weakness: the dark shadows, the wispering sounds, etc. Also, the fact that the indoctrinated Illusive Man is able to manipulate Shepard for a short time clearly exposes that there is an attempt to manipulate her (or him).

Unfortunately, the intentions behind these signs aren't clearly exposed in the end, which feeds the ground to speculation, not all benign as we know. Was Shepard being indoctrinated, was this a thread of the story that was disregarded by the writers in the end, was it bad (incomplete) writing? Watever it was, unless BioWare expands on this through DLC, we may never know.

This is my opinion on the ending and indoctrination.

Basically seeing the destruction of earth and having to run from the fight to actually save it (something he never had to do before) weighed heavily on his mind...and that allowed for them to slowly try to break him.,,but they still couldn't.

Finally...after he opened the citadel arms so the crucible could dock...he thought it was over. He had no reason to continue fighting physically or mentally.

This is when we finally get the full on indoctrination attempt...the whole scene with the starchild.

I'd say this is a subform of IT.

You could say that.

I just don't agree with the original IT of Shepard actually being indoctrinated and everything that happened after the beam hit is a hallucination.

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:18 .

[Restrider]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

Restrider wrote...


I'd say this is a subform of IT.

It definitely is.

I just don't agree with the original IT of Shepard actually being indoctrinated and everything that happened after the beam hit is a hallucination.

IT does not state that, actually.
classic IT says after a certain point (Mako crash or Harbinger's beam among other possibilites) Shepard enters a hallucinatory state that is caused by Reaper influence and his overall exhaustion. Then in the final decision you either align yourself with the Reapers (Control/Synthesis) and you are indoctrinated or you stay true to your believes (Destroy and maybe even Refuse) and you break free (->Breath Scene).
Of course this leaves us without a proper conclusion to the Reaper War.

Another subtheory is the Waking Nightmare Theory, where Shepard sees hallucinations (like an overlay to his perception), but in the end, the endings really play out and the war is over.

[dorktainian]

see also the cerberus reaper theory (which makes a lot of sense )

[Ithurael]

MacroSpamMK wrote...

mackan__s wrote...

Some of you really need to see The Indoctrination Theory Documentary..

I have, and whilst it has many interesting points that did seem valid and make me reconsider, there is one major flaw that many others in this thread have pointed out.
If the IT is true, then we are not getting a conclusion to the Reaper conflict.

The victory is inferred by both the breath scene and the stargazer scene

[archangel1996]

Ithurael wrote...

MacroSpamMK wrote...

mackan__s wrote...

Some of you really need to see The Indoctrination Theory Documentary..

I have, and whilst it has many interesting points that did seem valid and make me reconsider, there is one major flaw that many others in this thread have pointed out.
If the IT is true, then we are not getting a conclusion to the Reaper conflict.

The victory is inferred by both the breath scene and the stargazer scene

Yeah, the same breath scene who emans the surviving of Shep? the same that is said impossible from Casper, oh and the same breath scene that clearly happens on Earth...how did Shep land on Earth BTW? The same breath scene that happens AFTER what Shepard may think he did well?
Daddy con you tell me another story about the Shepard?
With IT ME3 ending can succesfully hide all the issues in the game
Without, the ending is just another problem
To me, at least

Modifié par archangel1996, 16 janvier 2013 - 06:44 .

[Eryri]

archangel1996 wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

MacroSpamMK wrote...

mackan__s wrote...

Some of you really need to see The Indoctrination Theory Documentary..

I have, and whilst it has many interesting points that did seem valid and make me reconsider, there is one major flaw that many others in this thread have pointed out.
If the IT is true, then we are not getting a conclusion to the Reaper conflict.

The victory is inferred by both the breath scene and the stargazer scene

Yeah, the same breath scene who emans the surviving of Shep? the same that is said impossible from Casper, oh and the same breath scene that clearly happens on Earth...how did Shep land on Earth BTW? The same breath scene that happens AFTER what Shepard may think he did well?
Daddy con you tell me another story about the Shepard?
With IT ME3 ending can succesfully hide all the issues in the game
Without, the ending is just another problem
To me, at least

And the breath scene that may or may not appear depending on whether Shepard "saved" Anderson, for a few more minutes of life, just long enough to say goodbye, before activating the crucible. Which makes absolutely no sense when taken literally.

[ticklefist]

Just gonna shoehorn an opinion about something into this thread:

Jesus Christ did Indoctrination become a writers crutch in ME3, or what? What happened to well written and properly motivated villains? This Indoctrination crap Bioware relied on for this story is only one step ahead of Blizzard's lame villains, who are only evil because evil things are evil.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

Bingo. Shepard was never in one place at one time for very long, and that includes any sites that had reaper tech.

ticklefist wrote...

Just gonna shoehorn an opinion about something into this thread:

Jesus Christ did Indoctrination become a writers crutch in ME3, or what? What happened to well written and properly motivated villains? This Indoctrination crap Bioware relied on for this story is only one step ahead of Blizzard's lame villains, who are only evil because evil things are evil.

No. Indoctrination goes all the way back to ME1. Both Saren and Benezia were indoctrinated by Sovereign. The Collectors were being controlled by the General and it was being directly controlled by Harbinger. TIM was indoctrinated in ME3 in a similar fashion to Saren. Kai Leng was indoctrinated in a similar fashion to Benezia.

You could argue that indoctrination itself is a lame plot device. But you can't argue that it was ME3 exclusive.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:04 .

[dorktainian]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

Bingo. Shepard was never in one place at one time for very long, and that includes any sites that had reaper tech.

oh my gosh..  

[EpicBoot2daFace]

dorktainian wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

Bingo. Shepard was never in one place at one time for very long, and that includes any sites that had reaper tech.

oh my gosh..  

When was Shepard around repaer tech long enough to become indoctrinated? In Arrival, he was only exposed to the reaper artifact for a few minutes. The dead reaper corpes for maybe an hour.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:09 .

[dorktainian]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

Bingo. Shepard was never in one place at one time for very long, and that includes any sites that had reaper tech.

oh my gosh..  

When was Shepard around repaer tech long enough to become indoctrinated? In Arrival, he was only exposed to the reaper artifact for a few minutes. The dead reaper corpes for maybe an hour.

well....

he was reconstructed using reaper tech so i guess....always

**assuming control**  

Modifié par dorktainian, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:12 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

dorktainian wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

Bingo. Shepard was never in one place at one time for very long, and that includes any sites that had reaper tech.

oh my gosh..  

When was Shepard around repaer tech long enough to become indoctrinated? In Arrival, he was only exposed to the reaper artifact for a few minutes. The dead reaper corpes for maybe an hour.

well....

he was reconstructed using reaper tech so i guess....always..

Reaper tech? Do you have a source?

This is from the Mass Effect Wikipedia under Project Lazarus:

it involved attaching cybernetic implants to reconstruct the Commander's skeleton, reconstruction of the skin, and fluids to restart the blood flow and internal organs. However, the one thing that the Illusive Man refused to do was implant a control chip in the Commander's brain, fearing that it may affect Shepard's personality and abilities.

No mention of reaper tech. There was also no mention of reaper tech in the game when the topic of Project Lazarus is brought up.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:18 .

[archangel1996]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

Bingo. Shepard was never in one place at one time for very long, and that includes any sites that had reaper tech.

oh my gosh..  

When was Shepard around repaer tech long enough to become indoctrinated? In Arrival, he was only exposed to the reaper artifact for a few minutes. The dead reaper corpes for maybe an hour.

Yeah, and he was asleep for two days.......and his room mate was a reaper artifact

[dorktainian]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

Bingo. Shepard was never in one place at one time for very long, and that includes any sites that had reaper tech.

oh my gosh..  

When was Shepard around repaer tech long enough to become indoctrinated? In Arrival, he was only exposed to the reaper artifact for a few minutes. The dead reaper corpes for maybe an hour.

well....

he was reconstructed using reaper tech so i guess....always..

Reaper tech? Do you have a source?

This is from the Mass Effect Wikipedia under Project Lazarus:

it involved attaching cybernetic implants to reconstruct the Commander's skeleton, reconstruction of the skin, and fluids to restart the blood flow and internal organs. However, the one thing that the Illusive Man refused to do was implant a control chip in the Commander's brain, fearing that it may affect Shepard's personality and abilities.

No mention of reaper tech. There was also no mention of reaper tech in the game when the topic of Project Lazarus is brought up.

  

yep.  good eh.  


Well you only have to look at his husk eyes.  (same as TIMs)  but then again i suppose thats just coincidence?    reconstructed by the same people that husked their own soldiers.  yep they sound really trustworthy.     

or when he melts at the end...revealing underneath his skin he's just a husk....mmmm deffo not reaper tech.  

Modifié par dorktainian, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:26 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

archangel1996 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

Bingo. Shepard was never in one place at one time for very long, and that includes any sites that had reaper tech.

oh my gosh..  

When was Shepard around repaer tech long enough to become indoctrinated? In Arrival, he was only exposed to the reaper artifact for a few minutes. The dead reaper corpes for maybe an hour.

Yeah, and he was asleep for two days.......and his room mate was a reaper artifact

Hmm... I suppse the arguement could be made. However, is it possible that him being sedated prevented indoctrination or perhaps Harbinger didn't want Shepard indoctrinated. If we look at how indoctrination works, it does damage overtime. Maybe Harbinger wanted Shepard to not be indoctrinated and left sedated for study when the reapers finally arrived.

Otherwise, I don't see the point in moving him away from the artifact.

[Eryri]

And Miranda says she's ever worked with so many black boxes on a project. Even she doesn't know what was used to reanimate Shepard. It may have been Reaper tech, it may not. But who do we know, who's got a knack for reanimating dead or dying people by replacing their organic tissues with synthetics...?

[archangel1996]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Indoctrination is not instantaneous; it takes time to set in. That period of time is typically days of exposure.

Shepard was disconnected from the source of indoctrination ('Rho) in Arrival after two days.

Arrival was a close call, but it's safe to say he got out okay. And I doubt it is "built up" cumulatively.

Bingo. Shepard was never in one place at one time for very long, and that includes any sites that had reaper tech.

oh my gosh..  

When was Shepard around repaer tech long enough to become indoctrinated? In Arrival, he was only exposed to the reaper artifact for a few minutes. The dead reaper corpes for maybe an hour.

Yeah, and he was asleep for two days.......and his room mate was a reaper artifact

Hmm... I suppse the arguement could be made. However, is it possible that him being sedated prevented indoctrination or perhaps Harbinger didn't want Shepard indoctrinated. If we look at how indoctrination works, it does damage overtime. Maybe Harbinger wanted Shepard to not be indoctrinated and left sedated for study when the reapers finally arrived.

Otherwise, I don't see the point in moving him away from the artifact.

Well, look at Saren and TIM, there were indoctrinated for at least 30 years and indoctrination in the end suited them perfectly

Modifié par archangel1996, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:29 .

[Eryri]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Hmm... I suppse the arguement could be made. However, is it possible that him being sedated prevented indoctrination or perhaps Harbinger didn't want Shepard indoctrinated. 

"Struggle if you wish. Your mind will be mine." Harbinger's words relayed through Object Rho. It rather suggests that he does want Shepard indoctrinated.

[dorktainian]

control and synthesis endings. that is all.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Eryri wrote...

And Miranda says she's ever worked with so many black boxes on a project. Even she doesn't know what was used to reanimate Shepard. It may have been Reaper tech, it may not. But who do we know, who's got a knack for reanimating dead or dying people by replacing their organic tissues with synthetics...?

Good point. However, if this was the case Shepard would have been indoctrinated from the beginning of Mass Effect 2. He clearly wasn't.

Eryri wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Hmm... I suppse the arguement could be made. However, is it possible that him being sedated prevented indoctrination or perhaps Harbinger didn't want Shepard indoctrinated.

"Struggle if you wish. Your mind will be mine." Harbinger's words relayed through Object Rho. It rather suggests that he does want Shepard indoctrinated.

Harbinger wants Shepard alive. Indoctrination leads to severe brain damage and ultimately death. He tells the Collectors "Preserve Shepard's body if possible." < ----- suggests he wants him alive for study.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:33 .

[Eryri]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Eryri wrote...

And Miranda says she's ever worked with so many black boxes on a project. Even she doesn't know what was used to reanimate Shepard. It may have been Reaper tech, it may not. But who do we know, who's got a knack for reanimating dead or dying people by replacing their organic tissues with synthetics...?

Good point. However, if this was the case Shepard would have been indoctrinated from the beginning of Mass Effect 2. He clearly wasn't.

Not necessarily. Rana Thanoptis seemed perfectly fine when we met her in ME2. It was only during ME3 that her latent indoctrination manifested itself.

Besides the idea is that Shepard is in the process of being indoctrinated. Not that he already is completely under the Reaper's control.

Modifié par Eryri, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:34 .