335 réponses à ce sujet

[archangel1996]

Eryri wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Eryri wrote...

And Miranda says she's ever worked with so many black boxes on a project. Even she doesn't know what was used to reanimate Shepard. It may have been Reaper tech, it may not. But who do we know, who's got a knack for reanimating dead or dying people by replacing their organic tissues with synthetics...?

Good point. However, if this was the case Shepard would have been indoctrinated from the beginning of Mass Effect 2. He clearly wasn't.

Not necessarily. Rana Thanoptis seemed perfectly fine when we met her in ME2. It was only during ME3 that her latent indoctrination manifested itself.

Same with Saren and TIM

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Eryri wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Eryri wrote...

And Miranda says she's ever worked with so many black boxes on a project. Even she doesn't know what was used to reanimate Shepard. It may have been Reaper tech, it may not. But who do we know, who's got a knack for reanimating dead or dying people by replacing their organic tissues with synthetics...?

Good point. However, if this was the case Shepard would have been indoctrinated from the beginning of Mass Effect 2. He clearly wasn't.

Not necessarily. Rana Thanoptis seemed perfectly fine when we met her in ME2. It was only during ME3 that her latent indoctrination manifested itself.

Besides the idea is that Shepard is in the process of being indoctrinated. Not that he already is completely under the Reaper's control.

True. But at no point in time did Shepard show signs of indoctrination. He showed signs of PTSD, but that's entirely different.

[Eryri]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Harbinger wants Shepard alive. Indoctrination leads to severe brain damage and ultimately death. He tells the Collectors "Preserve Shepard's body if possible." < ----- suggests he wants him alive for study.

Rapid indoctrination leads to brain damage. TIM was (relatively) sane for 30 years after his initial exposure to the Reapers. Slow, patient indoctrination - the kind Harbinger might use if he did indeed want Shepard alive - is far less immediately destructive.

[Samtheman63]

they tried but they failed, i picked destroy

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Eryri wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Harbinger wants Shepard alive. Indoctrination leads to severe brain damage and ultimately death. He tells the Collectors "Preserve Shepard's body if possible." < ----- suggests he wants him alive for study.

Rapid indoctrination leads to brain damage. TIM was (relatively) sane for 30 years after his initial exposure to the Reapers. Slow, patient indoctrination - the kind Harbinger might use if he did indeed want Shepard alive - is far less immediately destructive.

I was actually unaware that he was exposed to the Reapers 30 years ago. Was this stated in the game or elsewhere?

[Eryri]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

True. But at no point in time did Shepard show signs of indoctrination. He showed signs of PTSD, but that's entirely different.

Actually, he doesn't show the classic sign of PTSD - aversion to the source of his trauma.

If Shepard was traumatised he'd be unable to stand the sight of Reapers, let alone fight them. Just as Kelly was unable to board the Normandy again after being abducted by the Collectors, and the Asari in Heurta was terrified of humans and unable to shower due to her experiences on the colony world.

Modifié par Eryri, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:42 .

[archangel1996]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Eryri wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Eryri wrote...

And Miranda says she's ever worked with so many black boxes on a project. Even she doesn't know what was used to reanimate Shepard. It may have been Reaper tech, it may not. But who do we know, who's got a knack for reanimating dead or dying people by replacing their organic tissues with synthetics...?

Good point. However, if this was the case Shepard would have been indoctrinated from the beginning of Mass Effect 2. He clearly wasn't.

Not necessarily. Rana Thanoptis seemed perfectly fine when we met her in ME2. It was only during ME3 that her latent indoctrination manifested itself.

Besides the idea is that Shepard is in the process of being indoctrinated. Not that he already is completely under the Reaper's control.

True. But at no point in time did Shepard show signs of indoctrination. He showed signs of PTSD, but that's entirely different.

www.youtube.com/watch
From 3:00 til the end.....what did the Rachni say? And at 3:31 SERVE US

[archangel1996]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Eryri wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Harbinger wants Shepard alive. Indoctrination leads to severe brain damage and ultimately death. He tells the Collectors "Preserve Shepard's body if possible." < ----- suggests he wants him alive for study.

Rapid indoctrination leads to brain damage. TIM was (relatively) sane for 30 years after his initial exposure to the Reapers. Slow, patient indoctrination - the kind Harbinger might use if he did indeed want Shepard alive - is far less immediately destructive.

I was actually unaware that he was exposed to the Reapers 30 years ago. Was this stated in the game or elsewhere?

Comic, the reaper artifact made his eyes like that
Saren too resisted for 30 years, and he became indoctrinated just trough meeting with an indoctrinated agent

Modifié par archangel1996, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:42 .

[dorktainian]

a refresher for you from the codex.

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

Modifié par dorktainian, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:42 .

[Eryri]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


I was actually unaware that he was exposed to the Reapers 30 years ago. Was this stated in the game or elsewhere?

In one of the comic books. TIM (or Jack Harper as he was then known) and his brother were excavating what turned out to be a reaper artifact. His brother touched it and immediately began transforming into a husk. TIM pulled him away, but received a "second hand" blast of indoctrination through his brother's body that gave him his trademark eyes.

[Neizd]

I wonder what happened to Shepard during arrival...

Random scientist: Hey we have Shepard here and we can do some tests on him for the reapers... but let's just leave him to rest, he must be tired.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

archangel1996 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Eryri wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Eryri wrote...

And Miranda says she's ever worked with so many black boxes on a project. Even she doesn't know what was used to reanimate Shepard. It may have been Reaper tech, it may not. But who do we know, who's got a knack for reanimating dead or dying people by replacing their organic tissues with synthetics...?

Good point. However, if this was the case Shepard would have been indoctrinated from the beginning of Mass Effect 2. He clearly wasn't.

Not necessarily. Rana Thanoptis seemed perfectly fine when we met her in ME2. It was only during ME3 that her latent indoctrination manifested itself.

Besides the idea is that Shepard is in the process of being indoctrinated. Not that he already is completely under the Reaper's control.

True. But at no point in time did Shepard show signs of indoctrination. He showed signs of PTSD, but that's entirely different.

www.youtube.com/watch
From 3:00 til the end.....what did the Rachni say? And at 3:31 SERVE US

Compelling evidence for sure. I've never seen this video. But if the dream sequences represent Shepard being slowly indoctrinated, why was he ever allowed to reach Earth, let alone the beam?

Eryri wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


I was actually unaware that he was exposed to the Reapers 30 years ago. Was this stated in the game or elsewhere?

In one of the comic books. TIM (or Jack Harper as he was then known) and his brother were excavating what turned out to be a reaper artifact. His brother touched it and immediately began transforming into a husk. TIM pulled him away, but received a "second hand" blast of indoctrination through his brother's body that gave him his trademark eyes.

At some point I'll have to read these comics and catch up on the back story. I always assumed he became indoctrinated by the reamins of the human reaper just outside his room.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:55 .

[Gervaise]

Something I wondered about is if something having Reaper Tech allows the Reapers to channel their influence through it without it being apparent to anyone. You see there was one piece of Reaper Tech with which Shepard was in virtually continual contact throughout ME2 and ME3 and that was EDI. It is not until we get to the Cerberus Base that we discover she was made up from the rogue Luna VI and bits of Sovereign. So would EDI know if some subliminal signal was connecting with her hardware? After all there must be a lot of signals coming through and she would only be interested in ones that were obviously hostile, since her primary function was to defend the ship and its personnel. Would she detect the sort of signal that gave Shepard the dreams as hostile? In fact would it even need to come from an external source? Was the indoctrination of the scientists on the "dead" Reaper in ME2 achieved by the Reaper shell itself emitting something or simply acting as an aeriel for an external transmission? If it was some property of the Reaper body that it could still emit after it was rendered inactive, then why shouldn't bits of Sovereign do the same? Shepard certainly thought so when he was in Bryson's lab in Leviathan and saw a piece of Sovereign there - his concern was that it had been properly shielded to protect people. EDI was never shielded in that way, although for the duration of ME2 she was shackled. If that also prevented the Sovereign signal from effecting the crew, then the situation in ME3 was entirely different since the shackles had been removed. That at least could account for why Shepard suddenly started having these dreams - the signal was probably not strong enough for true indoctrination but sufficient to weaken his defences.

Modifié par Gervaise, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:58 .

[ticklefist]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


You could argue that indoctrination itself is a lame plot device. But you can't argue that it was ME3 exclusive.

It wasn't my intention to say it was, just that it had gone full retard by the end.

Modifié par ticklefist, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:23 .

[evilgummybear]

im wondering if TIM was indoctrinated since ME2... i mean just look at his eyes, same as saren sort of.

[thehomeworld]

Using ME2 - Arrival BW was going that way to have shep being a sleeper agent and why not? It makes sense he was brought back using reaper tech, he's hackable, and being around reaper tech causes indoctrination even more so when one sleeps around it. If you know anything about brainwashing one of the key ingredients is to continue the mental assault via messages while your peeps sleep why? Because the brain doesn't defend itself when one is asleep it only defends itself when one is actively awake.

But when they rewrote ME3 they also wrote out the indoctrination.

There is still evidence in there the shep and tim moment being one of them. Now I also though while playing 3 during the geth scene he should've gotten hacked and had issues in that world he was after all in a computer world and dealing with reaper tech turns out I wasn't far off when looking at the original script the reason why I felt like there was removed tension between geth and shep as well as his reaper tech was because there was removed content we got the bland of the bland.

It sucks they wrote it out of the scene I would've like to take over playing as Garrus leading Tali and another squadmate as they race across the galaxy trying to get shep back since the reapers hacked or indoctrinated him to start destroying things you have to fight him and eventually hack him back to your side and Tali, EDI, and Legion would come up with safety programs to keep it from reoccurring to him. That woud've been a huge character development portion for shep and company.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:49 .

[thehomeworld]

evilgummybear wrote...

im wondering if TIM was indoctrinated since ME2... i mean just look at his eyes, same as saren sort of.

I don't think he was I do think he got indoctrinated by the tech inside him while 3 was occuring the problem was it was too rushed and they made him come off as crazy rataher then Saren's slow process.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

ticklefist wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


You could argue that indoctrination itself is a lame plot device. But you can't argue that it was ME3 exclusive.

It wasn't my intention to say it was, just that it had gone full retard by the end.

How? Indoctrination never changed.

[MegaSovereign]

Shepard is indoctrinating the Reapers.

[thehomeworld]

Gervaise wrote...

Something I wondered about is if something having Reaper Tech allows the Reapers to channel their influence through it without it being apparent to anyone. You see there was one piece of Reaper Tech with which Shepard was in virtually continual contact throughout ME2 and ME3 and that was EDI. It is not until we get to the Cerberus Base that we discover she was made up from the rogue Luna VI and bits of Sovereign. So would EDI know if some subliminal signal was connecting with her hardware? After all there must be a lot of signals coming through and she would only be interested in ones that were obviously hostile, since her primary function was to defend the ship and its personnel. Would she detect the sort of signal that gave Shepard the dreams as hostile? In fact would it even need to come from an external source? Was the indoctrination of the scientists on the "dead" Reaper in ME2 achieved by the Reaper shell itself emitting something or simply acting as an aeriel for an external transmission? If it was some property of the Reaper body that it could still emit after it was rendered inactive, then why shouldn't bits of Sovereign do the same? Shepard certainly thought so when he was in Bryson's lab in Leviathan and saw a piece of Sovereign there - his concern was that it had been properly shielded to protect people. EDI was never shielded in that way, although for the duration of ME2 she was shackled. If that also prevented the Sovereign signal from effecting the crew, then the situation in ME3 was entirely different since the shackles had been removed. That at least could account for why Shepard suddenly started having these dreams - the signal was probably not strong enough for true indoctrination but sufficient to weaken his defences.

\\


To me BW just over looked her being a made of reaper tech and so does shep. I hated how he wasn't even remotely concerned about this he didn't even think that if reaper tech was used in making the ship/EDI then Tim more then likely used the same tech to make him? A huge question point for Miranda to demand the list of magical ingrediants to his revial was missed.

Then agian in ME3 not only does shep get confirmation he's got reaper tech in him but the very code they used to keep themselves in order he has inside his own body and at no time does he say Miranda WTF did you do to me?! Even when she gives him a golden oppurtinity to interogate her when she says how sorry she was over the whole not used chip deal.

EDI and Shep were both walking liabilities to the operation they were spearheading and not only do they not care but the reapers seem equally as daft for not using it against them. I don't think either of them would've been made aware if they were indoctrinating the crew by proxy. EDI didn't know till the last few seconds that the collectors were broadcasting the IFF and I think this would be something equally as overlooked by her similar to how people don't think about breathing they would just naturally indoctrinate people hence why the crew is so loyal even to a douche shep who doesn't deserve it.

Its a very intersting thing for the dreams but being both shep and EDI have reaper tech in them I don't think there needs to be any signal sent to Shep to make him have bad dreams. I also don't belive the reoccuring dream with the child is anything else but his own guilt. Reapers are known to show dreams of the soon to be thralls living loved ones they show these living people dying and say you can stop it if you help us just give up control so the thrall does this. Reapers would never show a potential thrall the dead unless they were promissing to bring them back and this strategy would only work if the thrall had a higher link a dead person then any living person which would be very rare because if the person had that much feeling for the dead person they probably would've killed themselves shortly after that person's passing to be with them.

We also have no dreams from the crew no one else save shep is suffering from nightmares we also know if a group of people are pickd to be thralls they will all have nightmares of their living loved ones dying and the reapers again saying we can save them if you join us. EDI could've been doing this to them without her knowing about it possibly as a side effect of unchaining her but BW didn't take this route. I guess BW thought all this indoctrination stuff if not done poorly (like the staff at Lev's mining base) then it was too complicated for new players to understand so they wrote it all out BW left many gaps for indoctrination and then chose not to utilize them.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Eryri wrote...

Rana seemed fine for the 2 years after her exposure to Sovereign before her little murder-suicide spree.

That's why deep cover agents are effective, they don't show signs until they need to.  It doesn't mean they aren't Indoctrinated way before that time.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Aaleel wrote...

Because it would make all Shepard's the same. All Shepard's didn't do Arrival, all Shepards didn't take the loss of the Virmire squadmate the same. All Shepards didn't lose people on the suicide mission, and those who lost people did not take it the same. Mental make up and fatigue is a part of indoctrination as well.

People always complain about having their Shepard and their decisions mattering, but then turn around and want to be railroaded into one ending with an indoctrinated Shepard. I just don't get it.

It would not make all Shepards the same.  All Shepards get beamed by Harbinger... but like Indoctrination, that's just circumstance... not what the actual ending and choices can be.  Indoctrination can be fought (and perhaps even beaten with the right ending and full access to Reaper technology). 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...

About Object Rho: It's not a cannon event, so Shepard couldn't be Indocrinated. He could simply skip Arrival. Then the Alliance send Marines

Arrival was meant to be a canon event (as designed by Bioware).  They allow Shepards to not have this, but the whole point of Arrival (And LotSB) was to officially bridge ME2 into ME3.

[BleedingUranium]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Compelling evidence for sure. I've never seen this video. But if the dream sequences represent Shepard being slowly indoctrinated, why was he ever allowed to reach Earth, let alone the beam?

Because being in the process of being indoctrinated is not the same actaully being indoctrinated. It's the difference between dying and being dead, or the difference between being tortured and the moment you break.